Something you wrote 4 years ago.

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VanCanada

Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#16  Post by VanCanada » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:37 am

Michael Davis, John Austin, and David Partridge wrote:Vitamin C forms complexes with metals, even those which it is capable of reducing, such as iron or copper. It is a potentially bidentate ligand...
... the complexes formed are weaker than they should be in comparison to the complexes of similar chelating ligands...
... such complexes are formed in alkaline solution.
- Quoted from the book Vitamin C: Its Chemistry and Biochemistry published by the Royal Society of Chemistry (UK) on page 133 of the paperback, under the section title Reactions with Metal Ions, by Michael B Davis, John Austin, and David A Partridge

Andrew Hall Cutler wrote:(Edit)...what is a chelator is determined by the competitive equilibrium in the solution in question.

What they said [Davis, Austin and Partride quoted just above] is vitamin C is a weak chelator (as are all the nonsulfur/selenium amino acids). In solutions with a lot of amino acids, proteins, sulfur bearing compounds, etc. like blood plasma or cytosol vitamin C is not a chelator for heavy metals.
-Quoted from http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/message/52840



ofonorow wrote:We have had this discussion previously, and you are still incorrect. Vitamin C fulfills all the common requirements of a "chelator" according to the strict definition. I supplied the references previously at this forum. The only "new" piece of information (from Phil Bates) is that perhaps only the ascorbic acid form should be considered as a chelator, because any mineral ascorbate is already bound to a mineral.
If you want to argue with Phil Bates, I'll pass it along, as his arguments (and the in vivo experiment) can be found in this topic
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9957
Please don't pass along anything to Mr. Bates. Debating this topic with one fool is enough for me, thank you very much. And even that is getting old fast.

It might be one thing to debate the pharmacokinetics of vitamin C with someone who doesn't understand what competitive equilibrium means. But since Cutler's explanation above has already been posted here in another thread, I'm beginning to see that what we have here is someone who remains militantly ignorant of the science, a willful blindness if you may. This is precisely what we loathe to see in someone dispensing medical advice.

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#17  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:13 am

So what is your (Cutler's) argument? It vitamin C a weak chelator, or not a chelator? I am arguing that it is a chelator. But I agree that it is difficult arguing with someone who doesn't understand what they are quoting.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

VanCanada

Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#18  Post by VanCanada » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:51 am

"(Is) vitamin C a weak chelator, or not a chelator?" It's both.

"So what is your (Cutler's) argument?" I just quoted you the argument, just above.


Sometimes ascorbic acid acts as a weak chelator, but who among us really care what happens between ascorbic acid and heavy metals in a petri dish? Do you Owen? Do you think Linus Pauling would have cared?

I have suggested the following two things to you before. Let me remind you:
(a) Find a Ph.D. in chemistry (any one will do I believe) and have them try to explain the biochemistry involved in this chelation topic, and

(b) Read Andrew Hall Cutler's books.

If I could add a third suggestion it would be to stop posting things outside your personal experience or things not supportable by the science. Otherwise it's just garbage in, garbage out. When you synthesize the work of Pauling, Klenner, Cathcart, and so on, hats off to you. When you stray from the garden path, I'll let you know about it because this forum is too important for me to do otherwise.

Good luck.

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#19  Post by Steve Brown » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:09 am

Saw wrote:I've always had the impression that all vitamin c taken orally (ascorbic,ascorbate) was released into the blood stream as ascorbate. Anyone care to clarify this for me???


The ascorbate ion is the negative portion of the vitamin C molecule. It has the chemical formula C6H7O6-, the "-" indicating it is a negatively charged anion. It normally does not exist by itself in isolation, but rather is bound to, or at least associated with, a positively-charged ion or "cation." For ascorbic acid, the cation is H+, a hydrogen atom without an electron, so it really is just a proton. So the chemical formula for ascorbic acid is C6H8O6. For sodium ascorbate, the cation is Na+, a sodium atom without the outer electron. So the chemical formula for sodium ascorbate is NaC6H7O6. In solution, the ions can dissociate, so in the case of ascorbic acid you have H+ and C6H7O6-, and in the case of sodium ascorbate you have Na+ and C6H7O6-. Ascorbic acid entering the bloodstream is likely to react with the bicarbonate buffering system, exchanging the H+ for Na+, becoming sodium ascorbate. This is what happens when you mix ascorbic acid and sodium bicarbonate in water. All of the fizzing is CO2 being released from sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) as the ascorbic acid exchanges H+ for Na+, becoming sodium ascorbate, and the H+ combines with the HCO3 making H2O and CO2.

