Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#46  Post by ofonorow » Wed May 22, 2013 11:15 am

kohlrabicroce wrote:
ofonorow wrote:
The answer is that my blood sugar rose.

This shouldn't happen at 4 mg. If I take 4, the adrenals should only produce around 4. The total cortisol must have been more than 8-10 (in prednizone units) for the sugar to rise above 400 again.

. . .

But why then doesn't anyone under stress reach 400 mg/dl blood sugar. Appreciate your post and thoughts.


Wait, your blood sugar rose to 400 mg/dl when you increased your dose again, after going down to 1 mg?
I'm not clear about whether it happened at a dose of 4 mg before you tried to reduce it, but I am just
beginning to learn about adrenal fatigue (and suspect I might have it).


I will try to explain.

I have been taking 4 mg methyl prednisolone daily for about a year. Started a 8 mg, but was able to lower it to 4 mg. 2 mg upon waking and another 2 mg in the afternoon.

If I forget a dose - I feel it. Inflammation in joints, so I am pretty rigorous. I also make a record in a journal.

Sugar had been elevated about a year ago - I blame a too high dose of hydrocortisone. Took a while, but eventually my fasting sugar lowered and seemed to stabilize at 120 mg/dl. On 4 mg m. pred.

So during this discussion, about a week ago, I noticed excessive thirst !? Took my sugar - several hours after a meal, but it was 450 mg/ld!


So weirdly my blood sugar is again out of control. At that point, I lowered my intake of cortisol (methyl prednisolone) to 2 mg. 1 mg twice a day. When I try to reduce to 1 mg - I get the prickly inflammation I described.

But I do know a little about diabetes, as I have it. 400 mg/dl is really bad! I would go talk
to your doctor about it! Wow !

Sounds like this situation is complicated and needs some discussion with your real doctor, in person.

Just my opinion!

It is interesting, my doc wasn't too concerned. Says that most "bad things" that happen to diabetics are caused by the sugar substitute, esp. Apartame. Told me stories of patients healthy with high blood sugar for extended periods. But yes, I'd like to get back to around 100 mg/dl!

Now I wonder if this might be insulin related - due to the missing part of pancreas?



But I do agree with your opinion that "it is so simple, it cannot be accepted" by the medical profession.

I know you like that book you recommend, but I'm going to start with Dr. Wilson's book:
"Adrenal Fatigue: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome."

I found out about the Jefferies Book from the Wilson book, but they are like night and day. There is no comparison. The important knowledge is contained in the Jefferies book SAFE USES OF CORTISOL. Knowledge I wish every doctor had.

And it was interesting all the things that can be "fixed" by taking cortisol (from Johnwen's link)!

If the same things were related to vitamin C, not taking enough, we'd consider them indicators of vitamin C deficiency. (and some are)

So why aren't all those conditions, treatable with cortisol, indicators of a cortisol deficiency!!
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#47  Post by kohlrabicroce » Wed May 22, 2013 11:45 am

Owen, thanks for explaining. If I may give my two cents: if your doctor tries to get you on diabetic meds,
first try to eat a low carb diet and see if that will control your blood sugar. But do test your blood glucose
a lot, and Johnwen's suggestion to do an A1C test was good.

The low carb diet option is not one that everybody will go for, but it works out better than the usual
high carb diet plus meds. If that does not do it, go for the meds in addition to the low carb diet. That is,
if it turns out you do have a consistent problem. If not for eating a low carb diet, I would certainly be on
meds.

As for your doctor's statement that he "Says that most "bad things" that happen to diabetics are caused
by the sugar substitute, esp. Aspartame," Wow, I never heard that one. That is *so* wrong.
Most bad things that happen to diabetics are because of uncontrolled blood sugar.
And I would add increased problems with oxidation.

I disagree that living with high blood sugar for long periods of time is just fine, even
despite your doctor's anecdotal stories. If I may recommend a book:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0054U581W

Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution: The Complete Guide to Achieving Normal Blood Sugars

He's more in favor of eating low carb, and using less meds as a result. He's been
diabetic practically all his life, and is still going strong. But there's a lot more in there.

Er, you might want to go an endocrinologist with your blood sugar problems.

Hope that helps!

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#48  Post by ofonorow » Wed May 22, 2013 12:13 pm

Can't resist playing devil's advocate to several points...
Johnwen wrote:
My own speculation is that the aches and pains in the morning upon waking up as we age, are caused by low cortisol in the a.m., with sluggish adrenals, which get kicked up to speed. Just speculating.


