Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo reading?

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Johnwen
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#46  Post by Johnwen » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:58 am

AAAH??? What was that??
I’m still trying to figure out what that was suppose to say/prove???
Yep there’s lipids in the blood doesn’t mean they came from an external source.

Anyway if you want to learn about how liposome’s work here’s about 15 minutes of 2 videos, that will do just that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 4SP8Tw3htE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGz-qDE3Go4

Then find out about micelle’s to get an idea how this works!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boRRoAwjyjI


What are Blair-process spheres in regards to liposome’s ?

To my knowledge the Blair process is the application of porosity into cast iron to add strength to the structure to make up for reduced tensile strength of the casting. Like when the iron is made from recycled materials. I learned about this when I worked for GM during the summer month’s when going to college in the early 70‘s. They were experimenting with this in sintered precision castings to save on material, don’t know if they ever made it work for them.

So kindly explain or link it. So I know what it is and how it’s suppose to work.

Still working on my project had to hand draw the picture’s then redo them on the computer. Can’t take out the books or copy anything out of the books in our reference library. Something to do with copyright, they don’t want the responsibility. So all we can do is find what we need and make hand written notes and drawings. So far they look pretty good. Get them over to photo bucket and add them to the text. I already got the written part done, so were close. It’s kind of long!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#47  Post by Johnwen » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:56 am

Here’s the results of my PITA (Pain In The ---) Project!! Remember Don’t crucify me I’m Just the messenger! If and when this publication reaches public availability I’ll link or name it but for the price I’m seeing, probably won’t be on everyone’s must have list. Like “Practicing medicine without a License!”

One of the most challenging aspects in liposome application is the loading of the vesicles and has been the bases of most of the research. The one that has the most success has been ultrasound. Which is basically sound waves far exceeding the normal hearing range of human ears, in water. The strength of the waves and the frequencies of the waves have a lot of effects on their abilities to perform different tasks.
In liposome applications it is common knowledge that preparation and formation of the liposome prior to being sonically processed is one of the key’s to successful encapsulation. This process of producing liposome’s involves the use of solvents, wetting and dehydrating the molecules so it can be assembled and forming of the inner and outer core.
In this presentation this process has already been completed and what is known as a ECL (empty core liposome) These vesicles are then placed in a media and the process of loading through ultrasound is what is explained.

Control of the amount of frequency, power and time factor has such varied opinion’s and research result’s that it can be mind spinning. What the latest findings are that, although excess power and time can completely destroy the liposome altering these factors can have other results. Here’s some examples of the type of damage that can be done by improper ultrasound application.

Image

Image


The general understanding up to this has been that the drug or whatever is driven thru the bilayer into the inner part of the liposome. This is the theory in the pressure application extrusion encapsulation which has proven out. Although in certain type’s of chemical formulations it would not be possible and change the characteristics or destroy it completely. So ultrasound encapsulation has been the standard in most researches. Although some have continued saying that the ultrasound is driving the cargo into the capsule. This process is possible through the use of surrogate molecules but is a carefully controlled method and most carry patents.
However now in standard controlled ultrasound application’s what their seeing now that is not what’s happening. My guess would be because of better visualization of nano particles.

What they found out is that in a controlled setting they actually are splitting the liposome capsule. Laying the capsule open, sending it back to a bilayer sheet and removal of the ultrasound it will spring back to it’s original form, causing the surrounding media to become encapsulated in the core.
This is the latest finding in 2014 and is published in a book costing well over $300 dollars which I don’t believe will hit the top ten any time soon!

Here’s their presentation of this process!

Image

LUV stands for Large unilamellar vesicle. SUV= Small unilamellar vesicle.
Which is what PC liposome composition is. A unilamellar vesicle!

They also go on to explain that using limited preparation of the liposome and a Non commercial or low power, low frequency ultrasound and applying it for an extended time period has some different effects on the production of a capsule and the resulting end product is a different structure all together. This they note is the process that occurs when using non commercial low power cleaner type ultrasounds making attempts to make and encapsulate a liposome.

This type would produce a particle group that would be released in the GI tract and are able to avoid the stomach process. It doesn’t enter the blood stream directly where it can target cells but depends on gut absorption and normal intestinal processing of the drug to reach circulation into the body.
This process open’s the liposome and separate’s it’s bilayer into two different monolayer sheet’s which when they return to their normal shape, form a micelle and a inverse micelle. Micella have the ability of escaping the stomachs acids and continue on thru to the intestines. A Micelle is capable of encapsulating hydrophobic molecules and some hydrophilic molecules. The Inverse Micelle can only encapsulate hydrophilic molecules. So loading them with a water based substance would a have a greater effectiveness in getting it into the system from the intestines faster then a oil based substance due to this difference in acceptance at formation.

