Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo reading?

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Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo reading?

Post Number:#1  Post by exitium » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:56 pm

Im just curious, had some basic labs done a couple weeks ago. Non fasted glucose was high. I dont remember exactly but based on timing of my appt there is a very good chance I had 2-4 grams of ascorbate within an hour of my blood draw. Would this have any bearing on my blood glucose?

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#2  Post by FishermansWife » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:25 pm

I read somewhere that vitamin c raises blood glucose levels. I researched this before starting vitamin c because I WAS hypoglycemic at the time.
My 5 year old Kota, "I know what vitamin c does, it hugs your heart."

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#3  Post by jimmylesante » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:19 pm

Hi Exitium
I believe the answer is yes it will show you have a raise in your glucose levels as the Vit C is read as glucose- this thread i believe is in depth.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10603
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:41 pm

exitium wrote:Im just curious, had some basic labs done a couple weeks ago. Non fasted glucose was high. I dont remember exactly but based on timing of my appt there is a very good chance I had 2-4 grams of ascorbate within an hour of my blood draw. Would this have any bearing on my blood glucose?


The answer is no.

However, did you just have a meal, or when was the last meal? Do you remember the numbers?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#5  Post by exitium » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:53 pm

ofonorow wrote:
exitium wrote:Im just curious, had some basic labs done a couple weeks ago. Non fasted glucose was high. I dont remember exactly but based on timing of my appt there is a very good chance I had 2-4 grams of ascorbate within an hour of my blood draw. Would this have any bearing on my blood glucose?


The answer is no.

However, did you just have a meal, or when was the last meal? Do you remember the numbers?


Yes, I had eating about 90 minutes before.

Werent you trying to do some testing with a glucose meter to contrast/compare oral VC compared to lipo VC? If a dose of VC was causing glucose meter to register higher glucose then wouldnt that be the same?

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:44 pm

Yes, but the increase was after ingesting about 4-5 grams at once, and peaked around minute 20. After an hour, the numbers were almost back to the starting point. And different vitamin Cs peaked at different values, which weren't all that high (compared with intravenous vitamin C).

Much stronger (and longer) effect by eating (real glucose).
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#7  Post by sps2010 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:47 pm

Owen,

In some older threads, you reported an experiments on measuring plasma Vit C levels, after digesting Lypo C packets using a freestyle lite blood glucose monitor. If I remember correctly, your experiment did not show any increase in the reading after digesting 5 packs, even showed a drop of 60 points from base line.

Here is my experiment. Recently, I am taking 5 packets of Livon Lypo C twice a day and about 24 g of L-Ascorbic acid in four doses (why ? , that is another thread). In the morning session, I take 5 Lypo and 5.5 g of Ultra C. My measurements using the freestyle lite, before and after, showed only a diff of 10 point. However, later in the day when I took 5.5 g of Ultra C alone I got a spike of ~ 40 points.

Then I got hold of an NIH study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725640/), which suggests that this method is not suitable for plasma concentrations below 50 mg/dL.

Any thoughts ?

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:19 am

Assume I am old and dense. Do you have a link to the thread with your experiments/data?

Thanks for that pubmed study which "justifies" our like experiment. Here is the link to our crude measurements topic: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10603

I never fully understood why the Lypo-C blood measurements failed to show vitamin C (as they did after the UltraFINE ingestion) An expert I consulted said that the encapsulating liposome should not effect the glucose meter, it should be able to read the C encapsulated or not.

Also these measurements are really only valid or meaningful after fasting - when waking up in the a.m., and you need to take a couple of baseline readings, say after drinking a glass of water, etc. before starting. But if you can do this, I would really appreciate other readings of Lypo-C (and I may do some readings of our new China-FREE Quali-C liposomal.)
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#9  Post by Johnwen » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:31 am

An expert I consulted said that the encapsulating liposome should not effect the glucose meter, it should be able to read the C encapsulated or not.


I still trying to wrap my brain around this one????

Ok here’s an example:
I have here a steel 55 gallon drum full of a liquid can you tell me if the liquid is thick or thin and what color it is???
Of course you can’t!!

Same scene plays out when you try to read a glucose like substance that’s encapsulated in it a organic material. Why? Because it’s encapsulated! Ie. Within a vehicle of a different structure.

Back to basic’s! Cells eat what? The American Diet! FAT and Sugar.
Vitamin C resembles what? Sugar, Glucose and as such is transported into the cells in a very similar manner. What happens when the cells had their fill of sugar they reject IT and look for the next part of their meal, FAT! Liposome’s look very much like what? Lipids, Fat that is encapsulated, since fat don’t do so good in water (Remember Oil and Water analogy? They don‘t mix and separate!) Now let’s take some sugar like substance and put a jacket on it. Then present it to the cells and what happens? Yep they take it in thinking it’s FAT and surprise they get a hit of V-C.
Another basic related item is, Cells use Sugar for energy and Fat for structure. When a cell is sick or in a disarray it first tries to maintain it’s structure. It does so by intake of Fat and will reject sugar. We know V-C is a anti-oxidant as such when it gets in a ailing cell it goes to work rearranging the chemical structure within the cell or allows it to die and get replaced with a healthy off spring by not allowing it’s defect’s to be spread.