Combined these two here they say about the same thing.
I don’t see a argument here because it’s a known fact that cortisol increases with age due to the decline of other hormones produced by the adrenal glands. This decrease causes an increase by the pituitary gland of ACTH. Since endogenous production of cortisol is necessary for life itself the part of the adrenal known as the zona fasciculata of the adrenal cortex that produces cortisol, it is also the most protected part of the adrenal gland. This increase of ACTH is an attempt to balance the other hormones however it also increases the protected cortisol beyond which it would normally produce allowing it to do it’s damage to the body and Brain. For the skeptics, here is a article and 2 studies that will demonstrate this function in more a techy presentation.


I don't think it is established the "Cortisol secretion" increases with age. I saw some of the work you referenced,and perhaps in ordinary individuals of normal health, they secrete more - because it is stressful to age.

and I agree that signals from the brain go haywire, but me thinks for the opposite reasons given. Not because of the other hormones, but because of the lack of cortisol.

My point is that it is common sense that cortisol, like every other hormone in the human body, starts to decline, especially after age 50. (The glandular production declines as the glands age. ) I agree cortisol is probably the most important hormone and thus would have special protection.

But I believe it is an error to assume that our glands increase their capacity to produce cortisol as we age.

This error leads to medicine not looking to replenish this declining hormone.


http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/jul ... sol_01.htm

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6823/9/16

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2680862/

There’s about 1400 others available that date back to the 80’s

Doctors who are afraid to prescribe it, end up making a lot more money than if they did. That is the thesis, that this is simply another area where medicine is wrong - in favor of treatment of chronic diseases with pharmaceuticals.


Actually it would end up costing them a lot more money from the malpractice lawsuits that would follow from the damage it would do. In case you haven’t noticed. Cortisol is a prescription drug which means it is a pharmaceutical.

Why is cortisol - a primary hormone - any different than DHEA? Yes, I am profoundly grateful to the discovery and manufacture of these "drugs" (I call them replacement hormones) but I am also glad that vitamin c is made by a "pharmaceiutical" too.

You are correct that based on today's standard of care, which I believe is wrong on many counts, doctors could be liable. However, in a perfect world, where doctors were properly trained on cortisol hormone replacement and safe dosages, there would be few serious issues, and a lot of pain would be relieved.


By the way, Coritsol is not a "feel good" drug, any more than Aspirin is a "feel good drug." Yes, it stops pain, and I guess, come to think of it, that is why they call them NSAIDS - Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory Drugs... Cortisol is THE anti-inflammatory "drug". (Natural hormone!)

You said it, “NON- STEROIDAL” developed to avoid the deleterious effects of steroids. Cortisol is a STEROID!

Sir, isn't cholesterol a steroid? (Yes)
Isn't vitamin D a steriod? (Yes)
Aren't all hormones that derive from cholesterol steroids? (yes)

It was interesting in yesterdays link that cortisol is a catabolic steroid (as opposed to an an anabolic steroid like testosterone)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

Saying it has been studied so there is nothing more to learn, hides and obscures the fact that a lot of pain can easily be eliminated if M.D.s were trained properly.


They are trained properly to, “First Do No Harm!” There is a lot of drugs out there that work very well but have nasty side effects with long and some short term usage. They are trained to weight the benefits versus harm and to recognize when it’s time to stop and reevaluate and take a different course before the Harm becomes irreversible. Cortisol falls into this category.

and this is were medicine is wrong. THis is the basics of this discussion and argument. dosage. As we have discussed ad absurdium - yes, high dosages of cortisol (more than 8-10 mg daily) are dangerous over the long term. No argument what-so-ever.

What you seemed uninclined to consider is that all those conditions that are 'treated' with cortisol, are actually indicators of cortisol deficiency, and that dosages as described/prescribed by Dr. Jefferies, these conditions would be safely treated.

The unfounded fear is created by all that work with extremely to very high dosages - and the new very strong steroid analogs..


Before I describe last night, sometimes, don't you think we are all taking part in some kind of Alien Child's High School Science Experiment in Human Behavior or Human Physchology? Could all these things be coincidence? (Like my arguing for cortisol.. Then the experimenter pushes a button - and my blood sugar rises - during the argument here. Strange, that's all.)


Owen! In all earnest you really need to get a hormone saliva test done and find out what the heck is really going on before things get to far gone. There a little pricey but as I always ask “What is your health worth to you?”
Then you can locate a good bio-identical compounding pharmacy and get the right balance of what your body needs to provide optimal health without doing more harm then good. Once you get on the right path you’ll understand what I’m saying and your ageing body will think it’s a lot younger then your drivers license says.

