Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

[Johnwen]

I did a quick search for a graph that would give an idea of how sugar levels vary during the day and came up with this. I think it's some diabetes site but it shows how different factors play into the sugar levels. But it shows the normal fluctuations also.

http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19060174.php

[ofonorow]

Thx for all answers. If second chart is accurate (The bagel) , in normal people, glucose peaks in 30 minutes and returns to the starting level in one hour. Vitamin C apparently peaks before that.

[randian]

How would an ordinary person in the US try this out? While meters can be gotten anywhere, testing strips are, oddly (since they aren't a drug and thus have no risk to anybody), a prescription-only item.

[ofonorow]

Not true (but very expensive if you get them via a pharmacist!)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004DJYJJM/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

I am interested if these strips can be "cheated on" - if I can somehow run multiple tests with the same strip. (No luck so far - meter/computer somehow detects that the strip was already used.

[randian]

Not true (but very expensive if you get them via a pharmacist!)

Then why are aren't they in the same place as the meters when I go to my local Walmart or CVS? They keep the strips behind the counter or in a locked transparent mini-cabinet like they were alcohol or cigarettes.

[johnfromtexas]

I just ordered the FreeStyle Lite monitor and boxes of strips from Amazon. I'm sure stoked for these things to show up in the mail. Until then, I'll be following the thread. Cheers!

[ofonorow]

Test 1: ultrafine ascorbic acid

I weighed the 9 CC scoop of ultrafine DSM ascorbic acid - 4.4 grams. (Fluffy)

First hour, then every 15 minutes hour 2. Here is the data.

Dec 18

7:50 a.m. 123 mg/dl
glass water
8:00 a.m. 126 mg/dl 9 CC( 4.4 g) ultrafine ascorbic acid (v Change v)
8:05 a.m. 143 mg/dl (+17 mg/dl @ 5 min) + 17
8:10a.m. 159 mg/dl (+33 mg/dl @ 10 min) + 16
8:15 a.m. 183 mg/dl (+57 mg/dl @ 15 min) + 24
8:20 a.m. 193 mg/dl (+67 mg/dl @ 20 min) + 10
8:25 a.m. 140 mg/dl (+14 mg/dl @ 25 min) - 53
8:30 a.m. 120 mg/dl (-6 mg/dl @ 30 min) - 20
8:35 a.m. 144 mg/dl (+18 mg/dl @ 35 min) + 24
8:40 a.m. 128 mg/dl (+2 mg/dl @ 40 min) - 16
8:45 a.m. 168 mg/dl (+42 mg/dl @ 45 min) + 40
8:50 a.m. 162 mg/dl (+36 mg/dl @ 50 min) - 6
8:55 a.m. 133 mg/dl (+7 mg/dl @ 55 min) - 29
9:00 a.m. 148 mg/dl (+22 mg/dl @ 60 min) +15

9:15 a.m. 131 mg/dl (+5 mg/dl @ 75 min)

9:30 a.m. 133 mg/dl (+7 mg/dl @ 90 min)

9:45 a.m. 127 mg/dl (+1 mg/dl @ 105 min)

10:00 a.m. 126 mg/dl ( 0 mg/dl @ 120 min)


First number is change from baseline (126). Trailing number is change from last reading.

Observations. Seems to peak around 15-20 minutes, and then there is a second peak around 45 minutes. Obviously not all the ascorbate enters the blood stream immediately.

The sharp drops are probably due to insulin release (johnwen?) (If vitamin C does induce
the pancreas to release insulin, then some very interesting ideas come to mind (such as cancer patients taking oral 4 g ascorbic acid during regular chemo to produce "insulin potentiated" chemo. Sugar of course would feed the cancer, but AA might really improve chemotherapy.)

Coincidence that after 2 hours, the reading was identical with where we started.

Tomorrow I am going to try Lypo-C every 5 min for the first 30, and then every 15 minutes for a while.

Planning on making the comparison more apples-to-apples by taking the same amount of vitamin C - or 4 packets (or 4 grams) of Lypo.

[Johnwen]

Let's see these people say if you IV AA it shows on the meter but if you take it by mouth it don't! This kind of makes me think what kind of oral V-C were they taking or how long they waited to take the readings??? It's kind of like their saying oral V-C don't get in the blood? HMMM!

http://www.riordanclinic.org/research/a ... 024578.pdf

[ofonorow]

For some reason, that paper hurt my head! (We just found out that all the interesting oral "action" occurs within the first 20 minutes!)

Table I seems to indicate that one AA "unit" reads as 2 sugar "units", or about double.

When the AA increased from 3.2 to 69.2, (+66) the reading jumped from 110 to 251 (+141) on that older Abott labs glucose meter.

Do not know if that ratio applies to my current meter.

Now the problem with putting a "drop" of an iv solution on the meter is that it is too concentrated and doesn't simulate the blood, like your rep suggested, i.e. the 100 mg for 3.3 oz (dl) does. (Hmmm, should be able to use these measurements to see calibrate the Freestyle Lite ascorbic acid measurements!!)

