Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#16  Post by ofonorow » Fri May 03, 2013 11:09 am

randian wrote:
ofonorow wrote:I believe it is probably the primary function, although low cortisol may manifest in multiple adverse ways.

Cortisol affects sleep/wake cycles. If your cortisol is low in the morning, you will not wake with energy and vigor like you should. If you have an inverted cortisol curve (low in the morning, high in the evening) you will have difficulty sleeping, and have more energy in the evening than the morning (the opposite of what should happen).


Perhaps. The interesting thing to me is the day your body stops making any cortisol is the last day you will be alive.

So we all make some.

According to Dr. T. Pinkus, cortisol is notoriously hard to measure (and his description reminded my of trying to measure Thyroid hormones).

For me, determining whether a shortage exists is as simple as feeling pain in my joints, especially fingers.

And yes the amount measured during the day follows a certain rhythm, almost opposite to the release of melatonin. Cortisol is low in the morning, increasing during waking hours until a peak around noon.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#17  Post by Johnwen » Fri May 03, 2013 2:17 pm

I see where you would want to miss the correlation that addictive substances stimulate the HPA axis and when the causative agent is removed the body still craves the rewards of the cortisol rush they experienced when taking the causative substance and how it’s been proven that the same reactions occur when a person takes low dose, long term cortisone therapy and then is taken from them. The so called rested adrenals cannot respond to the brain’s demands and the person experiences the same symptoms as one who is withdrawn from abused substances.
Why does this happen??
Because the body’s natural production of cortisol is equal to it’s production of dehydroepiandrostetone (DHEA). DHEA is a Anti-Cortisol compound that protects the body from the damaging effects of cortisol. The main area that it goes to when the body is stressed is the Brain. This protects the cells of the brain which are mainly lipids from being broken down by glycogenisis which is the process of converting fat into sugars which are in high demand during times of stress. By blocking this process in the brain it prevents the feed back that the brain is being attacked and prevents further release of stress hormones which would add more fuel to the fire.
It’s been found that when supplementing even low doses of cortisol for extended periods of time The body produces more sugars and suppress the immune system which give the euphoric effects and pain damping, one experiences but the imbalance in the body allows these hormones to slowly and gradually affect the mind and it’s cognitive functions as the excess blood sugars begin to do their damage elsewhere in the body. The euphoria experienced by the body over rides the damage being done elsewhere till it reaches a point where things start falling apart. It’s also interesting to note how the body try’s to preserve these higher levels one that takes the top is that when these levels begin to fall the person will experience bursts of anger. This is a learned response in that the body learns that fits of anger boosts the production of cortisol and the production of DHEA lags behind. This gives the body it’s blast it needs and as the DHEA levels rise the rage will pass.
I’m sure just about everyone has had to deal with anger and the calming that follows as the body equalizes itself. But when it happens for no external reason it’s a good sign something is not in balance. This is why there has been lot of work done in the area of DHEA and Bipolar disorder. So as you can see the Body’s production of cortisol is different then what would be supplemented from external sources. In that the body protects itself from the damage it can and will do. Are you protecting Yourself???
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#18  Post by ofonorow » Sat May 04, 2013 2:43 pm

Sir,
These arguments only apply if the total amount of cortisol in the body increases with supplementation. For example, if the body was to make 35 mg, and one added 10 mg, it would be a problem if thus 45 mg wound up in the blood stream.

According to Jefferies, an authority I trust, the amounts are not additive. In the above case, when a person takes 10 mg, the total amount in the blood is still 35 mg! (The adrenals are only called upon to make 25 mg in this case.)

So unless there is some other action (e.g., the molecules are not bioidentical) taking less than what the body would make anyway cannot have any adverse affect. The amount in the blood does not change. Especially with hydrocortisone - the molecule bioidentical with cortisol.

Ergo, the concerns you express below indicate that you must feel that artificial or synthetic cortisol is somehow responsible for all the bad effects that ordinary cortisol from the adrenals does not produce?



Johnwen wrote:I see where you would want to miss the correlation that addictive substances stimulate the HPA axis and when the causative agent is removed the body still craves the rewards of the cortisol rush they experienced when taking the causative substance and how it’s been proven that the same reactions occur when a person takes low dose, long term cortisone therapy and then is taken from them. The so called rested adrenals cannot respond to the brain’s demands and the person experiences the same symptoms as one who is withdrawn from abused substances.
Why does this happen??

