Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#61  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:16 pm

Looking into the livecell microscope to spot nano particles.
All I can tell you is that we can see chylomicrons in the plasma of blood, especially after
someone has eaten a high fat diet - or if they have high triglycerides. The blood viewing
under the scope is not diagnostic so I don't think it would be a reliable way to measure.


Have you tried evaluating the Vitamin C in the urine?
N.


So micron - millionth and nano - billionth, meaning these nano particles might be 1000 times smaller... Asked this person w/the microscope to see what they can see after taking 5 Lypo-C.

Hadn't thought about using our new C-meters to measure vitamin C in the urine! That could be a stroke of genius w/r to Lypo-C. Putting this on my list.

Purchased 2 more (different) glucose meters at random... To make our measurements better, and hoping to stumble across a meter that only reads glucose. (johnwen, if your rep knows of such an "accurate" glucose-only meter, please let me know!)
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My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#62  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:35 pm

Dr. Hickey is playing his card close to his vest, but seems to doubt we are really measuring vitamin C! But here is his answer to my question.
Your guess was wrong but the answer does not help you. The liposomes used were commercial from Livon Labs with the contents validated. This answer does not help you solve the issues with your measurements or your extrapolations.


The plasma measurements were made by an independent lab using the Butts and Mulvihill method adapted for the Cobas Mira analyser. How does this help you?


So that leads me to find out how this particular method (also mentioned in that Riordan paper that johnwen references http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/articles/89024578.pdf) performs the analysis - irrespective of the lipid encapsulation!
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#63  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:39 pm

Search led me to this hickey paper! http://www.canceraction.org.gg/system/files/Hickey-Liposomal%20vit%20C.pdf

Their charts extend well out over 400 minutes.

This is the method used to determine vitamin C
[11] Butts W.C. Mulvihill H.J., 1975, Centrifugal analyzer determination of ascorbate in serum or urine with Fe3+/ferrozine. Clin Chem, 21, 493-1487.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Butts%20W.C.%20Mulvihill%20H.J.%2C%201975%2C%20Centrifugal%20analyzer%20determination%20of%20ascorbate%20in%20serum%20or%20urine%20with%20Fe3%2B%2Fferrozine.%20Clin%20Chem%2C%2021%2C%20493-1487.
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#64  Post by johnfromtexas » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:37 am

Alright, I've ordered a scale and weight from Amazon and I'll be able to calibrate my glucose meter sometime between Jan 4-9th. Until then I'll post the findings with what I have. Yesterday morning I got hooked up to a 50g SA IV and took lots of blood glucose readings with my FreeStyle Lite meter. The first two amounts of H2O are close estimates, and after that I used a measuring cup. On to the numbers:

7:40a Woke up
8:00a H2O 10oz
8:15a @ 78 mg/dL
8:27a IV Line In
8:45a @ 298 mg/dL
8:55a H2O 12oz
9:00a @ 274 mg/dL
9:15a @ 304 mg/dL
9:20a IV Line Out
9:22a H2O 8oz
9:30a @ 229 mg/dL
9:45a @ 264 mg/dL
9:55a H20 2oz and allergy pill
10:00a @ 256 mg/dL
10:15a @ 233 mg/dL
10:30a @ 207 mg/dL
10:45a @ 198 mg/dL
11:00a @ 189 mg/dL
11:15a @ 165 mg/dL
11:30a @ 145 mg/dL
11:40a (1) taco de lengua and a cup of coffee with sugar
12:00p @ 169 mg/dL

I'll do the IV again in the next few days and slow it down to drip over 2.5hrs and see what happens and where the peak is etc. Also, I'll make a batch of homebrew lip-C tonight or tomorrow and report back anything interesting. I'm also curious what would happen if one were to eat 15, or 30? of those LivOn packets...

Cheers and happy new year

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#65  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:54 pm

johnfromtexas wrote:Alright, I've ordered a scale and weight from Amazon and I'll be able to calibrate my glucose meter sometime between Jan 4-9th. Until then I'll post the findings with what I have. Yesterday morning I got hooked up to a 50g SA IV and took lots of blood glucose readings with my FreeStyle Lite meter. The first two amounts of H2O are close estimates, and after that I used a measuring cup. On to the numbers:

7:40a Woke up
8:00a H2O 10oz
8:15a @ 78 mg/dL


Very cool. Thank you. So your starting blood sugar was 78? Very good. How old are you?