First, they were using older glucose meters, so probably apples and oranges, but they did have the benefit of laboratory equipment and found thus:

The finger stick glucose levels in the mid and post samples appeared to be about 3.5 times higher than the plasma AA levels. When the finger stick glucose levels were divided by 3.6
one could get a close approximation of the plasma AA levels at low levels. The mid finger stick glucose level was: 251 mg/dL: 251 mg/dL t 3.6 = 69.7 mg/dL AA (the actual value was 69.2 mg/dL)

Now if I understand (I don't) how they use electrical currents, it is possible that the sodium in sodium ascorbate may affect the measurement, so I suppose the next experiment should be a repeat of today with sodium ascorbate powder - before doing Lypo-C (which is also sodium ascorbate.)

Since IV/C is sodium ascorbate (or should be) perhaps this explains the double readings?


Here is what you saw, and which obviously does not apply to the Freestyle Lite meter:

It does not appear that oral intake of vitamin C in any form will affect the finger stick glucose procedure. One of the authors is a Type I1 diabetic and takes a minimum of six grams of oral vitamin C a day. It has not caused a rise in his serum or finger stick glucose.

We'll my experiment was with 4.4 grams at one time. Wouldn't it be interesting if only the ultra-fine vitamin C causes this reading! Time will tell.

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

Thank you johnwen. Unfortunately, today was frustrating. Beside having a "broken" meter, probably low battery, (but no warning), showed me that cortisol (stress!) can affect this experiment!

So today I take my glass of water - and then realized I am an hour early (sigh.. circadian rhythms) and also realized that 4.4 g of sodium ascorbate doesn't equal 4.4 grams of ascorbic acid!? Stress.

The next base line reading 10 minutes later after the water is up about 20 points! I was going to go ahead anyway an hour early, but took another "baseline" - up +262 points. Nothing but the orignal glass of water ingested!!???

Dec 19

6:55 a.m 132 mg/dl Glass of water
7:05 a.m 154 mg/dl Little stressed (Cortisol?) Think about sodium ascorbate, wrong start time
7:15 a.m.394 mg/dl Tried again to baseline. ? Meter? Battery? Bad Strip?

So I decided to wait the hour to match yesterday, but things are still screwy... Had to change meters (I got another one because I didn't trust some of my own measurements way back...)

7:50 162 mg/dl (half glass of water)
8:00 404 mg/dl ??????????? Meter apparently bad. Started using my wife's meter.
8:00 180 mg/dl New Meter (Same batch test strips)

So old meter reports 404, but same blood on new meter 180 ??? (Did I mention stress).
So today's sodium ascorbate measurements are on the new meter (same batch of test strips)

Also since the ratio of ascorbate to sodium in sodium ascorbate is 838/108, I ran a calculation that I needed 4.953 g of sodium ascorbate to get 4.4 grams of ascorbate.)

8:00 180 mg/dl New Meter (Same batch test strips)
8:10 a.m 172 mg/dl 4.95 DSM Sodium Ascorbate
8:15 a.m. 124 mg/dl (-48 @ 5 min) -48
8:20 a.m. 165 mg/dl (-7 @ 10 min) +41
8:25 a.m. 188 mg/dl (+16 @ 15 min) +23
8:30 a.m. 152 mg/dl (-20 @ 20 min) -36
8:35 a.m. 192 mg/dl (+20 @ 25 min) +40
8:40 a.m 157 mg/dl (-15 @ 30 min) -35

8:55 a.m. 146 mg/dl (-26 @ 45 min)

9:10 a.m. 149 mg/dl (-23 @ 60 min)

Assuming that today's numbers have any meaning, it does seem to validate the Hickey/Roberts info that ascorbic acid is absorbed through the stomach lining, because with sodium ascorbate, we don't see anything like the spike I saw for ascorbic acid yesterday. Yesterday, AA peaked +67 @ 20 minutes. With sodium ascorbate the readings peaked at +20 @25 minutes.

So we don't know - yet - whether the meter can read sodium ascorbate, or how long it takes to get into the blood stream. I think we can say that sodium ascorbate does seem to have a "lower glycemic index" than ascorbic acid. Less insulin, which would indicate that for dieters trying to minimize insulin, sodium ascorbate might be the way to go. This assumes the meter can read sodium ascorbate. HOW DO WE PROVE THIS? MAYBE DOUBLING THE SODIUM ASCORBATE TO SEE IF THE READINGS DOUBLE?

I will still try to do Lypo-C - for what its worth. Fingers sore, so may wait a day or two and buy new batteries. (Make start making double readings on the same blood - using two meters. Only issue is cost of the strips. About a buck a piece.)

Note: The reader faulting during the (2) 400 mg/dl readings, is not be good for regular diabetics. The manual says there will be a low battery warning. (I note there is a plug for a AC/DC adapter - that would eliminate the battery issue.)

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

[ofonorow]

[Johnwen]