Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

[Saw]

[ofonorow]

This is getting old! Kind of like listening to some quackbuster tell us vitamins are useless.

This thread is discussing how to measure vitamin C levels with a glucose meter! (This is novel, but the way. Even the Riordan clinic didn't think it could be done)

Liposomal comes up, because measuring C encapsulated in liposomes is a difficult problem.

I personally have no interest in homemade liposomes , so I am hoping you or others promoting the idea will run these tests for yourselves (as budding scientists) to see how much is really encapsulated. (However, if no one steps forward, then I will start to make my own. Sigh).

My next measurement is going to be on my own blood after taking 5 Lypo-C, and wanted to have some idea what to expect in the blood.

[skyorbit]

[Saw]

Then do it. Get a meter, and measure it in water to see how much C is still free form.

No thanks, not interested.

My post was directed at Owen because of his constant attacks on homemade lipo,
which is fine if he had any experience with it. But he hasn't. He hasn't made it, used it
or knows anyone who has (not posted anyway).
This is the vitamin c foundation right? I would think such an organization would be
interested in such a low cost, do it yourself innovation to boost C levels.
At least make a batch and flush it down toilet so that you have some experience
with it.

[Johnwen]

[skyorbit]

Owen used to tell me to make my own a little as a year or so ago, because at the time I couldn't afford to buy it. He's since changed his mind after reading Dr levy's studies on the issue. So it's not an attack. He's just (in his mind) better informed then he used to be.

Tracy

[ofonorow]

Thank you skyorbit. In fact, I have said and I do believe (before reading johnwen's last post at least) that homemade lipo is probably better than plain oral sodium ascorbate. I base this on the Vinson aloe and New Zealand kiwi gel studies showing more vitamin C makes it into cells when combined with aloe vera and the kiwi gel. Unknown whether the phospholipids provide the same protection, but based on the anecdotal evidence of those at the forum, I think it is plausible.

However, as johnwen has taken the time to explain - how the commercial processes literally shoot vitamin C molecule pellets into the fat via a steel plate, I do not think that the homemade process encapsulates much into nanosomes, (which would offer the 'energy free" transport directly through the cell membrane.) My personal experiences (as documented here) with Lypo-C have been convincing, and Dr. Levy has written about his own clinical experience, case in point Adam Smith in New Zealand (Swine Flu).

Never say never, and the beauty of what we are learning here is that we may actually be able to quantify this - finally. Instead of thousands of dollars per test. Less than $100 for a test, and cheaper as time goes on.

I just ordered a 0.01 gram scale, and I was just speaking with Dr. Levy about the very accurate glucose meters - which do not register vitamin C. Between careful measurements (calibrating the Abbott meter) and a very accurate glucose-only meter, we should be able to do an excellent job measuring vitamin C! In solution and in the blood. We are inventing a very exciting tool - and one that can be duplicated by anyone.

It may turn out that one or more of the homemade liposomal protocols are encapsulating. I am looking forward to finding out, sooner rather than later.

[skyorbit]

Did Dr levy tell you any home test meters that are sophisticated enough to only measure glucose?

TRacy

[ofonorow]

At this point, he has told me they exist, but I don't have a brand/model. Those that read this thread/topic will be the first to know!

[ofonorow]

Started the 5 Lypo-C test measurements.

Used two meters, same blood, same batch of test strips. Found more variance than you would expect between the meters, greater than the normal 1.5 mg/dl maximum of ascorbate)

Code: Select all

                   
                  Meter New          Meter Old          (Variance between meters)

5:00 a.m.      228 mg/dl            216  mg/dl       (12 mg/dl)

Glass Water

5:14 a.m.     221                     193                 ( 28 )
5:15 a.m.     5 Lypo-C packets in deciliter of water         

5:30  a.m.    206                     214                 ( -8 )
5:45 a.m.     203                     200                 ( 3  )
6:00 a.m.     201                     218                 ( -17 )
6:15 a.m.     177                     181                 ( -4 )
6:30 a.m.     196                     187                 ( 9 )
6:45 a.m.     172                     189                 ( -17 )
7:00 a.m.     181                     167 (2 beeps?)  ( 14 )
7:15 a.m.     177                     174                 ( 3 )
     Note: started to feel my "I need my a.m. vitamin C" reaction.. mucous/tickle in throat
7:30 a.m.     170                     168                 ( 2 )
7:45 a.m.     164                     157                 ( 7 )
8:00 a.m.     137                     172                 (-35)


Initial Thoughts.

1. We know 5 packets contain 5 g vitamin C (from our experiments with the solutions) but we really
don't measure 5 g Lypo-C as AA in the blood. (Maybe the 1 g that isn't encapsulated)

2. My blood sugar (vit c?) dropped from around 220 mg/dl in the beginning to 160 mg/dl or 60 points during the experiment?!

