My story, and questions on AA/SA

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My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#1  Post by blueleaf1 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:06 am

First of all, long time lurker first time poster. Have enjoyed reading all your posts and insight for a while but never really got off my ass to register until now. First off, I’m a healthy 24 year old male and last year I got my first cold sore. I was completely terrified and wanted to get my body as possibly outbreak free as I could get it. This is when I started mega dosing C

Now I don’t get frequent outbreaks but the Vit C has probably helped me with that. Let me explain- as I mentioned last year I got my first cold sore on my chin. It left a nasty scar on my chin/beard area. Most times everything is fine but sometimes I can start to feel a bit of tingling and the area will start to look red like a cold sore is going to pop out. So far it has done this maybe 3 times within the year. 2 of the times I suppressed it, but 1 time it came out and boy was it nasty.

In an effort to get my body outbreak free I have honestly tried everything under the sun (other than taking doctor anti-viral prescribed drugs which I feel will just make the situation worse long term)
To let you guys have an idea of what I have tried- Tee tree oil (external), cat’s claw, Echinacea, astralagus, reishi mushroom, aloe vera (internal + topically), epicor, gluathonine, alpha lipoic acid, olive leaf, garlic oil, zinc, vitamins B,E,D3 (I have read a post here about another poster who takes huge amounts of d3 for outbreaks like 50,000iu? I’m scared to do that as I’ve seen people online complaining that d3 was horrid for their outbreaks and led them to much more frequent outbreaks after starting any type of d3 mega dosing). I’m sure I’m missing some but you get the point. I absolutely hate this virus!

So all of the above treatments have come and went with nothing particularly standing out to me in effectiveness ( I dose them with assigned dosages before increasing and usually always finish a whole bottle). The one thing that I have constantly done is mega dose C and recently Lypo C. Obviously I don’t need to explain the benefits of that to you guys. Lypo C has helped me notice a change in my body, but not a LOT directly pertaining to the HSV. I have taken Lypo C in many different ways, but it still didn’t give me the immediate relief I was looking for when I started to get a tingle/redness. I tried combining lypo c with my usual vit c dosage in many ways suggested on this forum. 5 packs at once as suggested by Owen, 3x2packs spaced throughout the day. Ultimately it has become expensive for me to continue without seeing the results I needed, so right now I am on 2 packs per day (1 morning, 1 night) until I can get my ultrasonic cleaner and then make my own. Once I do that I am excited about taking 15g+ lypo per day at a much lower cost.

From the start, I was taking sodium ascorbate- 15g (3x 5g) on normal days and 30g (6x 5g) when I felt an outbreak coming on. I mean, it’s helped but not to the extent I thought mega dosing would be able to help me crush this virus. I was taking SA because I thought that it would not make my body as acidic as mega dosing AA, and got this idea since I read Linus Pauling buffered his own C. However I have started to read that AA only makes you urine acidic but not your body? If this was the case why would Pauling buffer his C? I actually just came to the realization last night that my ‘mega dosing’ was probably relatively weak since I see that some people state SA is ½ as potent as AA. So even on an outbreak I was taking 30g SA, that’s only 15g AA. Since someone can take up to 200g on mono, is my main problem that I was using SA instead of AA and the dosage was not enough?

Would love to continue this discussion, I have so many questions and really want to learn more about how I can optimize C
Last edited by blueleaf1 on Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#2  Post by blueleaf1 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:10 am

I should add to my treatment list that I ingest and apply extra virgin coconut oil regularly. That has probably helped my health in some way, but not herpes.