It also appears that this process can also be preformed on commercial or lab grade ultrasounds operating on lower powers for extend exposure times. So it appears time is the factor here however at higher powers and longer sonic times, it seems to destroy the liposome completely.
So with all these latest discoveries it appears that although someone may assume they are getting Liposome delivery of whatever and getting the benefit’s of cellular delivery. What their getting is a Micelle mix which has some very different characteristic’s then a true Liposome. Yes! It starts out what is a Liposome but the end product is a different structure all together.
Here’s the pic’s and graphs that show this process.


Image

Image

Image

The term Coalescence in this presentation means!
“The disappearance of the boundary between two particles in contact, followed by changes of shape leading to a reduction of the total surface area.”

This you can see is where the phosolipid molecules heads are pulled together in the layers. The angle and molecular arrangement of the heads on the molecule are what cause the concave and convex formation, eventually leading to a complete circle. In the Bilayer type you would get a Liposome! In a Monolayer type you get either a Micelle or a Inverse Micelle.

Hope this clears up some of the confusion! This helped me understand why there is such misunderstanding as to what does what. Kind of like Apples and Oranges analogy. However in this case were talking about apples that are made out of oranges now that can get to be confusing!!!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#48  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:13 pm

Thanks for this johnwen. Very educational and we will move this to the liposomal section soon.

Emek's process is proprietary so I wouldn't expect him to comment and I of course do not know what the process is. I do know it does not utilize heat, and that they can encapsulate various substances other than vitamin C! And I do know that his liposomal vitamin C product (using Quali-C) has had remarkable and consistently positive results.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#49  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:27 am

question johnwen, given your knowledge, if the problem is passing substances through two membranes (the outer cellular and inner nucleus membrane) what is the solution?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#50  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:07 pm

if the problem is passing substances through two membranes (the outer cellular and inner nucleus membrane) what is the solution?


It’s not a problem it’s just Not How the liposome’s get encapsulated. Here’s a example of how they react.

This is a very basic example of the process of encapsulation.

First you take a base element like PC and place it in a media like pure water or mix. You now have a bunch of molecules floating around in liquid. The proper temperature, proper amount of mechanical force’s applied to the slurry and these individual molecules begin to assemble head to head and form a bilayer sheet or as the English say “they cue up!” when the external forces are removed these sheets start to bend through a process called, “coalescence.” Where there was once a space between the heads of the molecules the space is now being reduced and the sheet start’s to bend and form’s a bilayer sphere. The media that it was floating in! Now during the bending process some of it become’s entrapped in the inner part of the sphere and you have a liposome if you had another substance floating around in it, it will be within the inner area of the sphere, in proportion to what was in the media. Ie; scoops it up.

If you didn’t have another compatible substance in the media you have a liposome that is holding what ever the media was. That however is not the end of the process if you want to load a liposome. By processing these liposome’s, like with a solvent bath to remove fatty components or dehydrating or a combination of process’s you have a liposome structure that will be prepared and attracted to what your trying to load it with. At this point it would be exposed to a media that contains what you want to place inside of it. Then if using ultrasound it will split the liposome open in the media once again forming a sheet. This is done by forcibly, through sonic waves adding space between the heads of the molecules which cause the sphere to open and flatten. Then with removal of the force would cause the sheet to return to it’s sphere shape entrapping what ever was in the media mix.

Remember this is just a brief outline of what is happening using ultrasound and not the details of these process and external forces used to accomplish this. Those two You tubes in the above link go into a lot more detail of how this is accomplished and the variants that can change the liposome’s characteristics. However they don’t go into the damages that can be done to the liposome by improper external forces.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#51  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:58 am

My question is generally, there are at least two membranes for the nutrient or drug to pass through from the blood to reach the nucleus, and one idea is to first make very small nano-spheres containing the nutrient to reach the nucleus, then creating larger nano-spheres encapsulating that smaller nano-spheres. The idea is that the outer layer might be shed on the way through the first membrane - leaving the smaller nano-spheres to merge with the inner membrane.

Coincidentally, the 4th Phase of Water book (could be titled the New Science of Water) may have something to say about all this. Fascinating read.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#52  Post by Johnwen » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:15 am

Your question produced a need for more detail such as.
What type of vesicle your talking about?
The product attempting to be delivered?
The delivery method into the body?
The methods used to produce the liposome?
ETC!

I got a basic idea of what your trying to ask but as you’ll see there’s different ways the cells utilize and digest or break the liposome to release it’s content’s.
My impression is your talking about Multivesicular vesicles that have been modified from unilamellar vesicles but that’s just another question?