8:27a IV Line In
8:45a @ 298 mg/dL +220 Change +220
8:55a H2O 12oz
9:00a @ 274 mg/dL +196 Change -24
9:15a @ 304 mg/dL +226 Change +48
9:20a IV Line Out
9:22a H2O 8oz
9:30a @ 229 mg/dL +151 Change -75
9:45a @ 264 mg/dL +186 Change +35
9:55a H20 2oz and allergy pill
10:00a @ 256 mg/dL +178 Change -8
10:15a @ 233 mg/dL +155 Change -23
10:30a @ 207 mg/dL +129 Change -26
10:45a @ 198 mg/dL +120 Change -9
11:00a @ 189 mg/dL +111 Change -9
11:15a @ 165 mg/dL +87 Change -24
11:30a @ 145 mg/dL +67 Change -20
11:40a (1) taco de lengua and a cup of coffee with sugar
12:00p @ 169 mg/dL

I'll do the IV again in the next few days and slow it down to drip over 2.5hrs and see what happens and where the peak is etc.

Also, I'll make a batch of homebrew lip-C tonight or tomorrow and report back anything interesting.

I'm also curious what would happen if one were to eat 15, or 30? of those LivOn packets...

Cheers and happy new year


Thank you for the interesting confirmation that we can in fact read vitamin C in the blood (what other explanation is there?) And you have the honor and distinction of being the first to read your blood vitamin C during an IV/C. (This raises an interesting question - since your blood sugar is lower than mine: Can reach that IV steady state level (around 300 ) with any amount of oral ascorbic acid?)

Vely interested in your future homemade lipo results - say every15 minutes.

We think we already know that you won't read much from Livon - as the encapsulated liposomes don't show up on the glucose reader. However, since 10-20% is probably not encapsulated, if you took 30 packets - we would expect to read the encapsulated.

Rather have you take 5 Lypo-C - and monitor your blood sugar for 3 hours. We have just become interested in whether Lypo-C induces an insulin response, so even if 5 Lypo-C did not spike your vitamin C, it would be interesting to monitor whether your blood sugar remains around 80 - or does a linear drop over 3 hours like mine did.

Also, interested in your calibrations.

Finally, if you could take about 4.4 grams of ascorbic acid (and specify the granularity) to see if you see the quick spike like I did, I would appreciate the confirmation/numbers.

Thank you!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#66  Post by johnfromtexas » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:50 am

My fingers are getting a little sore from all the pricks. The last five mornings my blood sugar has been reading anywhere from 78-88 -- this morning was the highest at 88 I've seen since I've been measuring. So here's what I did this morning (slept in):
9:00a @ 88 mg/dL (after about 8 hours of decent sleep and in a fasting state)
9:01a H2O, 8oz
9:10a @ 86 mg/dL, followed by H2O (4oz) and ~4.5grams of Fine Ascorbic Acid powder from NAP (some made in america brand...maybe the one sold here?... the bottle has the same color scheme as this site)
9:15a @ 99 mg/dL
9:20a @ 117 mg/dL
9:30a @ 86 mg/dL
9:31a @ 95 mg/dL
9:35a @ 86 mg/dL
...and then I had to leave the house.

Ok, so I'm learning quite a bit from these experiements and every day my protocol is getting more and more refined. Generally I'm using new lancets for every prick, and usually taking blood from my index/middle/ring finger on my right hand. There's the possibility that my glucose readings aren't accurate because I need to be more consistant with cleaning my fingers with alcohol and using fresh lancents between each reading. I do feel like the spike from my fasting state, 78 mg/dL to 117 mg/dL will prove to be a consistantly measurable spike -- we'll see. At 9:30a you can see that I took two readings back to back... I couldn't believe that it dropped from 117 to 86 mg/dL that quickly... maybe I willed it back up to 95... or my blood sample was contaminated or something. I have two FreeStyle Lites, so I suppose I could do some double readings -- and I don't mind buying another meter (any recommendations?).

And for what it's worth, I've been taking a reading after waking up -- then drinking water, waiting 10-15 minutes and taking another reading... and they haven't changed very much... so far only 1-5 mg/dL lower.

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#67  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:46 pm

Thank you, the results look different than mine to some extent. Your blood sugar is lower, but it is possible that your cells aren't as saturated as mine. (I've been taking over 15000 mg daily since 1986.) I know you get IVs, but how much oral vitamin C do you take regularly?

Also, I was using DSM's ultrafine powder. One of the things we are guessing and trying to show, based on doctors reports, is that this ultrafine form does raise blood levels higher than other more granular forms of ascorbic acid. Testing the form you mentioned is now on my todo list.

As to the dropoff, either quick absorption by cells, kidney disposal (via the 30 minute half-life) or another thought is insulin.

