Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#61  Post by ofonorow » Fri May 31, 2013 10:44 am

My fasting sugar is now between 170 mg and 220 mg - and I know there is probably a +-10 mg error in the device.

Light headed is a more accurate term than "dizzy".

Now, this LPI link from another topic on blood pressure provides fascinating inormation!! http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/potassium/

Deficiency (K)

An abnormally low plasma potassium concentration is referred to as hypokalemia. Hypokalemia is most commonly a result of excessive loss of potassium, e.g., from prolonged vomiting, the use of some diuretics, some forms of kidney disease, or metabolic disturbances. The symptoms of hypokalemia are related to alterations in membrane potential and cellular metabolism. They include fatigue, muscle weakness and cramps, and intestinal paralysis, which may lead to bloating, constipation, and abdominal pain. Severe hypokalemia may result in muscular paralysis or abnormal heart rhythms (cardiac arrhythmias) that can be fatal (2, 4).


Reminded me that recently I had severe cramps after taking a walk with my wife.. In several leg muscles at the same time.

Maybe the muscle weakness is unrelated to cortisol - unless there is some relation to electrolyte status?

Because the following fascinating tidbit comes next:



In rare cases, habitual consumption of large amounts of black licorice has resulted in hypokalemia (6, 7). Licorice contains a compound (i.e., glycyrrhizic acid) with similar physiologic effects to those of aldosterone, a hormone that increases urinary excretion of potassium. Low dietary intakes of potassium do not generally result in hypokalemia (5). However, research indicates that insufficient dietary potassium increases the risk of a number of chronic diseases (see Disease Prevention).


Why is this interesting? I have been taking the NOGERD product daily for some time, after individuals here at the forum said it had stopped their chronic GERD. (It does seem to work, in the sense that the problem is worse if this product is not taken.) The product, from LetsTalkHealth.com has one ingredient on the label - Licorice Root.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#62  Post by Johnwen » Fri May 31, 2013 4:30 pm

I read your last posting after I wrote this. I still think you’ll see more of a connection here then what your saying. This can reek a lot more havoc then the other. With your ranges I have one raised eyebrow!!
We seen from the prior post that when cortisol increases the effectiveness of insulin and or the production is decreased. We see that the sugar levels will rise in the blood which don’t seem all that bad at first but as we’ll see what happen next isn’t all that good. As any parent knows when a baby needs food they very well let them know. Same thing happens when our cells aren’t getting their sugar fix. Not from lack of it, the blood has plenty floating around in it but from the material necessary to get it into the cells. Using the baby example again. This is like giving the child a pint of milk/formula and expecting him to quite down. Not going to happen! You have to use the proper tools to get that milk/formula into the child to do some good Ie. Filled Bottle with a nipple on it.
However in our body when the cells aren’t getting the sugar into them the body responds by trying to produce more. Since it’s not coming from outside sources it starts to produce it’s own by breaking down fat and muscle. This process does come with a price which are the chemicals released during this transference. I call them paint solvents because you can buy these compounds at any hardware store. They are Acetone and ketones (MEK). To save me from trying to write what they are. I’ll let Wiki give us the inside of this process.

Let’s start with A diabetic type view of what happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetic_ketoacidosis


Now we’ll look at Ketosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis


Now when things start getting too far out of hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketonuria

I think after reading these you’ll see the analogy I used is a close comparison and about as productive as a baby holding it’s breath till it gets it’s bottle.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#63  Post by Johnwen » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:07 am

Here's a clinical guideline from the Cleveland clinic I thought you might be interested in.
If you place your cousor next to the slide bars when it turns to a doubleheaded arrow and left click it and hold you can drag all the side junk out of the way and get a better more readable article.

http://ccjm.org/content/78/11/748.full.pdf+html
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#64  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:02 am

Sir please check my math. from the above article, .75 mg/kg dosage, so if the average man is 70 kg - that means 70 * .75 or 52.5 mg prednisone dosage causes diabetes!!! No arguments there!

This discussion is about the safe range of cortisol intake, or less than 8-10 mg!

As I am becoming somewhat of an expert on minute (mg) changes in cortisol intake, I want to record that at my current sustained intake of 3 mg methyl prednisolone (2 mg a.m. 1 mg p.m.) I don't have any outright pain, only in my knees when I walk up stairs. Fasting sugar is now 180-190 mg.

The pain walking up stairs reminds me that it was totally gone on 4 mgs! (not only gone, my wife and I played tennis almost every day last summer!) This pain is reminiscent of how I felt after I was in the hospital. And it is becoming harder to walk up stairs as the days go on.