Also, Lysine did nothing for me. Absolutely nothing... I've tried it at dosages of 5-10g when I feel the virus coming on, but no help from Lysine at all

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:19 am

I've tried it at dosages of 5-10g when I feel the virus coming on, but no help from Lysine at all


The reason you see lysine in every drug store is because of research at the University of Chicago that found lysine to be a strong anti-viral. Instead of trying to use it after you begin to feel the outbreak (should be using vitamin C like this), why not take a smaller, regular dose of lysine every day? A dose of prevention. (You'll also protect yourself from future heart problems!)
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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#4  Post by blueleaf1 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:25 am

ofonorow wrote:
I've tried it at dosages of 5-10g when I feel the virus coming on, but no help from Lysine at all


The reason you see lysine in every drug store is because of research at the University of Chicago that found lysine to be a strong anti-viral. Instead of trying to use it after you begin to feel the outbreak (should be using vitamin C like this), why not take a smaller, regular dose of lysine every day? A dose of prevention. (You'll also protect yourself from future heart problems!)


Owen.... you are the man... have read much of your work on here

anyways, the lysine yea I suppose I could try that but my main focus is on the C. Also I read somewhere continuous lysine intake over 6 months is bad or something?

But yea, any thoughts on my first message?

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#5  Post by Jacquie » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:46 pm

Are you taking vitamin C to bowel tolerance? C isn't one-size-fits-all; luckily your bowel tolerance will tell you what your body needs on a day-to-day basis. Some people have high toxin loads, or allergies, or other large drains on their C levels, and for them 15 or 20 grams of SA, AA, or even lypo, won't be enough.

But lysine really is the key to suppressing herpes viruses (and only herpes viruses, according to the evidence I've seen). It's just that, like all things, the dose really matters. Consider vitamin C: 1 gram a day won't cure a cold, but higher doses will. And it's not only the size of the dose, but the frequency. Like C, you have to dose lysine correctly, if you want it to work against herpes outbreaks.

You said you took 5-10 grams - is that all at once? Spread out over several days? Also, as Owen said, you might need a maintenance dose to prevent outbreaks. Lysine certainly won't hurt you - it's an essential amino acid.

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#6  Post by blueleaf1 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:36 pm

Jacquie wrote:Are you taking vitamin C to bowel tolerance? C isn't one-size-fits-all; luckily your bowel tolerance will tell you what your body needs on a day-to-day basis. Some people have high toxin loads, or allergies, or other large drains on their C levels, and for them 15 or 20 grams of SA, AA, or even lypo, won't be enough.

But lysine really is the key to suppressing herpes viruses (and only herpes viruses, according to the evidence I've seen). It's just that, like all things, the dose really matters. Consider vitamin C: 1 gram a day won't cure a cold, but higher doses will. And it's not only the size of the dose, but the frequency. Like C, you have to dose lysine correctly, if you want it to work against herpes outbreaks.

You said you took 5-10 grams - is that all at once? Spread out over several days? Also, as Owen said, you might need a maintenance dose to prevent outbreaks. Lysine certainly won't hurt you - it's an essential amino acid.


Hey Jacquie,

Yes, I'm taking C to bowel tolerance I definately have experimented with dosages and found typically when I'm fine around 5g of SA in one dose and 10g in times of imbalance hit bowel tolerance

Is it true SA is only 1/2 as potent as AA in terms of what it does for your body? and what about too much AA making your body acidic? that's the main reason I have been using SA over AA. As i posted, if this is the case I'm worried since even my "high" dosage of 30g SA on days of imbalance would only equal 15g of AA.... and we know that 15g of AA probably isnt enough to do THAT much to the virus.

Also I have read on tons of herpes boards etc that high long term lysine dosage (i think like 2-3g+ per day) for months/years can cause liver damage or something like that?

re- lysine. I know many people have said it works but honestly it just didn't work for me. I tried 2g-3g per day as a preventative.

When outbreaks came on as I said 5-10g this was all spread out either like 2g at a time. I even tried some remedies such as crushing it up and mixing it with AA and drinking it every hour. None of that made a huge difference for me, although at the time I was experimenting with lysine I was not as heavily dosing on C as I am now.

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:17 am

Is it true SA is only 1/2 as potent as AA in terms of what it does for your body? and what about too much AA making your body acidic? that's the main reason I have been using SA over AA.


Well, yes for fighting infections, so I guess this qualifies. Ascorbic acid can squelch two free radicals.. , but SA is already attached to the sodium ion.