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#20  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:38 am

vancanada wrote:(Is) vitamin C a weak chelator, or not a chelator?" It's both.


So we are in agreement and I don't understand your rant? You started by saying vitamin C is not a chelator, and I corrected you.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

VanCanada

Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#21  Post by VanCanada » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:46 am

Interesting how you want to label a very polite post as a rant for merely correcting a factually incorrect (and possibly intellectually dishonest?) piece of information.

If people believe you, they can fail to take proper measures to chelate themselves. If people don't believe you, you could be undermining Pauling's work and all the other great minds in the field of orthomolecular medicine.

If we both agree that vitamin C is both not a chelator and a weak chelator, depending on the environment it finds itself in, then why not specify that in your posts. Instead, what I observe from your writings, is a bait and switch game you are playing with your unsuspecting readers.

I don't put up with bait and switch from big drug companies and I'm certainly not going to from a Ph.D. in computer science like you, even if you otherwise seem to be doing good things for the common man.

In vitro studies and chemical knowledge should be directed at in vitro topics. In vivo studies for in vivo topics. It's not difficult to be clear when you are using the former to help indirectly support the latter.

Some question for you, Owen:
(1). How in the world did you come to be awarded an N.D. degree and by whom? I'm serious. Please tell us the story about this.

(2). What does Dr. Thomas Levy say about ascorbic acid chelating heavy metals in the human body? If he agrees with you then why is this amazing ability of ascorbic acid not mentioned once in his 2002 book Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins?

(3). Who else supports your very questionable contention? Linus Pauling? Klenner? Cathcart? Dr. Hugh Riordan? Cheraskin? Pfeiffer? Hoffer? Irwin Stone? R.J. Williams? Ely? Dr. Bush? Hickey? Any, and I mean any Ph.D. in chemistry, biochemistry or biophysics in the whole world?

(4) Have you even asked any of them? If you haven't asked, why not?

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#22  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 am

VC - You are still making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I once called vitamin C a chelator. You said it wasn't. That is the scope of my argument.

Vitamin C *is* a chelator, and you/Cutler obviously agree.

I have not stated that Ascorbate is a weak, or strong or super-strong chelator, only that it obviously fits the common definition. It attaches to varoius metals all the time as they are expelled in the urine. This (obviously true) claim seems to provoke you no end, and your pseudo scientific counter arguments make no sense to me.

But I do thank you. I just finished reviewing Levy's material on vitamin C and mercury in the original 2002 edition of Curing the Incurable, pages 279 to 285. And it is clear that while vitamin C has a STRONG effect on neutralizing mercury toxicity, the chelation effect is minor or minimal, or at least, the mercury winds up in the feces, not the urine. I'll quote Levy's opinion that supports your view from page 283 (original edition.)


Levy wrote:Because vitamin C has been so effective in clinically reducing the toxicity of mercury, many have just assumed that vitamin C chelates (binds) the mercury and hastens its urinary excretion from the body. However, this does not appear to be the case. Dirks, et al. (1994) examined the urinary excretion of mercury from the body after the intravenous administration of vitamin C. They found that infusions of as much as 60,000 mg of vitamin C did not result in any significant increase of mercury excretion in the urine, although there was a small, statistically insignificant increase. Both mercuricion (inorganic mercury) and methylmerucry (organic mercury) are excreted preferentially into the bile rather than the urine (references), and a significant portion of bile excretions eventually ends up in the feces.


But based on the evidence, whether C's value in mercury toxicity is because of its "chelation properties" or something else (e.g. neutralizing toxic mercury) it has value in mercury poisoning. What the research these pages describe reminded me is that if one has mercury toxicity, there is NO BETTER substance known for counteracting its effects in the human body than Vitamin C. However, adding Alpha Lipoic Acid, seems to enhance the amount of mercury expelled.

