Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#31  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:46 pm

Well we have demonstrated (and I am certain anyone can repeat our experiments) that a modern glucose meter reads vitamin C.

We have also determined (thanks to your meter rep) that the reading of vitamin C (as glucose) is approx 1.67 higher than the actual value in mg/dl.

I put the first hour long experiments into a graphing program (although the sodium ascorbate numbers were tricky) to illustrate the different patterns in blood over an hour.

4.4g DSM ultrafine ascorbic acid powder after oral ingestion
Image

..

4.9 g DSM sodium ascorbate powder after oral ingestion
Image

I'll adust these as we take more measurements.
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#32  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:19 am

Question: Lypo-C - if I put about 10% of a packet (approx. 100 g of sodium ascorbate) in the deciliter of water, what should happen?

If I read C, was it the C that wasn't encapsulated? Is this a way to measure encapsulation between commercial and DIY liposomes? What about over time? (This will be my next experiment since I don't have to prick myself)

If liposomes are "better" (entering cells) then the lower reading might be better. What is the experiment here?

Also, looking at those graphs between ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate, it hit me why Dr. Cathcart's clinical experience was AA is better than SA:


I have found that vitamin C in the ascorbic acid form is the best form to take orally. I have been able to achieve what I call the ascorbate effect with only ascorbic acid by mouth. Mineral ascorbates by mouth, while being a fine source of vitamin C, do not seem to carry the same punch, probably more electrons.

Entire letter to Foundation: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/docc.shtml


Maybe not the electrons - the picture makes it obvious that what Cathcart experience is probably due to ascorbic acid rapidily increasing blood levels, almost twice as high as sodium ascorbate!
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#33  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:30 am

Maybe not Nobel prize worthy... but I had an idea..

I put about a quarter packet of Lypo-C in the deciliter of water. And stirred and agitated, for about 10 minutes, with force. It stayed clumpy with none of it dissolving (apparently).

The measure was 50 mg/dl.

So there was some vitamin C.

For comparison, the other measurements were from 189 (100 mg of ascorbic acid) to 281 (200 mg of sodium ascorbate) So 1/4 to 1/6 the expected reading. (Probably should work with the entire packet, or supposedly 1000 mg of vitamin C.. hmm)

Here is the Eureka idea.

Livon labs says not to freeze Lypo-C because that will crystallize and thus destroy the liposomes!

So the sample is currently in the freezer. After it freezes, I will let it thaw and return to room temperature. Then taken another meter reading.

I assume that after the liposomes crack, the ascorbate will be released, and the number will be higher! I will post that number here later today.

250 mg/dl (after freezing/thawing)

So 5 times the amount of C in the water. (A "used" strip reported 212 on the same sample using the same meter (see next post).. Sigh)

But this indicates that DIY/Homemade lipoists can do the same thing after calibrating
their meters, to see how much vitamin C is encapsulated. (Using both the before and
after readings. If not much, first number should be larger, and second number smaller,
closer to the first)!

Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#34  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:12 pm

Will edit previous post with Lypo-C number after freezing (now thawing) but made another important discovery.

We can reuse the FreeStyle LITE test strips - after they dry out!!!!

Next experiments (with the vitamin C in water) is to see whether the test script gives the same value after drying out. If so, I may now be able to run many multiple test strips on the same drop of blood, after we validate that they give the same reading after drying.)

Happy Holidays to all, and to all I hope you are having as much fun as I am these days :D
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#35  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:16 pm

Livon labs uses a shotgun method of encapsulation. They take SA and mix it with phosphatidylcholine (lecithin) in a soluble liquid and then slam it into a stainless steel plate at 3000psi which basically drives the SA into the PC which is like shooting a bb into a apple. Or better compared with a shoot gun blast into a bushel of apples not all pellets will hit a target and there will be some residue pellets of SA that will be released as fast acting V-C which isn’t all that bad but readable on the meter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylcholine

PC does not dissolve in water! But if you have some cooking oil it will absorb the Monounsaturated component of it and begin to break down (saturated) releasing the SA which is water base and will be visible in the oil mix. However I don’t think it would be advisable to put this in the meter.

Your freeze test! You are just placing just the powder in the freezer correct??
If so don’t let it thaw! Add Warm (80-100 degree) water as soon as you take it out of the freezer. This may crack the shell due to the sudden change in temp. and dissolve the SA into the liquid.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#36  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:22 pm

johnwen, read your post too late!