This is the purpose of Liposomal technology. However since the encapsulation process is not perfect there will be some residual V-C that maybe read but it will be no where near the levels if taken straight up!
So to say you can read a liposome molecule with a sugar meter still eludes me!

Is Lichen Sugar??? No! It’s a Fungus, but to the body it looks cholesterol because it’s very similar in structure to cholesterol! What is cholesterol? Fat encapsulated in a lipid jacket. Perhaps looking at what kind of cholesterol it rises would give a better idea if it’s in the blood stream an available to do it’s job!!
Think the liver will degrade or break it down? think again! Remember oral intake of cholesterol from food? Well those that are the similar as human cholesterol’s are just passed on through and lichen is one of them! Unless your taking Ezetimibe!
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research!

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#10  Post by sps2010 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:43 pm

I did not do a details experiment, as you did, just a couple readings. they are below:

7:00 AM 16 oz of water.
7:15 AM: base line 96 mg/mL
7:20 AM; 5 packs of Livon Lypo + 5.5 g of Ultra C
7:35 AM: Reading: 106 mg/mL
7:50 AM : Reading: 108 mg/mL

2:00 PM : baseline 105 mg/mL
2:05: PM 5.5 g Ultra C
2:20: reading: 146 mg/mL

Meter used: Freestyle lite.

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:02 pm

Yes those readings do indeed seem strange. (I supposed I need to start pricking my fingers again. See if this is repeatable.)

Question: Why would the blood reading be so much higher for ultraFINE C alone - with out PLC (phospholipid choline)?

Time for a brainstorm about what may be going on before I shared my expert's comments with Johnwen (The expert actually worked on glucose meters, in a previous life.)

Guess #1 Perhaps when you take the ultra with the Livon (PLC) it gets emulsified something like the aloe/kiwi gel? Leading to.. #2

Guess #2 Perhaps Liposomal/PLC is immediately taken up by the liver, and the vitamin C is released more slowly out of the liver over time?

Guess #3 My expert is wrong and the nano sized bubbles can shield their contents from the electric shock created by the glucose measurement?

Now I'll look for his comments.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:31 pm

Here is the some private email of my discussion with Emek Blair regarding our glucose measurements lf Lypo C (note his qualifications at the end).

Emek Blair wrote:Dear Owen,


Is the pH of both solutions identical? I’m assuming that the LivOnLabs product is at a pH of around 7 while ours is a little acidic; electrochemical sensors such as glucose meters need to be calibrated for each pH. So you would need to adjust the pH of the solution to get your zero reading first and then use another solution to add our liposomes to.


I hope this helps.


Best regards,

Emek

Owen,

The reading you are getting may be completely due to the pH change that occurs when adding our liposomes. The glucose meter is and electrochemical meter that is “dumb.” It can’t tell if the electrochemical potential at its surface is altered due to glucose or pH or other components in the formula such as flavor. All that the glucose meter knows is that the potential at its electrode surface has changed (please see schematic below). These electrodes are designed to only work at a neutral pH.



Neutral pH

Electrode surface ______________________

Solution charge +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-



Acidic pH

Electrode surface ______________________

Solution charge +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--



Best regards,

Emek

Owen,


If you add baking soda then the ionic strength of the solution will go up which will cause other issues.

If you look up “Emek Blair” in google scholar you will see that I am an expert in enzyme electrochemistry especially using lipid systems on electrodes (the basis for the glucose meters) and have written book chapters, peer reviewed papers, and have received several awards for my work in that field.

This method of measurement needs to be controlled in several ways in order to get this experiment to work properly (pH, temperature, oxygen level, electrode area, and salt content….blood is very consistent in this way). This is due to the fact that as the pH changes, ionic strength changes, how the lipid will alter how the enzymes will interact with the electrode (this will actually enhance the signal…please see one of my papers http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja0488333 as one of many examples of this situation). In this paper I used structured lipids to dramatically enhance the communication between the enzymes and the electrode…this is another potential reason that you are getting such a signal.

Best regards,

Emek

Owen,


Now that I’m really thinking about this… There are probably about 10,000+ papers showing that structured lipids will enhance a signal at an electrode. Hence, I am more likely to support a statement that the glucose meter will read vitamin c more completely if structured lipids are used.