Some interesting quotes:


Levy wrote:The totality of the evidence cited from the literature strongly supports the ability of vitamin C to be highly effective in neutralizing the toxicity of different mercurial compounds. The ability of vitamin C to protect against the negative clinical effects of mercury toxicity is clear and straightforward. The evidence also suggests that vitamin C does not play a significant role in the acclerated excretion of these compounds even thought it makes their storage forms far less toxic.


Huggins and Levy (1999) repeatedly observed that ability of vitamin C infusions from 35,000 to 50,000 mg to lessen and often completely block any of the acute toxic effects of mercury when amalgam fillings were being removed. (note:Lower doses were not as effective...)

The empirical observations of Huggins and Levy noted above should come as no surprise in light of the significant research already performed on mercury toxicity and vitamin C.

Earlier investigators established that vitamin C was highly clinically protective against the toxicity of mercury... Vauthey (1951) working with guinea pigs found a certi dose of mercury cyanide that killed 100% of the guinea pigs within one hour of injection. However, when he kept the guinea pigs on a large dose of vitamin C prior to mercury imjections, 40% of then survived...

Etc.


Just as Klenner had demonstrated with so many different infectious diseases, the optimal effects of vitamin C in mercury poisoning depended on both the size of the dose as well as the duration of the administration.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

VanCanada

Please stick to info. that has been verified scientifically

Post Number:#23  Post by VanCanada » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:06 pm

>> "ofonorow": I once called vitamin C a chelator. You said it wasn't...

If you are speaking about in vitro experiments then specify that in your posts. Don't ever try to pull a bait and switch on us when people's health and lives are at stake. It undermines one's credibilty, obviously. You do not have enough grounding in chemistry and basic science to be giving advice about chelation, A.L.A., and other topics.


>> "ofonorow": Vitamin C *is* a chelator, and you/Cutler obviously agree.

What part of the following quote is it that you DON'T understand: "In solutions with a lot of amino acids, proteins, sulfur bearing compounds, etc. like blood plasma or cytosol vitamin C is not a chelator for heavy metals." ?


>> "ofonorow": But I do thank you. I just finished reviewing Levy's material on vitamin C and mercury in the original 2002 edition of Curing the Incurable, pages 279 to 285. And it is clear that while vitamin C has a STRONG effect on neutralizing mercury toxicity...

That is agreed. Vitamin C helps via its antioxidant properties and in other ways.


>> "ofonorow": ...the chelation effect is minor or minimal...

This is sophistry. Why not instead try saying "non-existent" in blood plasma? Your Levy quotes are fine, but none of them refer to chelation.

You seems to have no idea about basic concepts such as competitive equilibrium. Which university(ies) did you attend? Was your N.D. degree awarded as an honorary degree? If so, from where?



>> "ofonorow": However, adding Alpha Lipoic Acid, seems to enhance the amount of mercury expelled.

I have made it known long ago that your misinformation regarding A.L.A. is putting at risk the health and lives of the general public. The fact that you not only recant your previous error in light of the science, but also continue posting the misinformation speaks very poorly of you, Owen.

You are implying here that one should use the A.L.A. dosing regimen found in your dangerous brain detox protocol. If not, the mere fact that you mention NO dosing regimen is almost as bad; it is error by omission. People who are regular readers here know to refer to Andy Cutler's protocol for safe A.L.A. dosing.

By doing that, you are painting all the good vitamin C and cortisol information here in a very poor light. Has that been your intention all along? To mix up your readers? To lead them astray one step at a time?

Please stick to information that has been verified scientifically.

Thank you for your attention to these points and for answering the few questions I have written above.

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#24  Post by Bossman » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:15 am

.

As a bystander on this very valuable forum, I am sorry to read the previous post. This is not good for the reputation of the forum and our trust in the information posted here.
I am not chosing sides, but just hope that the forum administrators assure that the information posted by them is scientifically correct and unbiased. If they are not an expert in the specific field they should seek advice from an expert before replying to a question.