A cortisol saliva test? Actually, this may be a coincidence and perhaps i should be looking at insulin? Given the lost pancreas and especially if high dose vitamin c (which I have taken daily since 1986) does induce an insulin response with every dose!
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#49  Post by Johnwen » Wed May 22, 2013 12:15 pm

Oh since your going to get all "ego" on me, here you go:

American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists Medical Guidelines for Developing a Diabetes Mellitus Comprehensive Care Plan - © 2011

https://www.aace.com/publications/guidelines

See page 7 with Table 5 - Glucose Testing and Interpretation.

That is even more strict than what I said. That is , less than or equal to
99 mg /dl for the fasting plasma glucose is normal. 100 to 125
is impaired.

But I guess you know more than those pesky endocrinologists, eh?

The AACE is an organization that keeps the endocrinologisst informed.

Are you an endocrinologist?


You still haven't answered my question and you come back with some other questions? Then make derogatory comments to top it off and then expect someone to listen to you!
Good luck with that!!
Any body can read all these different studies and not support them with actual experience. As I said before and will say again. Everybody is different and every day is different. Each patient has to be elvaluated on their own conditions and not what a list tells you it should be. This only comes with experience in dealing with these problems.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#50  Post by Johnwen » Wed May 22, 2013 12:26 pm

Owen: This is from your yesterday’s prior post in regards to the link shown.

There many errors in this link http://www.wellness.com/reference/aller ... une-system that I feel obligated to comment:


You say that you found many errors and then continue on to criticize different aspects of this report. I would like to know what these are based on and what if any you can do to prove that what your saying over rides what is written in this report. Do you have any links to studies or articles that can verify these statements you made. Because some if not all do not coincide with proven medical understanding.
An example is what you ended your post with as follows.
This is what you wrote about the list of conditions.

I say no wonder "THEY" want doctors ignorant! Where is Rheumatoid Arthritis or Fibromyalgia on this list?


This is from the list that you quoted to make the above statement

adrenal cortical insufficiency and rheumatic disorders.


Rheumatic disorders!! The list of rheumatic disorders includes Rheumatoid arthritis and Fibromyalgia among the other 15+ conditions Cortisol is used to threat that fall into this category.
Your degrading comment is thus unfounded because it’s very well covered.

http://www.webmd.com/rheumatoid-arthrit ... c-diseases

http://www.sharecare.com/question/how-r ... bromyalgia
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#51  Post by ofonorow » Thu May 23, 2013 6:28 am

Again, I may have missed a post - but tried to split the digression off cortisol into another topic.

Johnwen, you are right - I missed seeing "rheumatic disorders" - because that list is so long!

And doesn't that list make you pause?

I tried to outline the errors in the report, in my opinion, because they are subtle, such as not emphasizing that the primary function of cortisol is its anti-imflammatory property. Or the wrong idea that safe dosage of cortisol impairs immune function. (Again, why have I not had any infection since I started cortisol supplementation?)

First, today my fasting sugar was 210. (Down from around 270 a few days ago) and I am now on 1 mg methyl prednisolone without pain.. My conclusion is that my adrenals can now make my daily requirement, or nearly, around 8 mg (in prednisone units). Yea!

But the point I have been trying to make is that if there is ANY pain in the body, there isn't enough cortisol to suppress it.

I am now convinced (from my own experience) that PAIN is a signal to the brain to secrete more cortisol (as are perhaps other stressors).

In people, especially over age 50, whose adrenal glands cannot keep up, or have been burned out, and cannot meet the request, the result of sub optimal secretion of cortisol is chronic pain. Also, perhaps one or more of all those conditions listed that are treated by cortisol in your link result!

Now, anecdotally, I know that doctors who treat those conditions use the wrong (too high) dosages, so naturally, the literature will be full of reports of "adverse reactions" to this high cortisol. I have three neighbors with conditions that were prescribed cortisol - two by infectious disease doctors - and all dosages were more than 10 mg prednisone. Doctors should be trained in the knowledge in William Mck Jefferies SAFE USES OF CORTISOL.

I don't fault you johnwen, you are a product of your training. I am trying to be an unbiased observer, that happens to have had the condition of almost no cortisol output - and lived! (I lived from a combination of regular IV/C along with a methyl prednisolone med pak!. The zero cortisol output probably resulted from the strong steroid IV I was given just before leaving the hospital.)

