Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo reading?

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#16  Post by Johnwen » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:08 am

Poor Exitium! Really!! The later posts on this topic should be moved over to the lypo section but for now here we are!!

Owen;
On some of these posts about Liposomes. You mention bioavailability taking 2 hours and the liver breaking down liposomes and having higher blood levels or slower delivery and on and on.
Like the commercial where the elder lady puts pictures on the wall of her house and the other lady says “That’s not how this works, That’s not how any of this works!” Is what comes to mind when I read some of these posts.
First, Low bioavailability is one of the advantages of liposome delivery! Why because it delivers it’s contents directly to the cells where it attaches to the cell and as it’s digested into the cell or tissue directly! If serum levels increase it’s because the encapsulation FAILED and released it’s contents prematurely, before it attached to the cells or tissue. Granted there will be some residual elevation in the readings but this is due to failure to make it completely into the vehicle or the vehicle was not proper and dissolved in serum.
The liver does not deal with fresh lipo’s for the same reason cholesterol continues to circulate in the blood. Only when the lipids have been digested or attached to another vehicle does the liver take them back in for processing.
Think LP(a) or HDL!
Anyway here’s some links to get you more familiar with how these work. I hope it helps in your understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome

http://www.pharmacistspharmajournal.org ... ystem.html

I can break this down to an analogy for clarity if you feel you need a little better understanding. Right now I have to run! Let me know??
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#17  Post by ofonorow » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:28 am

Yes, we may split the liposomal part out later.

First to summarize - glucose readings after taking vitamin C with and without Lypo were surprising to say the least. If repeatable/verifiable, it means that, among other things, our "surefire" cold cure WOULD NOT WORK IF SOMEONE ALSO TAKES LYPO AT THE SAME TIME. (Any viscous substance apparently grabs the powdered C taken at the same time, preventing it from going through the stomach lining.)

I think this is an important finding that I will try to verify.

Now the reason we aren't able to measure Liposomal Vitamin C in the blood right away - is apparently because of the slowness of the lipid digestive process. We have 2 measurements - one published (Hickey) and one unpublished (Empirical) that show vitamin C levels don't peak for 2-3 hours after ingestion. Note - these are professional measurements with a centrifuge. They are as accurate as is possible and the encapsulation wouldn't matter - I'll interject more below in johnwen's comments.



Johnwen wrote:
Owen;
On some of these posts about Liposomes. You mention bioavailability taking 2 hours and the liver breaking down liposomes and having higher blood levels or slower delivery and on and on.
Like the commercial where the elder lady puts pictures on the wall of her house and the other lady says “That’s not how this works, That’s not how any of this works!” Is what comes to mind when I read some of these posts.


This (2 hours) was surprising to me (and previously unnoticed in the literature by me) too. I will ask if I can post the unpublished Empirical results, but they are similar to the Lypo-C measurements by Hickey. Accurate readings of serum vitamin C levels rise in roughly a straight line over two hours then stay peaked for another hour or two before gradually dropping off. Empirical's were still elevated over baseline after 10 hours. (So what happens to Dynamic Flow/Kidneys?)

I did not mention the liver, and if you add this to the equation - all bets are off because I cannot see liposomes surviving after passing through the liver "filter." Maybe they can. I was just pointing out that according to the research Dr. Levy found, lipids take 3 times longer to pass through the stomach into the intestines. Presumably PLC liposomes are "digested" the same slower way.


First, Low bioavailability is one of the advantages of liposome delivery! Why because it delivers it’s contents directly to the cells where it attaches to the cell and as it’s digested into the cell or tissue directly!


Yes, we assume this based on efficacy and the lack of bowel tolerance issues. The assumption is that if vitamin C doesn't reach the rectum - it was otherwise absorbed by the body.

The issue here is time to the blood stream. Our Ascorbic Acid measurements showed a peak in 15 minutes. We did not measure anything with Lypo-C - so one explanation (without the Hickey/Emperical studies) might be they are quickly absorbed by cells. But another I suppose is that they make it to the blood, are absorbed by the liver, but the vitamin C is slowly released by liver over 1-5 hours. We are in agreement that more liposomal is likely absorbed or bioavailable than powder. Might take longer.


If serum levels increase it’s because the encapsulation FAILED and released it’s contents prematurely, before it attached to the cells or tissue. Granted there will be some residual elevation in the readings but this is due to failure to make it completely into the vehicle or the vehicle was not proper and dissolved in serum.