VanCanada

Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#25  Post by VanCanada » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:34 pm

Dear Owen,

Ignoring pertinent questions posted to you will not make them go away. I repeat...

"Which university(ies) did you attend for your Ph.D. and N.D. degrees (if you in fact hold those)? Was your N.D. degree awarded as an honorary degree? If so, from where?"

Thank you for your kind attention to these questions
.

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#26  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:24 am

VanCanada, here is the basic problem I have with your many posts. No, lets put it this way: You don't seem to provide useful information from your own experience. For example, if you had cured your own mercury poisoning using Cultler's protocol. That would be valuable information and we could query you about it and learn from your personal experience. (If you have, I'm sorry, I missed your post on you yourself using Culter's protocol.)

Or lets say that you had personally felt you had been "poisoned" by Alpha Lipoic Acid, or even knew someone personally who had, then we could discuss it. (Again, if you have personal experience such as this, or even have a friend or relative with this experience, I missed it.)

Instead, you seem to lack real personal knowledge of these matters, but post information from other sources. So there is really no intelligent way to discuss it with you. You are a middle man, and your attitude about Alpha Lipoic Acid is ludicrous on its face. (i.e. that I am potentially causing great harm recommending or not cautioning about ALA use.) That is my lay opinion. Nothing you have provided, other than making the claim about me, is persuasive regarding ALA.

Yes , we have noticed that several people at this form have reported "trouble" taking Alpha Lipoic Acid when dealing with things like mercury, but they don't die. They don't seem to get that sick, they simply stop taking it and try something else. As you must know, the mitochondria in all our cells are making lipoic acid all the time. If the issue is dosage, where is the evidence?

We are happy to have posters with differing opinions. And your opinion seems to be, what, that I am potentially "hurting" people by recommending that they take Alpha Lipoic Acid.

My opinion is that there are people who can be harmed by not taking Alpha Lipoic Acid, especially cancer patients using intravenous vitamin C, and Diabetics. (We also know from Dr. Ames, that there are repeatable experiments that show ALA is part of a "rejuvenation" tonic with cartinine. Old mice become young in these experiments.)

Now I do see that the Riordan clinic is now recommending ALA on a "case by case" basis, and while I find nothing in writing, you might call them and find out why - and report back. What is the reason they might hesitate giving someone ALA.

My background and training is largely irrelevant. I freely say that for the most part, I simply parrot Linus Pauling. (These days, I parrot a few others.) I believe your attempt to distract attention from the arguments is another attempt at obfuscation. We are here to help people and to debate. What I say/propose/opine on is generally not what people hear from highly educated medical doctors. That much is obvious. I can be wrong. We can all be wrong. The beauty of Linus Pauling is that I can count the number of errors I know he made on one hand. The beauty of this forum is that our errors are usually discovered quickly by someone "out there."
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#27  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:44 pm

Somewhere, VC posed a question asking for references that vitamin C is a chelator.

Hunting for something else, found this video on the subject. Maybe Cutler should watch this and comment?


Dr. Russell Jaffe discusses Vitamin C and heavy metal detoxification (1 hour +)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibz0IHGNCCU

vitamin c behaves differently in test tube and in the body.

Vitamin C (as ascorbate) binds to (picks up and removes from body) (first) lead -> then Mercury -> Arsenic -> Cadmium -> Nickel -> Beryllium -> Calcium -> copper -> magnesium then zinc based on published studies in physical chemistry!!

(We should revisit the discussion about copper loss! People without the other heavy metals could, in theory stand to lose Calcium, copper, magnesium and zinc! But only people who don't have any of the heavier metals, e.g. lead, mercury, arsenic, etc. )


Table of how much ascorbate is required per heavy metal.

1 mg ascorbate binds to ... 20.0 mcg Hg (!!!)

General rule. 10 mcg of a Toxic Mineral per 1000 mg of ascorbate over what a person needs for normal metabolism

2 g of ascorbate per day will account for the daily expected load of toxic materials
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#28  Post by skyorbit » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:58 pm

ofonorow wrote: (We also know from Dr. Ames, that there are repeatable experiments that show ALA is part of a "rejuvenation" tonic with cartinine. Old mice become young in these experiments.)