Ascorbic acid is a weak acid, and it won't turn your body acidic, any more that stomach acid will.

You can take your vitamin C as a portion of each - some ascorbic acid and some sodium ascorbate.


Also I have read on tons of herpes boards etc that high long term lysine dosage (i think like 2-3g+ per day) for months/years can cause liver damage or something like that?


I don't think this is true and I believe I know where this "story" came from. We have seen people taking massive dosages of lysine fighting heart disease since the early 90s. Along with vitamin C, all that happens by taking large amounts of lysine is that they get well.

Pauling did a literature review when he first wrote up the case study about his Therapy and found a single negative report about lysine in lab animals. Pauling included it in his references (from work at Loma Linda Univeristy). From memory, the result of additional lysine in the diet was an increase in cholesterol in these animals.

Like Vitamin C, lysine is entirely non-toxic and there is no lethal oral dosage. No dose that can kill a laboratory animal.

I have never seen a scientific report of "liver damage" due to lysine, and would be interested if anyone can find such a report in the literature.
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#8  Post by blueleaf1 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:05 am

Owen,

Thank you for the reply! Have a few questions here if you dont mind helping me out :D

1) Does AA always have to be taken on empty stomach for best results?

2) Should lysine always be taken empty stomach together with AA/SA?

3) If AA doesnt make you acidic and is more potent than SA, what's the point of SA? Why would pauling bother to buffer his C?

Thanks!!!

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#9  Post by Johnwen » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:24 am

After reading through this post he seems to voice a concern over turning the body acidic and I would just like to add to this.
Your stomach acid is 100 times stronger then any acorbic acid on the market and your body does quite well handling it. The bulk of the supplement is then also neutrilized with any liquid you consume with it which also lowers it's potential.
If this seems to be a concern his doctor can do an Aion Gap. Which I'm sure will show no elevations.
Sodium in SA is used as a transpoter into the body. Perhaps doing some reasearch into SVCT's would set him on the right path in this concern.
I take my VC after I eat and been doing it for 12 years with a total consumption of 4Grams L-Lysine and my liver is fine. Haven't had any variation in emzynes in the last 10 years.
I'll let Owen answer your direct questions but personally I would pay attention to the foods you consume, Healthy Isn't Always Healthy!!!
If you read Pauling's History you'd find out that he wasn't suppose to live past forty but made it to 93. Maybe he knew something about his body that made SA a better choice??
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#10  Post by blueleaf1 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:08 pm

Johnwen wrote:After reading through this post he seems to voice a concern over turning the body acidic and I would just like to add to this.
Your stomach acid is 100 times stronger then any acorbic acid on the market and your body does quite well handling it. The bulk of the supplement is then also neutrilized with any liquid you consume with it which also lowers it's potential.
If this seems to be a concern his doctor can do an Aion Gap. Which I'm sure will show no elevations.
Sodium in SA is used as a transpoter into the body. Perhaps doing some reasearch into SVCT's would set him on the right path in this concern.
I take my VC after I eat and been doing it for 12 years with a total consumption of 4Grams L-Lysine and my liver is fine. Haven't had any variation in emzynes in the last 10 years.
I'll let Owen answer your direct questions but personally I would pay attention to the foods you consume, Healthy Isn't Always Healthy!!!
If you read Pauling's History you'd find out that he wasn't suppose to live past forty but made it to 93. Maybe he knew something about his body that made SA a better choice??


Hey John,

Its not a huge concern about turning the body acidic (as now I've heard a few of you talk about how AA effects PH in urine, not really in your body... I think I've read that before but also read about Pauling buffering and thought in my head well he must have known something)

but it was more a concern of if I was making a mistake mega dosing SA all these months when I could have probably had better results with AA. I mean I just don't see the benefit of SA as outlined above if AA is more potent/does nothing for acidity.

VanCanada

Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#11  Post by VanCanada » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:09 pm

blueleaf1 wrote:...but it was more a concern of if I was making a mistake mega dosing SA all these months when I could have probably had better results with AA.
Perhaps. But we don't know for sure. There aren't the scientific studies to answer this conclusively. We CAN make educated guesses of course; the work of Klenner, Cathcart and Levy in this area certainly help in this regard.