Again, serum levels do increase using the best measurement equipment available. And if encapsulation really failed, then why wouldn't dynamic flow come into play as the kidneys begin expelling unencapsulated vitamin C according to its "30 minutes half life?"

Maybe your reference to the liver does explain this "slow release" into the blood stream?


The liver does not deal with fresh lipo’s for the same reason cholesterol continues to circulate in the blood. Only when the lipids have been digested or attached to another vehicle does the liver take them back in for processing.
Think LP(a) or HDL!
Anyway here’s some links to get you more familiar with how these work. I hope it helps in your understanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome

http://www.pharmacistspharmajournal.org ... ystem.html

I can break this down to an analogy for clarity if you feel you need a little better understanding. Right now I have to run! Let me know??


I will look at those links later, but what about individual liver cells? I have seen a few studies showing how liposomes can "target" the liver. What keeps liposomes passing through the liver from merging with individual cell membranes?



The data so far indicates..

A) 2 hours before vitamin C peaks (and with the Hickey data, this was similar to powdered C's curve
B) Empirical's data was about 50% higher and lasted longer in the blood

But you are correct that it is a conundrum that highly bioavailable liposomal would raise blood levels and last longer in the blood.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#18  Post by Johnwen » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:37 am

Here’s one explaination as to why you can see a rise in serum levels!

From WIKI:
These liposomes may be digested while in the macrophage's phagosome, thus releasing its drug. Liposomes can also be decorated with opsonins and ligands to activate endocytosis in other cell types.


Here’s one way on how to decorate a liposome to hit the heart or liver!

http://iris.lib.neu.edu/cgi/viewcontent ... sci_theses



Liposomal absorption is very different from gastro-intestinal absorption. When we eat something, the nutrients are typically broken down in our stomach and intestines with acid, enzymes and bacteria. When the molecules are small enough, they can slip between intestinal cells, and into our blood stream. The liver and other organs then spring into action and re-assemble the more complex molecules, such as enzymes, lipids and hormones.
Liposomes, such as glutathione liposomes, work around this break-down, absorb, then re-assemble protocol. Because on the surface the liposome looks exactly as a human cell and the two will merge, very much like two soap bubbles will merge into one larger one. Liposomes are NOT digested. They are not broken down!


http://glutathione.wellwise.org/how-do-liposomes-work


BTW: Liposomes can stay active in the human body for >40 hours! According to some recent research!

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#19  Post by ofonorow » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:28 pm

The master's thesis was very interesting. I (think) I learned a lot, but it did seem like they said the maximum encapsulation was 30%? (Emek's method is almost 100%).

And there was this sentence:


The possible reasoning proposed by the authors was that since the serum proteins are negatively charged in physiological conditions, they may induce liposome aggregation which may get
entrapped when passing through the liver (18)


I am not sure how much weight to give the first article on liposomal glutathione. The idea of "milky white" liposomes is new, but is it true?

So far, the better theory why liposomes take two hours to be measured carrying vitamin C in the blood, and can last over 10 hours, is that the liver is collecting them. Perhaps then the vitamin is being released slowly from the liver (as if it were being manufactured in liver cells like most animals.)

If something else is going on then the kidneys are not regulating liposomes the same way they regulate ordinary vitamin C.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#20  Post by Johnwen » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:42 pm

Owen said: but it did seem like they said the maximum encapsulation was 30%? (Emek's method is almost 100%).


Apples and Oranges!
Rather confusing statement! In that one (30%) is the amount one particle can take in Ie: 30% of the particles total structure weight or volume. Actually it depends on what your trying to put into the vehicle. Water based, dry, oily, etc. Water based can be more.

The other (almost 100%) is this example: Putting 3 pounds of V-C mix in 10 pounds of Liposome’s and processing them and having little or no V-C left over after their encapsulation process Is a 100% encapsulation. So they had a 30% encapsulation per liposome but the liposome’s took in 100% of the product they placed in it. As you can see without knowing the ratio’s of the base products the accuracy of this claim can be questioned. As said before. Water based products can have a higher, almost a 100% absorption but will not take in a mixed product into the liposomes, that contains higher then 25% (30% is a little high) of a particulate. Because Water and Solid’s go to different parts of the liposome particle.
Hope this clears this up!