It's interesting that you'd say this in light of our current thread on GSH. Dr levy states in his GSH book that ALA and Carnitine together have been documented numerous times to increase GSH levels. Perhaps increasing GSH levels, is the reason this combo is a rejuvenation tonic.

I'm curious what the dosages are in those experiments.

TRacy

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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#29  Post by ofonorow » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:02 am


Fascinating Life Extension Interview with Bruce Ames
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2011/aug2011_Interview-with-Dr-Bruce-Ames_01.htm?source=search&key=Bruce%20Ames

Dr. Bruce Ames is devoted to uncovering strategies to reverse the aging process, primarily by identifying the underlying mechanisms of degenerative disease. Best known for his groundbreaking research on the mitochondria, Dr. Ames’s lab was the first to document the synergy of lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine for optimizing mitochondrial function.


Looking for dosages. Looks like THE paper
Feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid to old rats significantly improves metabolic function while decreasing oxidative stress
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/4/1870.full.pdf

Oxidative stress mentioned (if not the measure!)

Maybe someone can check my calculations from the dosages given to the rats? Looks like a lot!
A-carnitine ALCAR Supplementation. Old and young rats were given a 1.5% (wtvol; pH adjusted to 6) solution of ALCAR in their drinking water and allowed to drink ad libitum for 1 mo before death and hepatocyte isolation. Both young and old rats typically drank 20 mlrat per day (data not shown), which provided a daily ALCAR dose of 0.75 gkg body wt per day for old rats and 1.2 gkg body wt per day for young rats. All animal experiments were done with appropriate Animal Use Committee clearances.

LA (Lipoic Acid) Supplementation. Young and old rats were given LA [0.5% (wtwt)] mixed into the AIN-93M chow (Dyets, Bethlehem, PA) for 2 weeks before death. Unsupplemented animals were fed
Purina rodent chow and water ad libitum. The pellets were made into a mush and fed to some young and old rats for 2 weeks before cell isolation. Both young and old rats typically ate 15
grat per day (data not shown), which provides a daily LA dose of 0.12 gkg body weight for young rats and 0.075 gkg body weight for old rats.


Changed from original posting.

The paper reversed the order of (young/old) dosages in the discussion.. (reposted)

YOUNG ALC - 1.2 LA - .12
OLD ALD - 0.75 LA - .075

Ratio ALC/LA YOUNG 1.2 / .12 = 10
Ratio ALC/LA OLD .75 / .075 = 10

But is that REALLY 750 mg per kilo of body weight???? Take a 70 Kilogram man. Does this really mean that we'd need .75 * 70 or 52 grams !? of acetyl-l-carnitine? And 5.25 grams of lipoic acid?!? Not to mention expense...

If we work backwards, and consider the maximum allowable dosage of Lipoic Acid to be 600 mg, than implies we need 6000 mg of A-L-carnitine daily. And we do have that $33 blood test of "oxidative stress..."

For more, you might go to Life Extension (lef.org) and search for Ames/ALA, e.g.

http://www.lef.org/search/?q=Bruce%20Ames%20Alpha%20Lipoic%20Acid%20and%20Carnitine

and you will find LEF articles such as


Reducing Aging Markers with Lipoic Acid
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/jun2008_Reducing-Aging-Markers-With-Lipoic-Acid_01.htm?source=search&key=Bruce%20Ames%20Alpha%20Lipoic%20Acid%20and%20Carnitine

R-Dihydro-Lipoic Acid The Optimal Form of Lipoic Acid
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/feb2005_report_lipoic_02.htm?source=search&key=Bruce%20Ames%20Alpha%20Lipoic%20Acid%20and%20Carnitine

Alpha Lipoic Acid, Acetyl-L-Carnitine and Carnosine
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/sep2003_report_alpha_01.htm?source=search&key=Bruce%20Ames%20Alpha%20Lipoic%20Acid%20and%20Carnitine
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Re: Something you wrote 4 years ago.

Post Number:#30  Post by skyorbit » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:32 pm

Thank you,

Tracy


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