Lets assume this is proven. That lazy adrenals cannot immediately make up for discontinued cortisol supplementation. I say, then don't stop supplementation!

Because the body’s natural production of cortisol is equal to it’s production of dehydroepiandrostetone (DHEA). DHEA is a Anti-Cortisol compound that protects the body from the damaging effects of cortisol.

Do you have a reference? This is news (and interesting) to me sir! I thought DHEA was simply a precursor to the various sex hormones, and may have some beneficial attributes of its own?

The main area that it goes to when the body is stressed is the Brain. This protects the cells of the brain which are mainly lipids from being broken down by glycogenisis which is the process of converting fat into sugars which are in high demand during times of stress. By blocking this process in the brain it prevents the feed back that the brain is being attacked and prevents further release of stress hormones which would add more fuel to the fire.

Lets accept this as true, but shouldn't we assume this is a stress response, when the production of cortisol is elevated?
It’s been found that when supplementing even low doses of cortisol for extended periods of time The body produces more sugars and suppress the immune system which give the euphoric effects and pain damping, one experiences but the imbalance in the body allows these hormones to slowly and gradually affect the mind and it’s cognitive functions as the excess blood sugars begin to do their damage elsewhere in the body. The euphoria experienced by the body over rides the damage being done elsewhere till it reaches a point where things start falling apart.

I don't believe this is factual - the reported effects of "low dosages" - given the 30+ years of Pinkus/Jefferies.

How can the same total amount of cortisol (from low dose supplementation) have an effect that ordinary cortisol from the adrenals doesn't have? Why the difference? (I think when we first tried to track down the low dose claim - the "low" dosage turned out to be a very concentrated steroid and the dosage was really astronomical!)


It’s also interesting to note how the body try’s to preserve these higher levels one that takes the top is that when these levels begin to fall the person will experience bursts of anger. This is a learned response in that the body learns that fits of anger boosts the production of cortisol and the production of DHEA lags behind. This gives the body it’s blast it needs and as the DHEA levels rise the rage will pass.

"these higher levels". The point I am trying to make is that when less than what the adrenals would otherwise make are taken, nothing like this can happen so long as what is taken is bioidentical with cortisol.
I’m sure just about everyone has had to deal with anger and the calming that follows as the body equalizes itself. But when it happens for no external reason it’s a good sign something is not in balance. This is why there has been lot of work done in the area of DHEA and Bipolar disorder. So as you can see the Body’s production of cortisol is different then what would be supplemented from external sources. In that the body protects itself from the damage it can and will do. Are you protecting Yourself???

Kind of lost me sir. I'll accept that DHEA is responsible to fix things high cortisol levels screw up in the brain. But the I don't see how this statement follows from the argument?
you can see the Body’s production of cortisol is different then what would be supplemented from external sources


The argument I am trying to make is that there is a certain level of cortisol required by the body for good health, even though the amount in the blood seems to vary during the day.

Since the amount requested can be satisfied by a) adrenal production, or b) external supplementation, it does not matter how the request is satisfied.

According to Dr. William Mck Jefferies, taking more externally will not raise cortisol levels, so long as the amount is less than the "replacement amount" - 8-10 mg prednizone, 25-30 mg hydrocortisone.

Half the replacement is apparently very safe, and the adrenals are only called upon to produce about half their normal daily requirement.

Of course taking higher amounts (as commonly prescribed by doctors around here!) will cause a multitude of bad things to happen. I am not arguing that. Only that the 1/2 replacements amounts are not only safe - they have to be. They cannot be any more dangerous than the adrenals own daily product (under unstressed conditions).

For people whose adrenals cannot satisfy the daily request, (e.g. me!) then there is not sufficient cortisol in the blood to satisfy tissue requirements. In this case, tissues inflame! Pain results, pain that is not present when the requested cortisol is satisfied.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

randian

Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#19  Post by randian » Sat May 04, 2013 3:12 pm

ofonorow wrote:Lets assume this is proven. That lazy adrenals cannot immediately make up for discontinued cortisol supplementation. I say, then don't stop supplementation!

You certainly shouldn't stop supplementation cold-turkey. A slow weaning is better, if you want to see if your adrenals have "rested" and are ready to take up their regular burden.

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#20  Post by Johnwen » Sat May 04, 2013 9:55 pm

These arguments only apply if the total amount of cortisol in the body increases with supplementation. For example, if the body was to make 35 mg, and one added 10 mg, it would be a problem if thus 45 mg wound up in the blood stream.