So one lousy mg is enough to make joints stiff an painful when some amount of force is applied. 1 mg!

After reading the Thyroid book, I see that Thyroid is complimented by Cortisol, much like GSH and Vitamin C work together, and really cannot be separated. Ergo, my elevated blood sugar may have as much to do with a Thyroid problem, as the glucocortocoid effect - especially since medicine tends to ignore and discount suboptimal thyroid.

Hopefully I can get a prescription for natural amour thyroid, and will report here the effect on my blood sugar and requirement for cortisol.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#65  Post by Johnwen » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:45 am

I see where you stopped reading after this one were you took that .75Mg. Out of context

In nondiabetic patients with primary renal
disease treated with prednisolone 0.75 mg/
kg/day, 42% were found to have 2-hour
post-lunch plasma glucose concentrations
higher than 200 mg/dL but normal fasting
glucose levels.


You can plainly see it’s used as an example showing what the glucose levels are in a non-diabetic patient taking that dosage and how it effects their levels. It is not a figure they used as a base as you implied! In fact there are studies showing where 2Ug of cortisol effects glucose levels (That’s 2 ten thousands of a gram, .0002gram)

As you can plainly see in the paragraph that follows it shows the ODDs of getting diabetes even at a 1Mg. Dose is 1.77 to 1 in favor of getting diabetes.
Nice try!!!

In a case-control study, the odds ratio of
starting an oral hypoglycemic agent or
insulin was 1.77 for patients receiving a
hydrocortisone-equivalent dose of 1 to 39
mg/day, 3.02 for 40 to 79 mg/day, 5.82 for
80 to 119 mg/day, and 10.34 for 120 mg/
day or more.
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#66  Post by Johnwen » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:46 pm

I just had to write this when I read your post about now your going to start taking Armour for your thyroid?????

1.
There was once two hunters that decided the time of year was right for hunting. So they first went out an walked the area checking out different terrain, tracks and possible blind spots where they could get a shot at their targets marking all these aspects on a map. They then go back, figure a day that would be good. They check the weather forecast and clean their guns. When their planned date comes about, they load their stands, weapons, ammunition and lunch’s and drink and head out to their site.
2.
Across town about 11:30pm, two guys are sitting around having a couple of beers and one says to the other, “Lets go hunting!” So they grab their rifles and a few rounds a couple of bottles and head out the door. They find a empty area and jump out, one going one way and the other another way. When they get deep in the brush they start firing which ever way their facing.
Questions:
1. Which one’s do you think has a better chance of bagging their prey?
2. Which one’s do you think has a better chance of making it home?

This is the same thing as saying I Think I need this because a book said, “It could be this?” So without testing or knowing what the real problem is or what the consequences could be they grab a pill and hope they hit the target. Then wait for miracles to happen and blame something else when it don’t work. I would have to ask, “Do you know these levels??” TSH, fT3, rT3, T3, T4, Selenium, Calcitonin, Serum Calcium, Anion gap, Cortisol??
If you don’t then it would be a real good idea not to start anything that would affect them adversely. If you think a temp. reading is going to give you all the answers I have one thing to say. “It’s your life and health your betting!” Good luck with that!
CORTISOL??? Yes it does affect the thyroid and can throw your temperature all over the place also!!!

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/apr ... geing.html
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#67  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:43 pm

Johnwen wrote:I just had to write this when I read your post about now your going to start taking Armour for your thyroid?????


This is the same thing as saying I Think I need this because a book said, “It could be this?” So without testing or knowing what the real problem is or what the consequences could be they grab a pill and hope they hit the target. Then wait for miracles to happen and blame something else when it don’t work. I would have to ask, “Do you know these levels??” TSH, fT3, rT3, T3, T4, Selenium, Calcitonin, Serum Calcium, Anion gap, Cortisol??
If you don’t then it would be a real good idea not to start anything that would affect them adversely. If you think a temp. reading is going to give you all the answers I have one thing to say. “It’s your life and health your betting!” Good luck with that!
CORTISOL??? Yes it does affect the thyroid and can throw your temperature all over the place also!!!

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/apr ... geing.html


First of all, there are books, and there are BOOKS.

I've read a lot, but two stand books stand out (and Pauling's of course). Until the Jefferies book, which like Pauling. cuts through all the chaffe, is read, I don't think anyone can put together everything in the medical literature about cortisol. And while some of the problem is understandable, it isn't all by accident. Jefferies was a giant and the book is a landmark.