In regards to the liver breaking down the liposomes! In my previous post I said New research is finding that some liposomes have been tracked for excess of > 40 hours. The liver doesn’t just breakdown the liposomes, it either just passes them through or they get attached to macrophages and get broken down.

Here you’ll see if you have some 30+ year old liposomes laying around they might just react in the liver and spleen and release their goods in bulk!

Long-circulating liposomes
The fast and efficient elimination of conventional liposomes from the circulation by liver and spleen macrophages has seriously compromised their application for the treatment of the wide range of diseases involving other tissues. The advent of new formulations of liposomes that can persist for prolonged periods of time in the bloodstream led to a revival of interest in liposomal delivery systems at the end of the 1980s. In fact, the long-circulating liposomes opened a realm of new therapeutic opportunities that were up to then unrealistic because of efficient MPS uptake of conventional liposomes. Perhaps the most important key feature of long circulating liposomes is that they are able to extra vasate at body sites where the permeability of the vascular wall is increased. Fortunately, regions of increased capillary permeability include pathological areas such as solid tumors and sites of infection and inflammation.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/105016839/Sem ... g-Delivery

/\ This is a good educational piece and gives a good look at the encapsulation process!

WIKI on Macrophage:
When a monocyte enters damaged tissue through the endothelium of a blood vessel, a process known as the leukocyte extravasation, it undergoes a series of changes to become a macrophage. Monocytes are attracted to a damaged site by chemical substances through chemotaxis, triggered by a range of stimuli including damaged cells, pathogens and cytokines released by macrophages already at the site. At some sites such as the testis, macrophages have been shown to populate the organ through proliferation. Unlike short-lived neutrophils, macrophages survive longer in the body up to a maximum of several months


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrophage
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#21  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:20 am

Not to be distracted :o

Again to summarize what (I think) we have learned from the innocent "my glucose meter isn't measuring liposomal and AA" post that started this.

A) For whatever reasons, liposomal ingested by mouth diluted in water requires 2 to 3 hours before vitamin C blood levels peak. Corollary) Taking liposomal by mouth without water apparently works much faster.

B) We have measured (and the poster verified), that Ascorbic Acid powder by mouth can peak in as little as 15 minutes (but we didn't wait 2 hours to see if there was another "peak").

C) However, it looks like the viscous phospholipids capture any AA powder, preventing rapid absorption into the blood stream (presumably through the stomach lining) when AA and lipo are taken together.

This is all new information (at least to me) and leads to several questions.

1) Why the delay measuring the liposomal C in the blood?

2) Can we even measure liposomal C in the blood between hours 2 and 3 using the glucose (FREESTYLE LITE) meter?

As an aside, Dr. Hickey made the claim in an otherwise wonderful article on Ebola and Vitamin C recently published in the Townsend Letter


Hickey et al wrote:Liposomal vitamin C is NOT more effective than IV for fighting acute infections.


He and I are currently discussing this via email. My plan is to turn the correspondence into a letter to the Townsend Letter editor.

In a nutshell, 48-72 grams of vitamin C can cure a cold at its onset (our surefire cure for the common cold) but after it becomes entrenched, my personal experience is that it requires more than 450 grams to control an established cold (and presumably my tissues are saturated with vitamin C.)

His argument against liposomal is based on reasonableness, i.e., an electron is an electron, so it doesn't seem reasonable that much smaller amount of liposomal is more effective than IV. (Note: Not on any clinical data that he has so far cited.)

So if 48 to 450 grams ascorbic acid is required to "cure" a cold, how much sodium ascorbate IV?

Cathcart's answer might be 100 to 250 grams.

Then we have this from Simon in the UK regarding true liposomal vitamin C.


My wife and I and children have personally experienced the benefits and the curing of numerous coughs and colds. It was I that had the uvulitis. I took 8 spoons at once followed by another 4 spoons 3 hours later, and another 4 spoons 3 hours after that, and the infection literally disappeared! Bear in mind that the uvula had nearly tripled in size and I had called an emergency doctor and was preparing to visit my local hospital A&E(ER).


1 spoon equals 1 gram, so a total of 16 spoons (16 grams of liposomal) cured this acute infection!

This is not an isolated case. It may not be "reasonable" but I doubt a 16 gram IV/C would have had the same effect.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#22  Post by Johnwen » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:25 am

1) Why the delay measuring the liposomal C in the blood?