According to Jefferies, an authority I trust, the amounts are not additive. In the above case, when a person takes 10 mg, the total amount in the blood is still 35 mg! (The adrenals are only called upon to make 25 mg in this case.)


I hope these figures are for example only because a lot of research has been done on this and the average 24 hour production has been measured between 5 and 16 mg./day. Serum levels are ranged at 6 to 23 mcg/dl centered at 14.5mcg/dl. To get a better picture at any given time there is 42 to 48 dl of blood in the adult male body average at 45dl.
So 45 X 14.5=652.5mcg in serum or .6525Mg roughly 5/8 of a Mg. circulating in the serum.
So using the 10Mg. Figure with let’s say 50% absorption or 5Mg. Added to serum. That will give a 766% in serum level increase of unattached cortisol. That’s a big jump of anything in the body.
Also remember your basing a lot of information on a 32 year old theory and a whole lot of research has been done since then. Unlike Pauling’s theories which have NEVER been disproved following his guidelines. Mck Jefferies ideas have been proven dangerous at least, over and over.


Do you have a reference? This is news (and interesting) to me sir! I thought DHEA was simply a precursor to the various sex hormones, and may have some beneficial attributes of its own?


If you go back to my previous post on page 1 titled over the link, “Lets see what this is all about!” and the first article after the abstract is “Cortisol and DHEA(big word)” you will find it there then go down to the references #’s 15-22 also cover this subject.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article ... eID=176622
(slow loader)takes about 2-3 min. Be patient!!!



Here’s some food for thought! As a person ages the hormones produced in the adrenals begin to wane with the exception of Glucocorticoids! Yes there are exceptions as while as other causative factors that reduce their production but for the general population they remain constant well the others begin to drop. This drop is followed by such travesties as diabetes, heart disease, brain dysfunctions, Arthritis, digestive dysfunctions, weak muscles and on and on.
Could it be that the lowering of the protective hormones allows the nasty ones to do their dirty work???

http://www.eje-online.org/content/160/5/719.full
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#21  Post by ofonorow » Sun May 05, 2013 12:51 pm

Johnwen wrote:
I hope these figures are for example only because a lot of research has been done on this and the average 24 hour production has been measured between 5 and 16 mg./day. Serum levels are ranged at 6 to 23 mcg/dl centered at 14.5mcg/dl. To get a better picture at any given time there is 42 to 48 dl of blood in the adult male body average at 45dl.
So 45 X 14.5=652.5mcg in serum or .6525Mg roughly 5/8 of a Mg. circulating in the serum.
So using the 10Mg. Figure with let’s say 50% absorption or 5Mg. Added to serum. That will give a 766% in serum level increase of unattached cortisol. That’s a big jump of anything in the body.



Ah the crux of the issue. Someone is wrong.

First have you read the Jefferies book? And if so, where is he wrong do you think?

The major point in his "Safe Uses of Cortisol" is that there is a safe dosage range. He said the range was determined from breast cancer patients who had their adrenal cortex removed (apparently in an effort to stop the production of estrogens which seemed to be spreading the cancer. Argh!) These cancer patients were entirely dependent on oral cortisol. It was thus determined in the adrenalectomized patients that the body produces on average the equivalent of 35-40 mg of oral hydrocortisone.

He doesn't mention any adjustment for body weight or sex, etc.

So we have the upper limit. i.e., 8-10 mg prednizone, 35-40 mg hyrdrocortisone (cortisol).

Jefferies point is that if we supplement less, the blood levels are not raised "766%".

His experience (and Pinkus et al) over 30 years attest to this as a fact.

Why am I so enamored with this numbers? Because I discovered the identical number in my own case, on my own. 8 mg of methyl prednisolone! (The equivalent of the Jefferies number. This experience was like finding my 180 mg/dl cholesterol matched what Ginters work predicts as published in Pauling's book.)

So one of these ideas is correct. Supplementing the hormone cortisol is additive or it isn't.


Also remember your basing a lot of information on a 32 year old theory and a whole lot of research has been done since then. Unlike Pauling’s theories which have NEVER been disproved following his guidelines. Mck Jefferies ideas have been proven dangerous at least, over and over.

Sir, doctors are not educated on the proper dosage of cortisol (prednisone)! So what is proven over and over is that too much is dangerous. If doctors are being taught correctly, they why are my neighbors prescribed 15 mg or more of prednizone by their doctors for all sorts of ailments? Or 150% of the highest safe dosage?