Maybe Levy's book on infectious diseases and vitamin C might hold some clues for you.


I mean I just don't see the benefit of SA as outlined above if AA is more potent/does nothing for acidity.
Perhaps Pauling was concerned about oral unbuffered ascorbic acid rotting away his teeth. This is a known risk that every vitamin C user should be aware of.



[There will be off topic editorial comments ahead. I do not wish to be banished from our community; therefore the rest of this post is Not to be read by ofonorow or any other VanCanada haters who may be reading thus far... please and thank you.]
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At the risk of being banished but in the spirit of truth seeking...
It amazes me how knowledgeable the moderator here can be on the benefits of vitamin C yet remain almost totally oblivious to any negatives resulting from it, whether real or theoretical. The question of whether the vitamin C negatives are real or not, or whether they might affect everyone or only an unfortunate few is beside the point.

The issue , as I see it, is one of biased information. I expect a higher standard of integrity and non-bias here, on this board, than I do from the mainstream media or from mainstream medicine. Let's inform people of the good and the bad and let the reader take it from there. Let's not try to sweep the bad things under the rug, shall we? If we can't be open and sharing here, then where can we dear reader? Thanks for letting me rant. Cheers.


We now return to our regular scheduled vitamin C broadcast... Good night.

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:32 pm

Hey John,

Its not a huge concern about turning the body acidic (as now I've heard a few of you talk about how AA effects PH in urine, not really in your body... I think I've read that before but also read about Pauling buffering and thought in my head well he must have known something)


You can always test your urine with a pH strip. If acidic, take more SA, and visa versa.

but it was more a concern of if I was making a mistake mega dosing SA all these months when I could have probably had better results with AA. I mean I just don't see the benefit of SA as outlined above if AA is more potent/does nothing for acidity.


Cathcart with all his experience was clear - and I'll link to his quote. You have to give sodium ascorbate IV - but he only had the 'ascorbate effect' with oral ascorbic acid.

According to Robert Cathcart,MD, the physician with vast experience with high dose vitamin C protocols, mineral ascorbates are generally not as effective therapeutically as ascorbic acid:

"...it was not entirely clear that the dramatic effects are always with ascorbic acid orally and sodium ascorbate intravenously. I have not been able to achieve the ascorbate effect with mineral ascorbates orally. Mineral ascorbates are fine forms of vitamin C but when you are really sick, the mitochondria are failing in their refueling of the free radical scavengers with electrons. The ascorbic acid carries 2 extra electrons per molecule where the mineral ascorbates seem to carry only one (plus per molecule the mineral ascorbates are heavier due to the mineral weighing more than the hydrogen the mineral replaces). So the mineral ascorbates are not potent enough to accomplish the ascorbate effect. There may be other reasons that we do not appreciate additionally." Robert Cathcart, III, MD


(I believe he also says basically the same thing on his video lectures we just posted at youtube).
Owen R. Fonorow
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VanCanada

Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#13  Post by VanCanada » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:54 pm

I just posted information I transcribed for you from the book 'Amalgam Illness' regarding lysine and infections in a thread found here:

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10383

For example:
Andrew Hall Cutler wrote:If you have trouble with viruses (e.g. herpes of any form, long colds) take 1/2 gram of lysine with each meal and also take inositol routinely.

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#14  Post by blueleaf1 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:45 am

Thanks all for the replies, greatly appreciated

I guess I'm gonna try lysine again daily and pump up AA instead of SA especially in times of need

The thing VanCanada states about tooth decay is interesting though. How can megadosers of AA best protect themselves from that?

Thanks

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Re: My story, and questions on AA/SA

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:30 am

A dentist in the fifties noticed that when his patients consumed more than 5 or 6 g of vitamin C daily - they stopped having dental carries (cavaties) and wrote a short book about it. This is how I have encouraged a lot of people to start taking "mega" dose vitamin C - to avoid the dentist.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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