Please see figure 5 at http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf. Without the structured lipids (in this paper it is a film) the enzymes are not communicating as well with the electrode. In figure 5, (a) is the blank, (b) is enzyme with structured lipids and (c) is enzyme without lipids. It is obvious that the enzyme without the structured lipid does not react as well.


Best regards,

Emek







We have two separate clinical studies showing the same thing, the blood levels of vitamin c are higher using our liposomes (one performed by Ph.D. clinical chemist as a paid consultant and the other by two professors at the University of Colorado as research partners). Our project at CSU goes far beyond just a bioavailability and is about basic scientific research.



Best regards,

Emek

Dear Owen,



Not to linger on this point but Figure 1 shows that their liposomes have the same effect on vitamin c blood levels as regular powdered vitamin c. As they show the blood level later on being increased (not liposomal vs powder) but in general. We reach about 350 uM/L using 5 grams of our liposomal vitamin c. They reached 400 uM/L using 20 g liposomal + 20 g powdered.



Best regards,

Emek


If all this gives johnwen or anyone some idea what is going on - why we cannot measure Lypo-C levels in the blood (as vitamin C) I am all ears :)
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#13  Post by sps2010 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:22 pm

Additional Info:

Hydration: In every Vit C dose (lipo or Ultra C) I take at least 16 oz of water. If we assume that in the morning we are a little dehydrated, 15 min after taking 16 oz of water (no vit C), may not be getting me fully hydrated. Where as, at 2 PM I have numerous sources of liquid and, probably a bit more hydrated (?). So the base-line may be off a little.

Ph: Yes, that makes sense to me. Lipo being neutral (I presume) and the 2 PM Ultra C intake totally acidic, can throw off balance the meter's electrode response, specially when we are comparing the two.

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#14  Post by Johnwen » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:06 pm

OWEN said: phospholipid choline


Don’t you mean Phosphatidylcholine (PC) because there is no such thing with the name you gave it. Phosphatidylcholine is the capsule Liv-on labs uses in there products. There is Phosphosphingolipids which PC is grouped with.
Along with Sphingomyelin which I posted a previous writing on about it’s effects on the production of acid sphingomyelinase and it’ effects on Lipid raft production and cell apoptosis.

Perhaps this is where some of the confusion over what does what here.
If you search PC out you get a better picture of what’s going on here!
Here’s a link to get you started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylcholine

In SPS2010 post; The differences posted after Lipo and Regular V-C go right along with Liv-On says their total encapsulation percentages are. They advertise 99% at origin. However the dehydration and handling and normal digestive process could account for the 8% additional residual’s that would be deposited in serum. He had 96 mg/dl start 5grams lypo and then registered 108 which would mean 9.3% serum and 90.7% encapsulated not readable!

With regular C 5.5 Grams he saw a 105 go to 146 or a 40.3% increase in serum levels and a 60.7% loss which even Pauling commented on about loss due to the digestive process and stores in the kidney’s being replenished.

Mr Blair gives a good presentation on how a glucose meter operates and the pharmacokinetics of a lypo product but my interest’s go more towards the phamacodynamics of it.
I was also wondering if he ever explored Phosphatidylcholine transfer protein (PCTP) which increases with the levels of Phosphatidylcholine and it’s effect on glucose metabolism. Which when levels of are increased cause a higher amount of fat to be utilized thus keeping the cells busy with fat metabolism and rejecting glucose thusly raising serum levels which elevate these meter readings followed by a severe drop in readings as the liver rejects intake of insulin causing a slowing of fat metabolism in favor of glucose mix??? Why does it reject insulin ? It has enough Fat to deal with already! See Chart Here!

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11538

This all could account for what they were attributing as an electron change which requires a catalyst for it to achieve.

My thoughts are to do a table top test and evaluate what the free percentage of V-C is in Lypo. By taking a package of Lypo and mixing it in about 112 mL or a little under 4 oz. of distilled water which is 1dL let it steep for about 2 or 3 minutes and read the Free glucose reading. Distilled water would be a must! Since calcium, sodium and potassium are catalyst for PC. I’d do it but I don’t use Lypo any Lypo users want to try this and let us know??
Only loss is the test strip and a little time! You can drink the mix after the test!!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:45 am

Yes Phosphatidylcholine (PC). (Thank you johnwen, sorry I was too lazy to look up the spelling).

As far as the above procedure johnwen provided, I will try it. (Actually I think we already did - and didn't measure anything until after freezing/thawing - leading to a mixed discussion with Emek. How to test Encapsulation, rather than testing vitamin C levels in the blood.)

I agree we should double check that the meter can measure the encapsulated C before doing more blood testing.