Here’s some food for thought! As a person ages the hormones produced in the adrenals begin to wane with the exception of Glucocorticoids!


Yes! Exactly! Because as William Mck Jefferies says, it is the only absolutely essential hormone! If you don't make it one day, you don't live to the next.

What seems to be getting lost is this discussion is that the body can and does loose the ability to make "enough" cortisol, just like the other hormones. When this happens and cortisol is in too short a supply, all sorts of inflammatory ailments begin!


Yes there are exceptions as while as other causative factors that reduce their production but for the general population they remain constant well the others begin to drop. This drop is followed by such travesties as diabetes, heart disease, brain dysfunctions, Arthritis, digestive dysfunctions, weak muscles and on and on.
Could it be that the lowering of the protective hormones allows the nasty ones to do their dirty work???

http://www.eje-online.org/content/160/5/719.full

[/quote]

Or maybe cortisol drops too, leading to these travesties?
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#22  Post by Johnwen » Sun May 05, 2013 3:02 pm

What seems to be getting lost is this discussion is that the body can and does loose the ability to make "enough" cortisol, just like the other hormones. When this happens and cortisol is in too short a supply, all sorts of inflammatory ailments begin!


All these High Priced Studies and Articles are incorrect then because of a single book???
Ever hear the saying? Only believe 10% of what you read so you would have to read 10 books to be a believer if they say the same thing. 50% of what you experience so you would have to do it twice and get the same results and if it made you feel good. SOMETHINGS WRONG!

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 004000.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2791527/

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/1/281.full

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11403980

Production levels of cortisol in humans

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/83 ... ull#sec-10

http://www.coreonehealth.com/cortisol-a ... importance
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#23  Post by ofonorow » Mon May 06, 2013 9:52 am

Johnwen wrote:
All these High Priced Studies and Articles are incorrect then because of a single book???


The issue here is always truth. And the theme of this forum and Foundation is that medicine deliberately ignores or obfuscates information that, if well known and accepted, would hurt the economic interests of medicine. There is a deliberate effort to keep "low cost alternatives" from doctors, and this effort includes promoting false, fraudulent, phony studies as real. Vitamin C is the prime example,and there are countless examples, but until last year, I did not realize that cortisol is probably the prime example! The diminished capacity of the adrenals to produce cortisol is perhaps the biggest secret being kept from the public, maybe even bigger than vitamin C! And your resistance tells me just how ingrained this "wrong idea" about cortisol is, as if I didn't already know.

I understand that the negative attitude is based on truth. Cortisol can be a dangerous hormone - when taken in dosages that are too high. Same is true for human growth hormone, and most other hormones I presume.

Your last post postulated that as we age, the production of all adrenal hormones magically wanes, except, wait a minute, cortisol!? For some reason, this is a superman-hormone. We are expected to believe that cortisol never wanes. Yet, cortisol, is notoriously hard to measure. It changes all the time, in response to the brain as we discussed ad naseum previously.

My postulate is that cortisol does wane, causing an enormous amount of illness, and thus is an important cog in the medical economic machine. It is not just one book. Search for Pinkus at pubmed. You will find at least two separate groups reporting that prednizone (less than 10 mg) is safe for RA. One paper reports on Dr. Pinkus's 30+ years in practice.

Ever hear the saying? Only believe 10% of what you read so you would have to read 10 books to be a believer if they say the same thing. 50% of what you experience so you would have to do it twice and get the same results and if it made you feel good. SOMETHINGS WRONG!

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 004000.htm


Cortisol release also decreases with aging, but the blood level of this hormone stays about the same.
Huh?



Moreover, although research has found much variability in the age-related trajectories of cortisol secretion (4,5),

However, studies examining the association between cortisol and physical health show a mixed pattern of findings

Although there is no direct evidence linking functional disability and cortisol secretion, (They used it anyway?)

Thus, we predicted that older adults who secrete high baseline levels of cortisol and report low levels of health-related control strategies would show a steep increase in their functional disabilities over time. By contrast, older adults who secret high levels of cortisol and engage in high levels of control strategies, and older adults with generally low cortisol level, were expected to show considerably smaller increases in their functional disabilities

The saliva samples were stored in participants’ home refrigerators until they were returned to the laboratory 2 to 3 days after collection was completed, and they were subsequently frozen until the completion of the study. (At least these researchers recognized the difficulty of using blood cortisol measurements!)
Overall, the study’s results link for the first time elevated levels of cortisol secretion with changes in older adults’ functional disability.