So I linked two PDF files that go into details as to how all this comes together in preparation as while as delivery into the cells.
I hope you’ll find your answer here!

http://courses.engr.uky.edu/CME/cme470/ ... i%2008.pdf

http://www.technicaljournalsonline.com/ ... 202012.pdf
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#53  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:26 am

Thank you - on my reading list.

Learning ( from the 4th Phase of Water book by Pollack) that almost all water inside cells is likely ordered (EZ) water with a net negative charge. (I haven't finished but the author promises to explain osmosis using this new view or model of water.)

The same might be true of water inside liposomes. (But where do the positive charges then go - which normally reside just outside the EZ?)

It may turn out that the passage of a liposome through the cellular membrane can be targeted/managed, perhaps with electrical charges, on the order of osmosis.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#54  Post by Johnwen » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:13 am

Since your looking at water based intake into the cells that would narrow it down to Pinocytosis, Which is one of the two common (Note: I said common which means there's other ways!!) intakes of liposome's into cells the other being endocytosis and other's. Here's the Wiki on Pinocytosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinocytosis
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#55  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:18 pm

Returning to the earlier PDFs - thank you - which lead to using liposomes for gene therapy, Ouila! We learn that while "viral vectors" are more efficient (altering the viral DNA so that the modified virus produces the desired DNA, they can (and are) using liposomes for gene therapy; they can bind their payloads to the DNA. They say it is less efficient but doesn't elicit an immune response like the viral-vector gene therapy.

So if you can alter or add a gene that is replicated when the cell replicates - with certain classes of liposomes - they by definition have reached the nucleus.

Makes one ponder fixing the GLUT defect by adding a working GLUT gene via liposomal gene therapy
:D
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#56  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:03 am

Makes one ponder fixing the GLUT defect by adding a working GLUT gene via liposomal gene therapy.


Wow Owen! Are you trying to put the big pharma boy’s out of business??

What your talking about is either lipofection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipofection

http://teachers.sduhsd.net/ahaas/Quest% ... nsMeth.pdf

OR! To get in a little deeper Nucleofection!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleofection

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1698260/

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... 0-10-9.pdf

Of course you need a machine to do this!

http://bric.postech.ac.kr/myboard/view. ... 824&fidx=1


Then you would have to go against the BIG $$$$$$ of Big Pharma.
I believe their thinking the same way you are and trying to devise ways to circumvent this from happening. In fact their latest campaign against supplementing is under way right now. Their putting out all kind of garbage about all vitamins again and trying hard to justify the 60 mg. V-C RDA. By bringing up things like all the damage excess V-C can do. However I’m having a lot of trouble remembering what they are, except that Money Killer,
“Better Health!”

So yes! I believe it’s feasible! However, I believe the chances of it happening are “Slim to Nun!” Slim died last week and the Nun is in the hospital being given all kinds of Big Pharma Drugs! So her chances are Slim also!!!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#57  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:48 pm

Again thanks for the links! (I'm not sure how successful they will be with their new anti-vitamin propaganda campaign, but I have noticed that in the past, after every episode (or during) our vitamin sales increased! The publicity gives us a serious bump!

Here is the youtube from the UK Changing Futures team that discusses both viral and liposomal "vectoring" gene therapy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5FTvB27lE8

A serious goal is immortality - as outlined in the Telemore Timebomb thread (which would definitely be up against the clandestine groups in place who fear world population).
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#58  Post by Johnwen » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:40 pm

I’ve been looking for something that is short and to the point that gives a pretty good understanding of how liposome’s all come’s together. Finally found one that don’t get all techy and get’s straight to the point. On the bottom of the link there’s, “Further Reading.” That gives a good short presentations on the different functions.

http://www.news-medical.net/health/What ... osome.aspx

Then of course we have Liv On Labs presentation of this process.

http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/start. ... ation.html

Then we have the “ONE STOP SHOP!” of everything Liposome except what goes in them but if you want them to put it inside a liposome and certify it they do that too! There located in, Sweet Home Alabama! Their called “Avanti Polar Lipids!”

http://avantilipids.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=371

You want to check if a product is a liposome or emulsion they do that!

http://avantilipids.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=106

You need a extruder to convert a LUV to a SUV they got that too!

http://avantilipids.com/index.php?optio ... ber=610000

You want just pure Phosphatidylcholine all you have to do is know what type you want and they have it along with a head spinning number of other lipid types. They have that TOO!

http://avantilipids.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=131

Search till you drop they have it all! I think everyone will see there’s a lot more then just pouring some Lecithin and V-C in a ultrasound and giving it a spin and think they got a TRUE LIPOSOME. Fact is that’s just the tip of the iceberg!
Happy Holidays to all! Enjoy!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
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