From memory, (sorry again for being lazy), when it didn't work before - until we froze and thawed the Lypo, Dr. Blair blamed the viscosity of the solution. But then again we may have been discussing tests that could be done in water to measure encapsulation?

emek wrote:-(Empirical's) vitamin c test will break apart the liposome and measure the vitamin c encapsulated and not encapsulated. We have tested this using a technique called standard addition. The freezing test also does something a little different; when you initially stir in the liv on labs product, the lipids don’t allow the vitamin c to escape (this is due to viscosity) but during a freeze thaw cycle the whole solution goes through a phase change and allows the vitamin c to dissolve in the water and be measured.



(He does recommend water dilution and sonification as a means of breaking up liposomes. Cannot do that in the blood though.)

emek wrote:
Owen,

The easiest way to break apart the liposomes is to dilute the volume dramatically and sonicate for 30 minutes. We already have stability data for the vitamin c in our liposomes. Our first round showed 1.2% depletion in 18 months using accelerated testing (45 C).

Best regards,

.
.
.

p.s. The sonication and large dilution together will destroy the liposomes. Sonication for the homemade “liposomes” does something a little different.



Getting back to the the two blood measurements reported in this post.

5 Grams Lypo + 5 Grams UltraFINE did not raise detectable blood concentrations in 15 minutes,
but
5 Grams UltraFINE by itself did later in the day.

Even if the meter was shielded by the PLC in the Lypo in a.m., that does not necessarily explain why the 5 Grams of UltraFINE taken with it wasn't measured at all in the first measurement.

As somebody famous once said (on his heart video!) What do we know? Thanks to the Hickey/Roberts Ridiculous Allowance (lulu.com/ascorbate) we learned that some amount of ascorbic acid (but not its salts) can pass through the stomach lining and enter the blood stream without going through the intestines - iif the stomach acid is natural (low enough pH). Evidence. Draining sinuses can be stopped in as little as 5 minutes in some people after taking only 500 mg ascorbic acid. There isn't enough time for the vitamin to enter the blood stream any other way.

That apparently didn't happen in this case. (5g Lypo + 5 g UltraFine)

Thanks to one of Dr. Levy's books, I learned that carbohydrates are processed in the stomach for about 2 hours, but fats take as long as 6 hours digesting before they leave the stomach. (Proteins about 4 hours.) This knowledge has helped me to understand why GERD usually happens 6 hours after a large meal.. Right after stomach has drained the last part of the meal.

So normal vitamin C would be in the carbohydrate range (the salts, e.g. sodium ascorbate) and might start working (enter the blood stream) from 15 minutes to 2 hours after ingestion, except for the passage of ascorbic-acid only through the stomach wall already discussed.

Phosphatidylcholine (PLC) in the liposomal products is a lipid and viscous. So the time to pass through the stomach is extended (and these products usually or mostly contain sodium ascorbate encapsulated). I need to restudy some data from Hickey and Empirical to see how long it took for maximum blood levels to be measured, but I don't think it was 15 minutes (like ascorbic acid).


Added I am looking at confidential empirical slides showing pharmacokentics of Empirical's liposomes with a comparison to Hickey/Roberts trial of Livon).

The answer is the peak vitamin C level in the blood is 2-3 hours after ingestion of the liposomes.



This time frame matches Livon Lypo-C - however, the Livon units or mmoles/l where the Empirical measures are mg/dl. The livon only seemed to double the concentration and was not that much different than powder. Empirical either doubled or tripled vitamin C concentrations in two hours, (depends on what the zero means). The Emek/Empirical liposomes were still elevated after 10 hours.


... human trials...

 Liposomal Measurement
 One week wash out period (control baseline)
 Measure Vitamin C serum levels after fasting for 10 hours
 Single 5 g Vitamin C dose as sodium ascorbate (liposomal)
 Track ascorbate levels in blood serum for 10 hours after dose




Other than a few exceptions - such as Ralph Lotz's dental work pain going away on the third squirt of the liposomal into his mouth (indicating the liposomes passed into or through the mucous membranes of his mouth) and my wife noticing that her night time allergies would diminish in 5 minutes after taking one packet of Lypo-C (indicating maybe the same thing? In this case we were driving and she used no water - just put the packet into her mouth.) Otherwise, the liposomal anecdotes/reports, while amazing, are after a longer period of time.

The 22 UK testimonials (Children's Charity) of Emek's liposomes encapsulating Quali-C happened generally in hours, not minutes after taking the product. Here is the quote.


We have 22 testimonies of curing/healing various illnesses within 4-8 hours. Illnesses such as tonsillitis, viral sore throat, coughs, colds, uvulitis, lowering type 2 diabetes blood sugar count etc etc.


Long way to get to the fact that our finger pricking tests may have to last up to at least 2 hours before any of the liposomal vitamin C can be measured in the blood. So back to Johnwen's test to see whether we can use the meter to even measure the C in liposomes in water.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


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