If you read the above postings that Macrophages break the encapsulation releasing it’s contents to the blood stream before they have a chance to attach to the cells. So, If a person has a high level of macrophages in their system such as from a injury the liposomes will be broken down in higher quantities and blood levels will rise.

Wiki quote:
Macrophages are versatile cells that play many roles. As scavengers, they rid the body of worn-out cells and other debris. Along with dendritic cells, they are foremost among the cells that present antigens, a crucial role in initiating an immune response. As secretory cells, monocytes and macrophages are vital to the regulation of immune responses and the development of inflammation; they produce a wide array of powerful chemical substances (monokines) including enzymes, complement proteins, and regulatory factors such as interleukin-1. At the same time, they carry receptors for lymphokines that allow them to be "activated" into single-minded pursuit of microbes and tumour cells.


The bottom line to this is if the serum levels of V-C increase! A lesser amount of the encapsulated V-C is reaching the cells and is a lesser effective product then it was designed for. The lower the serum levels the better it’s working.

2) Can we even measure liposomal C in the blood between hours 2 and 3 using the glucose (FREESTYLE LITE) meter?


If it’s breaking down before it’s suppose to as above!
Get a cheaper meter you’ll probably have better results!


I agree with Hickey in that they work completely different!!
I-V V-C will produce a flash oxidation at the initiation when it first hits it’s target via it’s electron donation deluge and revert back to it’s anti-oxidant activities as the levels stabilize. Dr. Klenner explains this very clearly in Iv usage against viruses.
Liposomes only go to cells in need of fats! Cells infected by a viral host will be in need of sugars to produce energy so they can replicate. Thus ignoring the lipsomes. You might get a small amount from the monocytes and macrophages at site trying to overpower the virus which attack the liposomes also releasing their contents into the area but not at the levels that would give the same results as an Iv infusion will produce.
Now if their able to build a selective Liposome that targets an infected cell so it can dump it’s contents directly into these cells and be ignored by the immune system, you might have something.
If you study more about liposomes you’ll see there is already target liposomes that have been approved by the FDA for drug delivery systems. As you can imagine all this comes with a hefty price tag so you know who’s behind them. As far as V-C getting this kind of funding, Your dreaming and better wake up! It Isn’t going to happen anytime soon!

BTW a Teaspoon of V-C weights about 4.5 to 5 grams!
A 1 Gram spoon would be rather small!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#23  Post by ofonorow » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:31 am

I will go over the last post in detail later.

1 teaspoon of liposomal contains 1 gram of vitamin C.

The macrophages may in fact explain why the immune system turns into high gear.

But if losing encapsulation - whey the 10 hour extended life in the blood?

But I have seen (and will repost) the pictures of Empirical liposomes in the blood.

Most explanations of liposomes I have reda compare them to (nanosized) bubbles analogous to cells. When two bubbles get close together - they can form a single bubble due to various forces. This is one mechanism proposed that allows transfer contents of liposomes into cells, a merging with the cell membrane.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#24  Post by Johnwen » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:33 pm

1 teaspoon of liposomal contains 1 gram of vitamin C.


Exactly what I’ve been saying all along which equals about a 25% encapsulation. Now If the vehicle is phosphatidyl choline 1 teaspoon equals 5 Grams in weight. If you replace 1 gram with V-C in weight you have a 20% encapsulation in the liposomes. Which goes along with the 25% max. particulate encapsulation I explained before.

Now were going to go with another vehicle which is the favorite with the homebrew crowd. I will also explain the reason for the presumed failures that seem to plague their attempts. But in reality are actually successful but not to the percentages they are expecting.

First lets look at the vehicle in which their trying to encapsulate the V-C in which is usually Soy Lecithin. For this we’ll turn to Dr. Andrew Saul. I’ll post the link after this!

Dr. Andrew Saul says;
Lecithin is good for you. How good? Each tablespoon (7.5 grams) of lecithin granules contains about 1700 mg of phosphatidyl choline, 1000 mg of phosphatidyl inositol, and about 2,200 mg of essential fatty acids as linoleic acid. It also contains the valuable fish-oil-like, omega-3 linolenic acid. It is the rule, not the exception, for one or more of these valuable substances to be undersupplied by our daily diet.


His figures are pretty close to what most of the sellers advertise in their product. The two lipids were concerned with are phosphatidyl choline (PC) and phosphatidyl inositol (PI).
For the sake of clarity in the following I will use the standard rounding method where if it’s less (<) then .5 I will round DOWN and if it’s over (>) .5 I’ll round UP! So the results may not always equal a 100%.