While somewhat interesting, it does not have much to say about the present discussion, whether supplementing cortisol in the safe range - less than 50% of what the adrenals would secrete - raises overall cortisol.


n summary, we have measured 24-h CPR and daily free cortisol, demonstrating a wide range of normal CPR and cortisol levels in humans of various body weights and ages. Increasing body weight is associated with increasing CPR, which is balanced by enhanced cortisol clearance, resulting in daily plasma free cortisol levels that are invariant to increasing body size.

Okay, so more cortisol is bad. How is this study relevant to the discussion? It has nothing to say about taking cortisol in the safe range, and that do this cannot have adverse effects so long as the total cortisol output is not increased.



These findings are consistent with an impairing effect of high cortisol on episodic memory and mood in older men, which may be attenuated by DHEA.

Again, nothing to say on the issue that supplementing cortisol in the safe range has no effect, can have no effect, unless the total amount of cortisol rises.

Production levels of cortisol in humans

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/83 ... ull#sec-10

Generally, this was over my head, but the most interesting so far. This does have something to say regarding our discussion, that taking supplemental cortisol in the safe range, below what the body would generally secrete, is either safe or it isn.'t. (Now this is the kind of study that could be run to test the Jefferies postulate - see whether supplementation affected the secretion rate. Jefferies would contend that it would cut it proportionally. ) I find the conclusions interesting, as they apply their finds to supplemental dosage!

In conclusion, we report that the daily production of cortisol is 25–30 μmol/(m2·day) or 9–11 mg/(m2·day), and that no significant difference exists between the urinary and the serum values of CPR in men. This estimation of CPR may serve as a guideline for glucocorticoid supplementation therapy. For instance, in children with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, ultimate height can be improved with a cortisol dose of 12 mg/(m2·day), compared with a higher dose (32); and adult men with Addison’s disease, who have been treated for at least 10 yr with a dose of 13.6 mg/(m2·day), showed normal bone mineral density (33). Those treated with higher doses showed inverse correlation between the daily dose and the bone density (33). The urinary route to measure CPR, as described here and elsewhere (15, 16), is simpler and less burdening than that of 24-h blood sampling. Furthermore, the method of deconvolution analysis yields sCPR only under restricted and simple conditions and when a separately determined value of the distribution volume is known. Therefore, this study revalues the use of the urinary method to achieve CPR.


[color=#000080]Consider sir - this study makes my (Jefferies case)! That lower dosages based more on actual adrenal output are better!!!!!!!!!!
[/color]

High levels of cortisol are lethal to brain neurons and seriously impair memory. Again, not as interesting because it has nothing to say about the proposition that safe supplementation of cortisol, below that which the body would otherwise secrete, is safe, because the overall level of cortisol is not increased.

So I don't see how any one of these links make your point? The second to the last supports mine! That lower dosages are safer! Thanks!
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#24  Post by Johnwen » Mon May 06, 2013 11:52 am

So I don't see how any one of these links make your point?


It points to the fact that cortisol production increases with age and with this increase comes some bad effects to all health in general. Adding any amount to the mix would just speed up the process. This is equal to throwing gas on a fire to try to put it out.


Cortisol output increases with stress.

It is not proven that the ability of the adrenals to produce cortisol increases with age, and in fact, I contend that much illness is caused because the adrenals cannot produce enough cortisol to meet the brain's request.


"Adding any amount to the mix would just speed up the process." This is the basic medical misunderstanding we are discussing. Those links (save one) do not address this basic issue. Safe Uses of Cortisol should be mandatory reading by any medical doctor, because this very issue is the central point of the book.

Adding amounts less then 10 mg (prednisone units) do not increase the total amount of cortisol under unstressed conditions. Amounts less than half approaching zero are totally safe. All the mountain of knowledge you can bring to bear amounts to a hill of beans, because it is always pharmacolgical dosages, i.e., dosages that are too high.


In this regard, the results of our study suggest that the use of adaptive control strategies may represent a mechanism that could explain some of the health-related variability, and prevent or delay the development of functional disability among older adults with elevated cortisol output. Given that cortisol secretion may increase in old age, and the substantial size of the observed effect, it seems important to translate these findings into interventions that teach older adults how to use adaptive control strategies. Alternatively, it would be plausible that a pharmacological intervention that successfully reduces tissue exposure to cortisol could ameliorate the development of functional disability, particularly among older adults who have difficulty engaging in adaptive control strategies.