And this "lost knowledge" could benefit the lives of millions of people!!! (Now after reading it, you may have a different opinion than mine and I would respect that. But I think to argue without reading is a pointless exercise, for both of us.. I feel every day what cortisol does. I have felt what is is like when the body makes no cortisol - which of course is rare.) And I know that in the case of one of my alt. docs, reading SAFE USES OF CORTISOL (and he is busy!!!) completely turned his attitude (similar to yours) around about cortisol. He now prescribes hydro cortisone in the range recommended in the book. Thus the topic of discussion here, because I am trying to understand the "other side." It seems cut and dried after reading Jefferies.

As far as thyroid - I know nothing, nothing... I see nothing, however, this SOLVED book also is a collection of an enormous amount of knowledge. Apparently the author is once-removed from the giant (a Dr. Barnes who pioneered natural thyroid) but he was able to practice what he was taught, and the cases remind me of the cases in Jefferies book. Almost identical benefits. Why? Could there be a close connection between the two glands? While it seems unlikely that cortisol output could effect thyroid - except in the case of inflammation of the thyroid - my feeling after reading both books is that it is more likely the thyroid has an effect on adrenal function. This might explain why doctors who are doing this, giving small amounts of natural thyroid, are seeing the same benefits as reported by Jefferies. (And this isn't the first book I have read on the subject. My first was David Brownstein's NATURAL HORMONES, 3rd Edition, which basically describes the same thing from his clinical practice.)

And I think my ignorance benefits me to a great extent.

I don't expect you to "buy" it, as it goes against medical dogma (and there must be something doctors are being taught that is valid, right? Big Pharma couldn't have influenced everything in medical education, could it have? )

If the objective is to improve the lives of ordinary people, these two natural hormones, (which Big Pharma has no interest in for obvious reasons), are potentially invaluable, at least that is my gut feeling. (Time will tell) This idea fits right into Paulings "orthomolecular" concept, and yes, pushing on one side of the bag, probably makes it push out 3 other places. But these are natural, and non-toxic substances if given in the correct dosage, there is a ton of clinical experience (thank to these books we know!), and proper dosages are apparently not taught to MDs who think they know it all. The simple idea is to replenish what the glands ought to be making, or made in one's youth.

And present company excepted, M.Ds seem to have no expertise in health! They are experts in sickness (and the drugs that treat sickness.) Yet people go to their doctors to become healthy!

I couldn't take 3 mg - back up to 4 mg, feel almost normal and my blood sugar this a.m. was 175 mg/dl.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#68  Post by randian » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:07 pm

ofonorow wrote:
Johnwen wrote:Why? Could there be a close connection between the two glands? While it seems unlikely that cortisol output could effect thyroid

The reverse is true, though. Over the long term, untreated hypothyroid usually results in adrenal insuffiency. The early morning T3 rampup done by the thyroid "powers" the early morning cortisol rampup done by the adrenals. The adrenals can produce for years without sufficient T3, but eventually they start shutting down. I know the medical profession hates the term "adrenal fatigue", but that's basically what it is.

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#69  Post by Johnwen » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:04 am

randian wrote:
ofonorow wrote:
Johnwen wrote:Why? Could there be a close connection between the two glands? While it seems unlikely that cortisol output could effect thyroid

Randian:
Where did you find this quote I can't find anything that I wrote that ressembles this??
Nor does it sound like something I wrote unless it was taken out of context of something that would go on to say about something as defiency of cortisol or something along that line.
If you read the link "the one on my prior post" it shows just the opposite, cortisol has a direct effect on the thyroid function!!!

Heres the link again.
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/apr ... geing.html
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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#70  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:25 am

Sorry johnwen - that was my quote (not yours). I am tempted to simply fix it and delete the last post, but wanted you to see this first.

And from what randian says, adrenal function and thyroid cannot easily be separated, but that definition of "adrenal insufficiency" as low thyroid is vely interesting.

So, I will be able to investigate this in my own case. I now need 4 mg cortisol (165 fasting blood sugar this a.m. - but I also started Lypo-GSH...) If after taking thyroid (I understand it can take months to feel any positive effect) my requirement for cortisol drops, I will be easily able to determine that.

If I can stop my cortisol (yea!) and not risk another ER visit, then I will be a happy camper - unless thyroid real dose cause hair loss!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#71  Post by randian » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:19 pm

ofonorow wrote:And from what randian says, adrenal function and thyroid cannot easily be separated, but that definition of "adrenal insufficiency" as low thyroid is vely interesting.