We know the us Tablespoon contains 3 us teaspoons. So lets divide the figure to the teaspoon quantity.
7.5 Soy Lecithin \3 = 2.5 Grams in weight.
1700 Mg. PC \3= 567 Mg.
1000 Mg. PI \3= 333 Mg.
TOTALS: = 900 Mg.
So we have 900 Mg.s of vehicle but PC and PI Only have a encapsulation limit of 25% Max. So now let’s see how much V-C we can stuff in these vehicles.
900Mg X .25= 225 Mg. V-C encapsulation limit per teaspoon. A teaspoon of pure ascorbic acid weights about 4.5 Grams so lets see what part of a teaspoon we can get in to it.
4500mg. /225mg. =20 So it’s 1/20th of a teaspoon V-C we can put in a teaspoon of Soy lecithin to get a 100% encapsulation.
To look at it another way to have maximum encapsulation we would have to have 20 teaspoons of Soy lecithin and 1 Teaspoon of V-C to have a zero residue of V-C. Which in the body should not give any rise in serum levels. Not providing for macrophage response to it. Ie ZERO Bioavailability.

Now Most of the DIY places I’ve seen on Homemade Lypo say to use equal amounts of V-C and Lecithin. Let’s take a look at what happens if we do this using the teaspoon figure’s we have already established.

We put 1 teaspoon Lecithin which has a encapsulation limit of 225 Mg. Now we add 1 teaspoon of V-C or 4500 Mg. Now we process it and it looks like a glob of gook. Why!

In all sense you have taken the vehicles to the limit but now there is residue let’s see how much.
4500Mg.V-C - 225 Mg. That got encapsulated. = 4275Mg. Of Hydrophilic substance that you are now trying to Mix with a Hydrophobic substance.

Like Dr. Saul said:
about 2,200 mg of essential fatty acids as linoleic acid. It also contains the valuable fish-oil-like, omega-3 linolenic acid.


Yep! Your trying to mix Oil and Water! Which don’t work so good!

Anyway you figure heck! Everything here is consumable and you gulp it down! Then you get out the ole glucose meter and check your levels to see if it reads anything. After a check every hour about the second hour you start to see a rise. Wow! It must have been encapsulated it took a long time to show the V-C!
Now stop and think what you just consumed! What was that Dr. Saul said at the beginning?

about 2,200 mg of essential fatty acids as linoleic acid. It also contains the valuable fish-oil-like, omega-3 linolenic acid. It is the rule, not the exception, for one or more of these valuable substances to be undersupplied by our daily diet.


What are the two things the cells use Fat and Sugar! These high levels of fats that were in the mix that are undersupplied in the body and just what do you think the body is going to give priority to consuming? Yep! The fats!! The sugar like substance (V-C) which is the residue in the mix went where? Into the stores (kidney’s) or out the bladder then when the time comes and the fats have been used up the release of these stores are set out to be used for energy! The serum levels rise and become available insulin levels rise and now you have fat and energized cells. Probably a foul taste in your mouth from the lecithin also.

So as you can see your going to get a delayed spike and some encapsulated V-C available but wouldn’t it be better to just do the proper mix ratios so you get the benefits of the liposome delivery and if your looking for serum rises just take straight V-C!
Hope this clears up some question’s people may have about homemade lypo and get a better understanding of how it all comes together.


Here’s Dr. Saul’s writing:

http://doctoryourself.com/lecithin.html
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:55 am

Sigh.. now I have two long posts to respond to.. Regarding the 25% encapsulation - old email/post from Emek Blair.. They require a small amount but add more for nutrition.

The ratio of 400/1000:

The volume of a sphere = (4/3)*pi*radius^3.
Surface area of a sphere = = 4*pi*radius^2

That means that the for a 200 nm particle the volume enclosed is 37 times larger than the surface area of the liposome. That means that you need around 27 mg of PC to encapsulate 1000 mg of vitamin c. We use 400 mg so that people get some phosphatidylcholine nutrition.

Our liposomes remain stable in water due to natural forces. This is due to the high ionic strength (large amount of charge) that is on the inside of the liposome. The outside of the liposome remains stable due to the low amount of charge on the outside which allows the hydrophobic components wanting to be together.