But it seemed to work? (Certainly looked different (choline) after the freezing process!)


250 mg/dl (after freezing/thawing) 50 mg/dl before freezing.


Impressive 5 times the amount of C in the water!

This makes sense, and at least it should provide a method to measure the encapsulation of doit yourself/homemade liposomes - and the technique. Higher the first, and lower the second number (after the freezing) the less encapsulation.

I look forward to some numbers on home made lipo from others - including their calibration numbers. (Run the same test with both your home made and a packet of livon Lypo-C)

And from first tests, even though you can reuse the strips - the numbers were much different than the new strips. :evil: I tried a used strip (same meter and water sample) but got 212 mg/dl (not 250 mg/dl like the new test strip?)

For fun, I just boiled the sample.. When it cools will post that number.

added.

No idea what it means but after boiling, the same sample water read HI - which means greater then 450mg/dl!?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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VanCanada

Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#37  Post by VanCanada » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:53 pm

ofonorow wrote:I have found a blood glucose meter that reacts to vitamin C. Freestyle-lite (Abbot Labs).

Does anyone know what the differences might be between these two different products from Abbott Labs?

1. Abbott FreeStyle Freedom Blood Glucose Monitor, and

2. Abbott FreeStyle Lite Blood Glucose Monitor

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#38  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:56 pm

Next questions...

Lypo-C

Still unsure what we expect to see regarding vitamin C in the blood after taking 5 Lypo-Cs (or very close to the same amount of ascorbate as 4.4 g).

From the sodium ascorbate test - we expect a peak around 20 (reading of 33 mg/dl after 25 minutes, but unknown how long it takes for the entire 5 grams of (mostly) encapsulated SA to release into the blood.

If there is 20% ordinary C in Lypo-C (per encapsulation test 50 out of 250) then we might expect to see 20% of that peak in 20 minutes after 5 Lypo-C - or just from the vitamin that is not encapsulated.

If liposomal C does get released in the liver - and then travels through the blood as ordinary C per an early theory - then it will take a much longer term test to monitor this, but it should be obvious (alas no coffee for hours...)

If C never spikes more than 20% of the 33 number (or 6-7 points), then all the C is encapsulated and goes randomly into cells. We'd need tests of C inside cells - like the New Zealand tests of kiwi gel. (But we have seen the Hickey/Saul book and other measurements showing serum vitamin C does rise after liposomal.)

IV/C

Got the idea that since we have this tool, I might as well prick myself during an hour of taking IV/C! I guess I'll take the amount that can be quickly administered in a hour. See what the highest levels that can be measured. (Probably will spike my meter, i.e. "HI")
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#39  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:02 pm

VanCanada wrote:
ofonorow wrote:I have found a blood glucose meter that reacts to vitamin C. Freestyle-lite (Abbot Labs).

Does anyone know what the differences might be between these two different products from Abbott Labs?

1. Abbott FreeStyle Freedom Blood Glucose Monitor, and

2. Abbott FreeStyle Lite Blood Glucose Monitor

Thanks in advance.


No idea. I just happen to own the Freestyle Lite, so that is the meter being used/calibrated.

If the other, or any meter, can read higher that 450-500 mg/dl, which is the highest glucose number this meter will read, that would be good to know, and could be useful for the IV/C testing.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#40  Post by skyorbit » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:54 pm

ofonorow wrote:Maybe not Nobel prize worthy... but I had an idea..

I put about a quarter packet of Lypo-C in the deciliter of water. And stirred and agitated, for about 10 minutes, with force. It stayed clumpy with none of it dissolving (apparently).

The measure was 50 mg/dl.

So there was some vitamin C.

For comparison, the other measurements were from 189 (100 mg of ascorbic acid) to 281 (200 mg of sodium ascorbate) So 1/4 to 1/6 the expected reading. (Probably should work with the entire packet, or supposedly 1000 mg of vitamin C.. hmm)

Here is the Eureka idea.

Livon labs says not to freeze Lypo-C because that will crystallize and thus destroy the liposomes!

So the sample is currently in the freezer. After it freezes, I will let it thaw and return to room temperature. Then taken another meter reading.

I assume that after the liposomes crack, the ascorbate will be released, and the number will be higher! I will post that number here later today.