3. We didn't see the ascorbic acid pattern (initial high spike) and we wouldn't expect it to.

2. We think we know that maybe 20% of Lypo-C is not encapsulated (e.g. 1 g (200 mg X 5)) and we might see the sodium ascorbate pattern repeated if we look hard enough. (There is a similarity, if we lower the baseline to the lowest reading. It is smaller as we would expect with 1000 mg, versus 4.9 grams)

3. I decided to measure over 3 hours (although I know from one of Dr. Levy's books, that lipids can take up to six hours to move out of the stomach. There still might be something to see after 3 hours, such as the eventual release in the liver.)

4. It looks like any release of vitamin C into the blood (that we can measure) after 5 Packets of Lypo-C is very slow, probably less than the variance in our crude measurements. What we are seeing through the first two hours might only be the amount not encapsulated.

This seems to imply that the liposomes make it through the stomach/digestion intact! (Otherwise we would see larger measurements of AA in the blood)

I now wonder if the diagrams in the Hickey/Saul book were perhaps blood measurements of homemade liposomes? It does appear that the highly encapsulated Lypo-C does not markedly raise measurable AA in the blood, implying that a large amount of the vitamin C we measured in solution is still encapsulated. (Anyone who can find the book, I'd be interested in when the peak blood levels appeared after their blood measures, and how they measured. )

Paradoxically, if a homemade liposome produced higher measurements in the blood, more like the Hickey/Saul chart, it may be because the vitamin C isn't encapsulated.

Even if we can't measure Lypo-C in the blood, we can use our "crude vitamin C meter" to measure vitamin C in the solutions and estimate how much is encapsulated. This does give us a crude comparison between the commercial and homemade, and among the commercial.

In the past I have felt the "pop" from Lypo-C (killing an infection) within minutes of taking it. This is making me more convinced that Dr. Levy is correct - the miracle of Lypo-C's clinical effects is from the nano sized lyposomes and their ability to deposit vitamin C directly into cells with little energy.

All right docs, any idea why my blood sugar dropped 60 points?

I am interested in a Live Cell Microscopic analysis, assuming the nano particles could be seen, to find out exactly how long it takes for them to appear in the blood after ingestion of Lypo-C.

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

[ofonorow]

johnwen - the implications of what you said in your last post just bubbled up from my unconscious. It may be profound, IF nano particles target specific cells. What about the other cells if someone were only using Lypo-C as their source of supplement vitamin C? (So far, from this experience, I would guess that they get the 20% (or roughly 200 mg/packet) from the unencapsulated vitamin C in each packet..)

Can we figure out what cells Lypo-C would target?

One of the reasons I reported the "tickle starting in my throat" was to indicate that the cells responsible for creating the mucous were apparently out of their supply of vitamin C. Even after a 5 packet super-dose. (I was trying to figure out when to end the measurement. And if some had reached the liver, it apparently wasn't released within 3 hours.)

[johnfromtexas]

I ordered a glucose reader and 100 test strips from Amazon -- (2) FreeStyle Lite meters and 100 strips ~ $70 including shipping. After I make some batches of lip-C and get off my holiday diet, I'll begin experimenting with the meter as you have, Owen. Basically, I'm looking for protocol suggestions... I want to eliminate as many variables as possible, so I'll be getting on a regimented/consistent diet and sleep schedule. I'm imagining taking readings for a couple days before VC to get some base numbers, and for a few days in a row, same reg/protocol but readings after various forms of VC (including IV).

I'm hoping that this turns out to be an affordable tool for people getting into VC therapy to find some encouragement in their efforts, in the same way that a bathroom scale is a rough measurement for those trying to lose weight.

[ofonorow]

Welcome to the experiment. Sounds like you will be measuring homemade liposomal vitamin C, correct? (Because we think we just determined that commercial Lypo-C from Livonlabs does not show up in the blood as ascorbate.)

Now you are not me - so you tissue needs for vitamin C can make your experiments different than mine, but, if you take measurements upon waking up (fasting) after a loading dose of around 5 g of liposomal vitamin C, and then take the blood measurements every 15 minutes, that would contribute to our knowledge of the difference between a commercial liposomal vitamin C and homemade.

Step One is to calibrate your glucose meter. Hate to add to your expense, but you need a scale. ( I just purchased this 0.01 g scale for $35 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003STEIYY/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00 (after almost buying one at a retail store for $300!). This one seems to work fine. ( also bought the 100 and 200 g calibration weights.)

So you put 100 g (deciliter) of filtered/pure water in a glass.
You add 100 mg (or 200 mg) of ascorbic acid to the water and stir.
(I used a stainless steel knife to stir and then took the reading from the wetness on the knife)

If your meter works like mine, if you test plain water (without any vitamin C) it will read LO or ERR.

If you test the 100 mg/ dl solution it will read about 1.5 times, or around 150-180 mg/dl

I would take a few readings with different strips and let us know what the readings are.

If for example, they average 150 for the 100 mg, it means your numbers are 1.5 times the true value of ascorbate.

Next come the blood tests.

If you want to see if you can repeat my experience with ascorbic acid - I took about 4.4 grams, after waking up, and then took readings every 5 minutes - because it happens fast. Peaks between 15 and 20 minutes.

We don't yet know what the pattern will be for the homemade lipo, so took every 15 minutes for 3 hours with Lypo-C.