For all of these e-mails, I apologize for using equations and mentioning a lot of very technical concepts briefly. Lipid structuring is what I have been doing for over a decade and these types of questions are extremely complicated. Perhaps you and I should come up with some simplified answers that are still scientifically valid.

What is the scientific backing for the statements that LivOnLabs makes?

Best regards,
Emek


Ergo the claim of 98% encapsulated claim to me based on this means that over 98% of the vitamin C in their (Emek's) liposomal vitamin C product is encapsulated inside a liposome.

Not that 98% of the possible liposomes created contain vitamin C.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#26  Post by Johnwen » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:59 am

That means that you need around 27 mg of PC to encapsulate 1000 mg of vitamin c.


I’m hoping this is a typo because it’s physically impossible!!!

It’s like saying he’s stuffing a hundred pounds of Do-Do in a five pound bag!

That’s a 37 to 1 Ratio or said another way Their doing a 3705% encapsulation????

Let’s say you have a tiny box that holds 27 mg of PC and another that holds 1000Mg. Of ascorbic acid. Now what he’s trying to say is he’s going to jam that bigger box of ascorbic acid inside the smaller box of PC. Yea the inside volume of the product in the little box has voids but the outer part of the sphere is what’s occupying the volume of the box. That’s what give the product it’s volume of 27 Mg. In fact the density of PC is greater then V-C which means the box of PC is going to be about 15% smaller then an equal amount of V-C. Now unless the V-C is a gas no matter now hard you try there is no way your going to fit the 1000 Mg of V-C in a box that is the size to hold 27Mg. Of PC.
If the products and applications were switched it would be feasible however as written I would have to say the following line applies here!

To me there’s an old saying that I believe applies here.
“If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS!”
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#27  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:27 pm

I cannot question his math at the moment (he is on vacation) but I will when he returns unless we can figure this out. (You may be right that he meant 270 mg, not 27, but now I have to do the calculations :( Nope 27 matches his calcuation. Below)

He is saying the liposomal bubble membrane - one particle wide - has an inner volume that can encase or encapsulate vitamin C molecules in water.

And that the weight/constituency of the bubble itself weighs a lot less than the inner contents of the bubble.


The ratio of 400/1000:

The volume of a sphere = (4/3)*pi*radius^3.
Surface area of a sphere = = 4*pi*radius^2

That means that the for a 200 nm particle the volume enclosed is 37 times larger than the surface area of the liposome. That means that you need around 27 mg of PC to encapsulate 1000 mg of vitamin c.


37 * 27 = 999

Ergo, he might be wrong - but he apparently intended these numbers
.



Added.
It’s like saying he’s stuffing a hundred pounds of Do-Do in a five pound bag!


The assumption is that a "five pound bag" can only carry five pounds.

In this case the "five pound bag" only weighs five pounds. It just has to be big enough for the 100 pounds of Do-Do.


That’s a 37 to 1 Ratio or said another way Their doing a 3705% encapsulation????


I am lost here, but what I think they are saying is that 37 times the number of molecules that make up the sphere can fit inside the sphere.

Let’s say you have a tiny box that holds 27 mg of PC and another that holds 1000Mg. Of ascorbic acid. Now what he’s trying to say is he’s going to jam that bigger box of ascorbic acid inside the smaller box of PC. Yea the inside volume of the product in the little box has voids but the outer part of the sphere is what’s occupying the volume of the box. That’s what give the product it’s volume of 27 Mg. In fact the density of PC is greater then V-C which means the box of PC is going to be about 15% smaller then an equal amount of V-C. Now unless the V-C is a gas no matter now hard you try there is no way your going to fit the 1000 Mg of V-C in a box that is the size to hold 27Mg. Of PC.
If the products and applications were switched it would be feasible however as written I would have to say the following line applies here!

To me there’s an old saying that I believe applies here.
“If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS!”

Again senility is creeping in..my head hurts.. maybe a function of hernia surgery?

But to carry your analogy forward.. the 'tiny' box that holds the 27 mg of PC wouldn't be tiny. It would be huge, and the box would have the thickness of one PLC molecule. That question we are asking is if such a 1-molecule thick box can contain the 1000 mg of vitamin C inside.

And 27 mg is the total weight of the material that is used to create the bubbles.

The bubbles in this example are 200 nanometers. I guess the next question is how many bubbles can 27 mg create?
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#28  Post by Johnwen » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:15 pm

A nanometer is a unit of length which equals to 1 / 1,000,000,000th of a meter.
That’s One Billionth of a meter!