250 mg/dl (after freezing/thawing)

So 5 times the amount of C in the water. (A "used" strip reported 212 on the same sample using the same meter (see next post).. Sigh)

But this indicates that DIY/Homemade lipoists can do the same thing after calibrating
their meters, to see how much vitamin C is encapsulated. (Using both the before and
after readings. If not much, first number should be larger, and second number smaller,
closer to the first)!



My guess is that if you hadn't stirred it vigorously, the meter would have read none.

They say don't put it in a blender because blending destroys the liposomes too. Stiring it vigerously, would damage the liposomes too, but to a lessor extent.

BTW, Liposomes don't freeze untill 4 degrees farenheit, so you need to make sure your freezer gets that low or lower. According to their quality statements they can last for up to 2 months at 4 degrees also when they're brand new.

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#41  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:53 am

My guess is that if you hadn't stirred it vigorously, the meter would have read none.


Okay, something else to try. (You apparently feel that livon is making almost 100% of the vitamin C encapsulated? Even Dr. Levy or Livon doesn't make that claim.)

My first number is 80% encapsulation for Lypo. I will try your suggestion, and see what the reading is without stirring/agitating.

Used the entire Lypo-C packet this time. Last time I tried to use a quarter (250 mg of C), but may have used half a packet)

Let the Lypo-C simply stand for 5 minutes in the deciliter of water (no stirring or agitating)

Reading: LO (meaning < 20 I believe) Very good skyorbit! Excellent.

I read with two other used strips, first LO, but then I stirred a little and got a reading of 38 mg/dl

Now I am even more interested in the homemade solutions.

Note: I am hoping the defenders of homemade liposomes will pick up a meter and begin defending their mixtures! It is easy to start running you own experiments. The better the numbers, the better we will be able to evaluate between the various methods of creating "liposomes."

About the protocol.

Been using filtered/purified water.

I stir the water with a knife and then use the little bit of water on the knife for the reading. (As
if it were a drop of blood)

About the Scale.

100 g of water is 1 deciliter or about 3.33 oz.

I measure the weight of the glass. Then add water until it is 100 g more than the weight of the glass.

Adding 100 mg of vitamin C is trickier.

I have a gram scale that reads to a tenth of a gram. Or 100 milligrams, but I should probably invest in one that reads 100ths of a gram. A reading on my scale that reads 7.2 could be anywhere from 7.11 to 7.29. Ergo, the reading of 100 mg to put in the deciliter has a potential error of at least 50 mg, but maybe 100 mg.

If we really want to know what each meter is reading, we have to know the real amount of vitamin C per deciliter, it should probably be with a scale that reads hundredths of a gram. Expensive.

But crude measurements are still possible, and the experiment to compare Lypo-C with homemade liposomes would still provide a good ball park figure of encapsulation.
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#42  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:57 am

My guess is that if you hadn't stirred it vigorously, the meter would have read none.


Rethinking, if you don't do any stirring, than you may not read any un-encapsulated C that has emulsified.


BTW, Liposomes don't freeze untill 4 degrees Fahrenheit, so you need to make sure your freezer gets that low or lower. According to their quality statements they can last for up to 2 months at 4 degrees also when they're brand new.


We may be developing a method to test this quality statement :) .
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#43  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:56 pm

Okay skyorbit, I decided to retest - stirring very slowly for 5 minutes. Separating the clumps in one pacquet of Lypo-C in one deciliter of water, but gently, trying not to break any liposomes.

The number was 158 mg/dl

Note The 50 mg/dl after agitation was with 1/4 to 1/2 pacquet. The 158 was with a whole pacquet.

This says yes, if you don't stir - you won't read any vitamin C. Doesn't mean much though.

You have to stir gently to find out how much is isn't encapsulated.
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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#44  Post by skyorbit » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:04 pm

So you're thinking about 15.8% of it isn't encapsulated?

Tracy

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Re: Crude Vitamin C Blood Measurements w/Glucose Meter

Post Number:#45  Post by ofonorow » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:16 am

Don't have a number yet - because I haven't frozen and remeasured an entire packet. But yes, some percentage, even in Lypo-C is not encapsulated. And some gentle stirring is required to separate the C that is emulsified, but not encapsulated for the first measurement.

I am guessing, and time will tell, that almost all the C will be measured after the gentle stirring in the homemade potions.
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