I just find it interesting, and sad, that forces promoting sickness have been able to influence the entire medical profession that cortisol is always dangerous. And that attitude, just happens to create and sustain a lot of unnecessary pain.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#52  Post by Johnwen » Thu May 23, 2013 9:52 am

I’m definitely not trying to down play the power of cortisol, it has many uses and benefits many people but it is the proverbial “Wolf in sheep’s clothing.”
As such the patient has to be monitored closely and take no minor sign as a passing issue while taking this drug. There are times when it is administered by symptoms like severe Bronchitis. However where indications are that the therapy would be extended beyond a titrated up and down high dose, extensive testing needs to be done to look for deficiency’s else where and correcting them first before proceeding with the cortisol. Then these tests could be used as a baseline to monitor the patients progress. However with today’s, “Threat em and street em.” type money based system few will take the time to do this and since the possibility of harm is there they will opt away from it only weighing heavy on it’s side effects. This is why there is a push for drugs that will give the same relief without the serious side effects of cortisol. Because the proper testing takes time and restructuring the other deficiency’s first then proceed on to cortisol if needed would more then likely be met with resistance from the insurance providers. So I think you can see by this, that it’s not the ignorance of the doctors but it falls back on the time/money issue that limits it’s usage or for that matter the correct diagnoses.
This is what I’ve attempted to show that just throwing a cortisol pill at every ache and pain can be dangerous unless the proper testing truly shows it’s what’s needed to correct the problem. In your case I truly believe that there is a deficiency of another hormone that is causing all these reactions and yes cortisol is overpowering the symptoms but it is not correcting the problem. That’s why I’m recommending a Complete HORMONE 3 period Saliva test. NOT just a cortisol test but a COMPLETE HORMONE PANEL. I could make a educated guess as to which one I suspect, as I have suspicions but without proper testing it would be just a guess. Get tested get healthy!
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#53  Post by tjohnson_nb » Fri May 24, 2013 11:32 am

In the ensuing six years I have learned that there are at least two ways
in which C encompasses the relief of arthritic (or any inflamma-
tory) pain: (1) By competitively inhibiting the enzyme phosphodi-
esterase, it protects the cyclonucleotide cyclic AMP and thus makes
more of the latter available to mediate the production of cortisone -
- which, being home-made, does not have the undesireable side
effects of the synthetic steroids; and (2) by maximizing the conver-
sion of dietary linoleic acid into steroids; and (2) by maximizing
the conversion of dietary linoleic acid into PGE-2, which among
other things governs the inflammatory process.


Found this here http://www.arthritistrust.org/Articles/Vitamin%20C%20How%20to%20Use%20the%20Great%20Missing%20Vitamin.pdf

It almost sounds as if Vit C can help in the production of cortisone? Elsewhere I have read that it can lower cortisone levels after stressful situations.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#54  Post by ofonorow » Sat May 25, 2013 5:46 am

Both would be good.

Not wanting to argue, just reporting. This just might be a coincidence :shock: ....

Yesterday, urination became a little difficult, soreness. Like a bladder infection, so I began a 5 Lypo-C protocol w/cranberry juice.

Yesterday afternoon a dull headache started, something like a caffeine withdrawal headache, and then last night, it got worse, pain in the back of neck that traveled down my back!

Reminiscent, if not exactly, the first symptoms which preceded my two ER and long hospital stays! http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9194

Fingers and knuckles are not sore!

A virus? And why now? I have been feeling good, no illness for the better part of a year while on the 4 mg cortisol.

A few days ago, I go down to 1 mg - and yesterday I start to experience deja vu all over again.

I cannot risk fluid build up around the heart again, so I am going to increase back up to 3 mg cortisol and see what happens. See if I can balance the elevated sugar and these symptoms.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#55  Post by Johnwen » Sat May 25, 2013 10:37 am

Your post sent me to the CDC site on allergens. So I checked the 60532 zip.
Virus and bacteria cases are LOW to very low.
Mold is low to medium. Most prominent are Acrospores, cladosporium, Myxomycetes all are low problem makers.
Tree pollens are moderate today the 3 higher producers are Mulberry, Maple and OAK
Oak is a booger lot of people react to their pollen So I gave this a ???
Tuesday is suppose to be a Big Hit day for you guys. Their predicting Double amounts compared to today. Probably a good day to stay inside and do book work.
One caveat Melrose Park reported excessively high levels of Pinacae (pine) and Salix (willow) spores this morning. These are known sinus attackers.

So there really is not much as far as allergens going on Today!
Tuesday is another story!


At this point I agree with your idea and that’s go with your feelings if you feel you need it raise it up (like you said 3mg) and see.
Till you can get a baseline and idea what’s up through testing that’s all you got to go on. Just watch your sugar levels. If you can half your tabs you might want to try that ½ am and ½ early to mid afternoon and see if that has less effect on the sugar. Some have scribes on the tab for half dosing. These are blended for more even dispersion of active component in the tab. If there not scribed there usually pretty even but that depends on the manufacturing process.
Question?
You said 3mg. Are you sure it’s not 2.5 Mg.
I looked at my list here to see which are scribed and which are not and see the lower dose is 1, 2.5, 5, 10> it appears all listed are scribed but that doesn’t mean what you have are.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#56  Post by ofonorow » Sun May 26, 2013 2:33 pm

Thanks johnwen. My m. p. tablets are 4 mg - with 2 lines, so they can easily be cut in half - to 2 mg, and then in half again - 1 mg.