Why is it "given" that cortisol secretion may increase in old age?" For people without adrenal exhaustion, I might concede this point, because it is stressful to get older!

The point I am making is that, for some large portion of the population, the opposite in fact occurs. The adrenals of many people in their 50s start to burn out and they are not able to produce cortisol endogenously that the brain is requesting. So the levels in the body are less than needed to stop inflammation and pain.

The result is always pain. To deprive these people (including me) of cortisol, which is cheaply and accurately made, is immoral because the result of not producing enough cortisol is pain, and you never read about this!


One paper reports on Dr. Pinkus's 30+ years in practice.


Need links! I did a search on Pubmed and came up 1102 hits none are related to Cortisol or any thing in relation to it. Most are from Geraldine Pinkus on cancer.


As I once related in another topic, I was honored to meet Dr. Theodore Pinkus after his Lecture at Rush last year, and I will provide his links (as he has published more than 400 papers and is considered a world expert on Rheumatoid Arthritis - which he told me face-to-face is caused because of cortisol deficiency. When I asked him why this wasn't an established scientific fact, he told me the problem is the inherent difficulty in measuring cortisol..) Anyway, you can find Pinkus and prednisone.

Before going to his links, I would like to make a left turn in this discussion...



Okay, so more cortisol is bad. How is this study relevant to the discussion?

The point I’m trying to get across is that any time you raise the amount of cortisol in the body for an extended amount of time there will be consequences and safe hormonal balance is essential to assure these problems don’t arise.
It’s a simple concept (SITT) Symptoms, Identify, Test, Threat.
If you just ASSUME you have a problem and threat it things probably will get worse over time. Throwing cortisol at any problem that comes along may give relief for a period of time but eventually that relief may turn into other major problems and even more financial gain for the medical and pharma industry.
Have you had any testing done lately? It could be that “I feel Good I don’t need any tests.” type attitude. I see this all the time especially with valves. The “I don’t need any help!” type.
A week later their laying there with a 10” scar on their chest. Saying, “What Happened??”


I have no argument, none, with your statement about raising the amount of cortisol in the body! Bad news.

But only if --the amount of cortisol is higher than the body would ordinarily make under unstressed conditions in persons with healthy adrenals.

The point of the Jefferies work is that you DO NOT RAISE CORTISOL levels above what the body is requesting from the adrenals - by supplementing that amount, or less. For simplicity, 8-10 mg prednisone.

And the amount is surprisingly invariant - not adjusted for body weight, age, gender, etc.

Interestingly, from that study you cited yesterday, 9-11 mg of "cortisol". Strange units.

Anyway, by prescribing less that 8 mg, the only thing that happens is that the adrenals do not have to make 8 mg they would otherwise make.

There is always a safe range, which any discussion of problems of high cortisol obfuscates. I am trying to focus on that safe range, which is apparently unknown to the medical profession!

Dr. Pinkus agrees, by the way, that 1 mg was better than 2 mg, and 2 mg was better than 3 mg, and he was always trying to wean his RA patients down...

So lets drop this and consider a closely related topic.

Is there such a thing as an "autoimmune disease"?

If Dr. Pinkus, a recognized world expert, is correct - Rheumatoid Arthritis is caused by low output of cortisol by the adrenal glands.

Yes, low cortisol levels lead to inflammation - which can look like the body "attacking itself" - inflammation for "no reason."

But there is a reason - not enough of the substance the body uses to put inflammatory fires out - cortisol!
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Tue May 07, 2013 12:24 pm


Astonishing- I tried searching pubmed for Dr. Pinkus - all that material I found last year is hidden or I had a typo.. vely strange... Nothing comes up where hundreds of papers used to...


(my fault - spelled Pincus not Pinkus)...



Thankfully there is google/scholar. So here are some links from google scholar.

I used the search "T. Pinkus prednisone rheumatoid arthritis" at http://google.com/scholar

Efficacy of prednisone 1–4 mg/day in patients with rheumatoid arthritis: a randomised, double-blind, placebo controlled withdrawal clinical trial
http://ard.bmj.com/content/68/11/1715.short

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10165-008-0056-x#page-1
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/1294735
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=713106
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=715008
http://www.clinexprheumatol.org/article.asp?a=2212
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521694200901311
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/art.21298/full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8103964

some other non-Pinkus papers on prednizone and RA

Low-Dose Prednisone Therapy for Patients with Early Active Rheumatoid Arthritis: Clinical Efficacy, Disease-Modifying Properties, and Side Effects: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=715000&issueno=1

http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/6358491

Here is a somewhat negative study - though the dose was high - 8 mg for years.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/7966059[url][/url]
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#26  Post by Johnwen » Wed May 08, 2013 10:39 am

Hay Owen:
Somehow you placed your prior post in my responce. Ie my posting got deleted and yours got put in with my name on it. Good thing I did it on my word proccesor and it got saved. So I'll do a repost here which you can copy and paste back in the right place and position yours back prior to it. Then just wipe this one out after your done. Need a day or so to digest pincus writtings.