1 in = 25,400,000 Nanometer’s
That’s One Inch equals 25million 400thousand Nanometers!

200 nm =7.87401574803E-6 in
That’s to the MINUS 6 POWER!
Or
=0.0000041958753063373565957 in.


Which means a 200 nanometer diameter sphere is about about 100,000 times smaller then a human hair.

A human hair is about 240,000 nanometers thick!

Using the 200 Nanometer figure you would have to put 127,000 of these spheres next to each other in a line to equal 1 INCH!

So tell How Big would a 27 Mg. Box be????

27 Mg. is a unit of weight not size as I said before One teaspoon of PC equals 5 grams.
The volume of the weight.
1 Teaspoons (US) = 0.30077993227 Cubic Inch
5000Mg. Of PC per teaspoon
So we divide the cubic inch by 5000 and multiply it by 27 and get the size!

0.30077993227/5000*27=.0016621163 Cubic inches
About this size “.”

Not much is it???? Now cram a 1000mg V-C capsule of powder into that dot!
Good luck!

Added later:
BTW: That dot as a cube can hold 9,405,789 -200Nm diameter Liposome’s
Last edited by Johnwen on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#29  Post by Johnwen » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:08 am

Subject BUBBLES!

First the reference of bubbles is what happens inside the human body when the liposome combines with a cell and the two merge and the liposome gets dissolved, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN IN THE PROCESS OF ENCAPSULATION!!!
If it did the Liposome would loose it’s characteristics and be put through the digestive process which would be the same as taking the product by itself!

Hydrophobic substances have to be pushed into the core of the liposome.
Vitamin E is a good example where only a 54% encapsulation has been attained.

Hydrophilic substances can be forcefully absorbed into the outer bilayer of the liposome. Where the particles can be transported to the core.

In both cases the maximum particulate capacity of the individual liposome is only 25% of the individual liposome’s weight. Which by now you realize is quite minimal.

It’s hydro capacity can be a 100% however in processing, drying of the liposome’s will remove the hydro part and leave the particulate matter in the core. Upon mixing it with water before consumption will revive some of the hydration but not to the levels seen during processing thusly leaving the core particulate matter intact. Once it combines with a cell and a bubble forms, digesting some of the outer layers of the liposome will release it’s core into the cells structure.

NOTE; some of the particles may become lodged in the outer layers during the hydration processing and will break down either during mixing with water before consumption or once they get in the serum components in the body.

Now do you want to talk about the structure of Stealth Liposome’s?????
How about Target Specific Liposome’s?????
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#30  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:47 am

There is a lot to go back and reply to in this thread! This in response to second to last post.

Using the 200 Nanometer figure you would have to put 127,000 of these spheres next to each other in a line to equal 1 INCH!

So tell How Big would a 27 Mg. Box be????

27 Mg. is a unit of weight not size as I said before One teaspoon of PC equals 5 grams.


It might. Our product is not as viscous as Livon's and contains more water (or perhaps other liquids to promote stability) thus 400 mg PLC and 1000 mg vitamin C fits into 5 ML. A teaspoon.

The volume of the weight.
1 Teaspoons (US) = 0.30077993227 Cubic Inch
5000Mg. Of PC per teaspoon
So we divide the cubic inch by 5000 and multiply it by 27 and get the size!

0.30077993227/5000*27=.0016621163 Cubic inches
About this size “.”

Except that in our case - the teaspoon contains 400 mg of PC not 5000 mg. (The other fluids).

Not much is it???? Now cram a 1000mg V-C capsule of powder into that dot!
Good luck!


We are (should be) looking for how much vitamin C (how many molecules) can fit inside each nano particle. How did we get to " fitting 1000 mg of vitamin in a dot ?" (it fits into all the "bubbles" in the teaspoon).

Emeks point is that you only require 27 mg of PC to encapsulate 1000 mg of vitamin C.

Taking your numbers 0.30077993227/400*27=.0016621163 Cubic inches
0.000751949830675 * 27 =
0.020302645428225 cubic inches.

Basically .02 instead of .002

Note that 27/1000 is .027 to 1.



Added later:
BTW: That dot as a cube can hold 9,405,789 -200Nm diameter Liposome’s


Again my aching brain, but with the correction (from 5000 to what is in the product, 400 mg PC) the numbers seem to jive.
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