I am now one-half pill (2 mg) when I wake up, and then 1 mg in the early afternoon. Symptoms have subsided, resolved.

Another question.

Fasting blood sugar. we know cortisol raises blood sugar, but why is it low during the night, and what keeps our blood sugar up while sleeping? We don't eat while sleeping, yet our fasting blood sugar is sustained.

Yet, cortisol rises during the day, then drops off and is presumably low during sleep , and melatonin apparently takes over during sleep.

So if cortisol levels are low at night, how is blood sugar maintained? A guess would be a delayed effect in the liver?
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#57  Post by ofonorow » Wed May 29, 2013 8:03 am

report.

3 mg basically the same as 4 mg cortisol (methyl prednisolone).

I got curious and for the past couple of says, I lowered the dosage down to 2 mg (1 mg a.m 1 mg afternoon).

So far so good. I can tell it is borderline.

Fasting sugar is under 200.

Still curious what controls blood sugar release from liver during sleep.


Edit - added... All is not perfect at 2 mgs... My cheek lymph nodes are swollen, bottom of jaw, near neck,making it difficult to chew (like lockjaw).. I had cut down from 5 Lypo-C to 2, going back up to 5.

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#58  Post by Johnwen » Wed May 29, 2013 1:54 pm

Ok I read your posts a couple of times to get it clear and it appears that there is a little confusion on cortisol and insulin. Cortisol blunts insulin or you could say cortisol counteracts insulin. When cortisol levels are high, sugar levels in the blood will be high when cortisol levels are reduced, Like at night effective insulin levels will rise allowing more glucose to enter the cells and help them reenergize which causes the blood glucose levels to drop because it is being utilized by the cells through the use of effective insulin. This is all a balancing act that requires all players involved to be at their proper levels and cell reception to be present. I’ll avoid complications that can arise for the sake of clarity. As far as depressed sugar levels just at night the average Normal, healthy adult has sufficient stores of sugar to last up 72 hours without external intake as while cortisol ability to create glycogenesis of fat which is the conversion of fat to glucose a person can sustain for as long as the fat holds out. The test for low nocturnal glucose levels involves awaking at 2-3am and test your levels anything over 60 is considered normal. Now try to go back to sleep after poking yourself and trying to read the meter let alone write it down. Hope this clears this up!


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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#59  Post by ofonorow » Fri May 31, 2013 8:50 am

Yes, but now I have to think about it. Are you saying that glucocortocoids work on blood sugar in at least two ways - counteracting insulin (like insulin resistance) and also by helping release glucose from the liver?

Back to my own cortisol experiment, as I am becoming somewhat of an expert on my own dosages.

For the record.

I have been on 2 mg (1 mg a.m and 1 mg early p.m.) for several days without any outright pain. (I suspect that dropping from 4 mg directly to 1 mg was too much, and it took a while for my own adrenals to adjust to the higher output. Thus Dr. Pincus's advice to drop by 1 mg, over time, and see the results before dropping an additional mg.)

But I have muscle weakness. Hard to lift my arms, and some dizziness in the a.m. Since there is no pain, I could live like this and not be angry all the time at organized medicine!

In summary, started this process at 8 mg.

About a year ago, cut down to 4 mg after the first high-blood sugar episode.

Felt very well, no sickness on 2 mg a.m., 2 mg early p.m., until last month when I experience the second high-blood sugar episode.

Cut down to 1 mg - and started to reexperience the symptoms that led to the two week-long hospitalizations, starting with an infection, then headache, neck and back pain.

Going up to 3 mg - brought me to near normal..

dropping to 2 mg - to see what happens, is where I am now. No outright pain, no feeling of infection at the moment, but generalized muscle weakness and dizziness.

Hope to have the hormone panel when I speak soon with my "cortisol" doc - haven't received the saliva test that I thought I ordered...
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#60  Post by Johnwen » Fri May 31, 2013 10:28 am

Little short on time right now so I'll be breif!

dropping to 2 mg - to see what happens, is where I am now. No outright pain, no feeling of infection at the moment, but generalized muscle weakness and dizziness.


What is your sugar levels at this dose??

When I get a little more time I'll go into detail about what the body does when insulin is suppressed and it needs sugar. UGH!
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