COPY TO FOLLOW


So I don't see how any one of these links make your point?


It points to the fact that cortisol production increases with age and with this increase comes some bad effects to all health in general. Adding any amount to the mix would just speed up the process. This is equal to throwing gas on a fire to try to put it out.

. In this regard, the results of our study suggest that the use of adaptive control strategies may represent a mechanism that could explain some of the health-related variability, and prevent or delay the development of functional disability among older adults with elevated cortisol output. Given that cortisol secretion may increase in old age, and the substantial size of the observed effect, it seems important to translate these findings into interventions that teach older adults how to use adaptive control strategies. Alternatively, it would be plausible that a pharmacological intervention that successfully reduces tissue exposure to cortisol could ameliorate the development of functional disability, particularly among older adults who have difficulty engaging in adaptive control strategies.


One paper reports on Dr. Pinkus's 30+ years in practice.

Need links! I did a search on Pubmed and came up 1102 hits none are related to Cortisol or any thing in relation to it. Most are from Geraldine Pinkus on cancer.

Okay, so more cortisol is bad. How is this study relevant to the discussion?

The point I’m trying to get across is that any time you raise the amount of cortisol in the body for an extended amount of time there will be consequences and safe hormonal balance is essential to assure these problems don’t arise.
It’s a simple concept (SITT) Symptoms, Identify, Test, Threat.
If you just ASSUME you have a problem and threat it things probably will get worse over time. Throwing cortisol at any problem that comes along may give relief for a period of time but eventually that relief may turn into other major problems and even more financial gain for the medical and pharma industry.
Have you had any testing done lately? It could be that “I feel Good I don’t need any tests.” type attitude. I see this all the time especially with valves. The “I don’t need any help!” type. A week later their laying there with a 10” scar on their chest. Saying, “What Happened??”
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#27  Post by ofonorow » Thu May 09, 2013 10:53 am

Oopps sorry. Now even I am confused!?


Lest summarize where we think we are so far. The medical viewpoint, as exposed by your sir, is that any additional cortisol added exogenously for long periods is bad, or potentially bad.

We both agree that cortisol above and beyond what the body requires to deal with pain is bad.

There are tons of studies and reports about the evils of elevated cortisol.

So my question is whether medicine believes there is a any safe range at all?

I think we can both agree that zero cortisol would be bad. (A person without cortisol would have difficulty living more than 24 hours. This from personal experience.)

Science has identified the normal range of cortisol secretion. That study you cited came very close to what Pincus told me is the known or accepted daily output. Between 8 and 11 mg (in units of oral prednisone).

We agree that any sustained supplementation of more than 11 mg of prednisone is "bad".

If so, then the argument is only regarding a supplemental dosage between 1 mg and 7 mg of prednizone.

I agree that a dosage closer to 1 mg daily is safer than a dosage closer to 7 mg daily.

What I learned from Jefferies is that taking 4 mg does not raise the adrenal secretion above what the brain is requesting. You apparently disagree, and this should be what we are looking for in the science. If the output of a healthy adrenal gland would be 11 mg, Jefferies says taking 4 mg, the adrenal output is then only 7 mg. Because of the hormones released by the brain that control the release of cortisol are reduced as more cortisol circulates in the blood.

Your arguments imply to me that you believe the total cortisol in the body would be 11 mg + the 4 or 15 mg.

I am also trying to make the point that cortisol's primary function is in reducing pain, by reducing inflammation. I have not read, but I think I have discovered that without cortisol, tissues inflame, so low levels of cortisol creates pain and inflammation, which has been called autoimmune diseases and/or disorders. The body apparently attacking itself for no reason.

The reason is hidden by medicines prejudice and bias against cortisol. It apparently never enters a doctors mind that chronic pain, esp. Rheumatoid Arthritis, is caused by deficient levels of cortisol!