However, if these spikes exist after 15-20 minutes, then they would potentially substantiate the Hickey/Robert report of quick absorption of ascorbic acid through the stomach lining in their book The Ridiculous Dietary Allowance.

Relooking at the Hickey work/paper, they don't see a peak until a hundred minutes (Lypo-C) which is encapsulated sodium-ascorbate, and it the remains elevated for 400-500 minutes.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#68  Post by johnfromtexas » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:57 pm

I just wanted to post that I haven't forgotten the thread and that I'm planning on kicking up the c/glucose reader experiments next week again... waiting for my calibration scale, more c and now that the holidays are over I'll be able to get back into a good routine. Until then -- cheers

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#69  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:13 pm

Me too. Sore fingers. Ready to recalibrate all my meters.

Lets find out what homemade liposomes are made of!
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#70  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:29 am

Now interested in using our meter to measure vitamin C in the urine! (To help evaluate the threshold idea).

However there is a problem.

I used the Freestyle lite to measure my morning urine (second urine (to eliminate night before) and before taking my morning ascorbate.)

The numbers using the knife technique (measuring a drop on the knife after stirring) were

402 mg/dl
404 mg/dl

So my supposedly "low" urine reading is almost at the limit the meter can measure on the high side!

I just took a loading dose (teaspoon of sodium ascorbate and a teaspoon of ultrafine ascorbic acid) and I will measure the next urine, but I would expect it to read HI, thus the problem. How can I read the very high amount of ascorbate that is likely to be deposited in the urine to compare and test the upper threshold idea?

Anyway, the time of the loading dose was 7:20 a.m.
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#71  Post by Johnwen » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:53 am

Here's some reading materials may help in understanding what is being seen.

http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/a ... 82_jom.pdf

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/120/11_Suppl/1480.long
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#72  Post by ofonorow » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:40 am

As expected, My urine readings (w/the glucose meter) after taking a loading dose of ascorbate read HI, so I am looking for a way to measure the "threshold" - the upper limit on the rate of of cellular intake (like the work intake better than uptake). The threshold could be measured by ascorbate that makes it into the blood but is expelled into the urine.

The first article was interesting - too bad they mention the faulty idea that vitamin C increases oxalate levels. Basically, the message seems to be that it is hard to predict a relationship between vitamin C in plasma and urinary output.


For the kidney doctor I am having a discussion with, I want to remember this quote

If vitamin C was the sole cause of kidney stones, it would seem that herbivores, many who can make grams of vitamin C a day and usually have an alkaline urine (two parameters for formation of common
kidney stones), would have an epidemic of kidney stones


johnwen, what am I missing - why is a plasma vitamin C test so difficult?
Measurement of plasma vitamin C is a very complicated procedure that takes several hours to perform. The Bio-Center Laboratory performs this test by HPLC. A sublingual, lingual or intradermal test using a dye has been tried, but with conflicting results.


Might not our glucose meters be reading plasma vitamin C (albeit crudely)?

Also, these numbers make me wonder why my urine was 400 mg/dl?
. The color chart was 0, 5, 10, 20, and 40 mg/dL.

The max expected seems to be 40 mg/dl - meaning my urine contained 350 mg/dl of glucose??

Also need to see if these test strips designed by Riordan clinic are available! Might be the answer.

A company, Teco Diagnostics (Anaheim, CA), agreed to make a strip to our specifications with a color chart that included a 50 and 100 mg/dL color areas. After evaluating the strip against other strips with a vitamin C area and various standards and numerous patients, we accepted the pproduct and named the strip VitaChek-C©

Regarding that second article, I did learn that AA+DHAA is considered the vitamin C in the blood and that "accurate" measurements turn one form into the other before measurement. (It would be interesting to know the normal ratios of AA to DHAA.... I think I saw this in a Cathcart paper..) I am not sure I understand the relevance, but I suppose it is interesting to know "saturation" of blood cells.

The "threshold" idea is not saturation, although that may be part of it - because during a cold, a cell may be using up vitamin C at very high rates. It could take in more - if there was capacity through the receptor path in the membrane into the cell.
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#73  Post by Johnwen » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:37 pm

johnwen, what am I missing - why is a plasma vitamin C test so difficult?


Vitamin C within the body is very dynamic it's levels are constantly varying due to transports, cell uptakes, intake amounts, gastric absorbing levels, break downs and on and on.
A good analogy would be like trying to catch a field mouse in an open field to weight it! Good luck at this..
If V-C where a cash cow for Big Pharma They would probably spend millions figuring out a trace element they could attach to it so they could see where it's going at specific levels. But one can only dream.
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