I'm only saying that hypothyroid can be a cause of adrenal insufficiency. Naturally, there can be other causes.

randian

Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#72  Post by randian » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:21 pm

Johnwen wrote:Where did you find this quote I can't find anything that I wrote that ressembles this??

Like Owen said, it's a screwup in the quoting. Sorry about that.

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#73  Post by Johnwen » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:54 pm

NBT Randian.
Here’s a quote from that posting kind of clears up adrenal inefficiency and thyroid.

The adrenals were keeping pace with the holiday stressors and then they collapse because they’re exhausted. That’s a very common pattern. It’s no different with other stressors like exams or war. Most of us can remember how we made it through the stress of exams only to get sick shortly thereafter. Adequate levels of cortisol are necessary to acutely activate the immune system when we are exposed to viruses and when the adrenals are just too tired to make any more cortisol we are vulnerable to viral infections.

Stress is what both high and low cortisol have in common. Stress hits the adrenals and in response they either collapse in fatigue and do not produce enough stress hormones, resulting in a functional thyroid deficiency, or they can go in the other direction where they’re pouring out cortisol and it’s causing overall hormone resistance, including thyroid resistance. Either way, low or high cortisol, and thyroid hormones become inefficient.


This is the key here “Either way, low or high cortisol, and thyroid hormones become inefficient.”
With insulin, when cortisol is high insulin is blunted and sugars rise when cortisol is low, insulin is effective and sugar levels drop.
With thyroid hormones it’s a either, or situation so if the adrenals are not producing sufficient cortisol the thyroid hormones being produced are not going to do their job because the cells receptors are not open to accept them. The same when the levels of cortisol are high it shuts the receptors down and the thyroid hormones are ineffective. Supplementing Thyroid hormones isn’t going to do much good either Their not going to go where they need to go in these situation’s.
This is the reason most endo’s recommend later morning dosing with at least 20 minute space from food or other drugs or supp.s . However the run of the mill script for levothyroxine (synthroid) has a delay factor built into the pill so there is a delay there also.
So you are now going to be taking a thyroid supplement and have not even had the min. TSH test done???? Did I get that right???
By the way forget your hair and watch your eyebrows!!!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#74  Post by randian » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:57 pm

Johnwen wrote:This is the key here “Either way, low or high cortisol, and thyroid hormones become inefficient.”

You'll notice that standard tests (TSH, Free T3/T4) fail under those conditions. You're functionally hypothyroid, but have plenty of measurable circulating hormone. It's rather like trying to diagnose diabetes by measuring insulin rather than glucose. You'd miss a lot of cases that way (the Type 2s). Your problem then becomes convincing your endocrinologist to ignore the test and concentrate on your symptoms. That is notoriously difficult.

Lots of endos are dangerously ignorant or lazy when it comes to hypothyroid. They'll just do a TSH test and proclaim you healthy if it's in range. Never mind that to get to a real diagnosis you need 24-hour saliva cortisol to detect the problems you note, antibodies to detect Hashimoto's or Grave's, iron & B12 panels (hypothyroid often causes low stomach acid, which means you can't properly absorb those nutrients from your diet), etc.

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Re: Shortness of breath - New Cortisol Discussion

Post Number:#75  Post by Johnwen » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:21 am

This is one of the reasons I took such an interest in endo. I was seeing too many people with heart problems, that really were not true heart problems but the effects of Hormone imbalances and if left unchecked could have led to some serious problems. I would have to say it’s not ignorance or laziness it’s more “Money motivated.” With the expense of medicine today and to see a clear profit a doc has to see at least 4 patients per hour. That’s 15 minutes per patient. Which breaks down to about 7 minutes talking to the patient and 13 minutes doing write ups and other paper work. After listening to the main complaints you now have about 3 minutes to make a diagnoses and plan a course of treatment. Example: Patient, “I feel tired all the time.” Doc checks blood work TSH 2.8 currently on .150 Levo. Chest and lungs sound clear bp a little low. No problem kick Levo. Up to .175 See you in 6 months. DONE.
More Money!!! Next.
Here’s a person that spent 16-18 years learning how to do this! Most endos would like to dig deeper because it is a complex system and to put a finger on the real problem would take a considerable amount of testing and time. Which most insurance companies just won’t pay for. So you see the paradox he’s faced with. Most go with what worked on others as a base and move on.
So to say ignorance or lazy. I don’t think so but like anybody else there trying to make a living but the system has their hands tied and they just deal with it as best they can.
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