And that safe dosages are known, (but apparently not by medical doctors these days), supplemental dosages that can be lowered as the adrenal gland's ability to produce cortisol on their own increases.



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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#28  Post by Johnwen » Fri May 10, 2013 11:44 am

I am also trying to make the point that cortisol's primary function is in reducing pain, by reducing inflammation. I have not read, but I think I have discovered that without cortisol, tissues inflame, so low levels of cortisol creates pain and inflammation, which has been called autoimmune diseases and/or disorders. The body apparently attacking itself for no reason.




I believe I see where the confusion is coming from I’ll try to explain it as best I can. I’ll see if I can find some links that will further the explanation.

Ok first you must understand that there is two basic types of cortisol floating around inside the body. They are “BOUND,” and “FREE,” (or unbound) The bounded portion makes up about 90% of the total cortisol. About 75% of the bound is attached to Transcortin which is also known as CBG (Cortisol Binding Globulin) the remainder is bound to albumin. This is the necessary form of cortisol in that it is taken into the cells as food and aids in the production of energy. It is also the form that attacks the inflammation process. The CBG is released from the liver and circulates and attaches to the cortisol.

The other form is the FREE unbounded type. Which is the one that the body uses in stressful situations and the one that helps keep us awake during the day. Down at the cellular level it has one job and that is to drive out potassium and intake calcium into the cell, creating a hypertonic state. Which basically means it tenses the cell. In muscle cells this means you now have the power to run away from whatever is stressing the body.

When the body is relaxed the levels of CBG elevate binding higher amounts of cortisol. While under continued stress CBG is lowered and more free cortisol is made available.
This all usually works well. Now lets see what happens when we add an external source. During the day cortisol is released in highs and lows depending on the body’s needs these are bound and some free to meet its needs, it figures to about 11mg over a 24 hour period. Now you add 4mg at ONE POINT and the free fraction now goes through the roof and starts going directly to the cells the liver jumps into action and starts pumping out transcortin. The cells that had damage and are inflamed tense up and drive out the inflammation markers muscles go tight. However there is no crisis however the adrenals kick out high levels of EPI and any pain that was present is masked. The body knowing it needs to get these levels back under control, releases fluid reserves and the kidneys kick into high gear the liver begins to open up CBG receptors and starts pushing them out to the gall bladder for removal. As the levels of free cortisol begin to wane the CBG still remains high and the adrenals have shut down production of cortisol. Any cortisol that is free now becomes bound and levels of free are lacking so the pituitary glands signal the adrenals to start production but due to the imbalance of CBG in the system all production is bound and signals go to that adrenals to produce more cortisol which then starts to rise the liver’s production of Transcortin. This roller coaster ride continues until a steady state is maintained and reestablished. In the mean time all that bound cortisol needs to go somewhere since there’s to much to use it all and the liver is over loaded. It goes to the bodies warehouse that can be accessed rapidly if needed Rapid access, is a place called BELLY FAT!
Now lets keep doing this every day eventually what happens is the body begins to prepare for the daily storm. It begins raising the production CBG which starts lowering the free cortisol and the body starts feeling fatigued and in anticipation epi and endogenous production of cortisol become depressed and pain starts to become more noticeable.
The brain says “IT’S TIME FOR OUR BLAST!” Down goes the pill and the roller coaster ride starts.
Eventually the body will start to just maintain higher levels CBG which will then call for higher levels cortisol to maintain a balance which means the adrenals will be required to produce more and since the cells diet of bound cortisol is maxed out the excess go’s to the belly. Now seriously does this sound like a way to threat adrenal fatigue??
You’ll note I stayed away from other effects this has on the body and focused just on the key players involved here.
I often question why they don’t make a extended release pill so the body can see lower supplementation but I answered my own question in that continued use of such a pill would result in adrenal failure if it were used for a extended amount of time.
This why the get in, get it done, and get out type of treatment is the gold standard with cortisol.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#29  Post by w6nrw » Fri May 10, 2013 1:23 pm

Absolutely beautiful!
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#30  Post by Johnwen » Tue May 14, 2013 9:59 am

Heres a few links to read on the subject.
The first one needs a medscape log in. Join it's free and they e-mail links to you on a subject that intrests the individual.
https://login.medscape.com/login/sso/ge ... DQ5&ac=401

This one is open.
http://thehealthscience.com/wiki/Cortic ... g-Globulin

This is about Cortisols Brother. Just like any other brothers their always Fighting each other.

http://www.encognitive.com/node/12840
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