Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo reading?

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#31  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:18 am

See number change suggestion in preceding post.

On to bubbles. I am no liposome expert, but the basic ideas (of how liposomes resemble cells in their natural tendency to form spheres) I learned from this short youtube video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQA9YlhgTQc

I suspect that Emek's process is different in several ways.


Johnwen wrote:Subject BUBBLES!

First the reference of bubbles is what happens inside the human body when the liposome combines with a cell and the two merge and the liposome gets dissolved, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN IN THE PROCESS OF ENCAPSULATION!!!
If it did the Liposome would loose it’s characteristics and be put through the digestive process which would be the same as taking the product by itself!

Hydrophobic substances have to be pushed into the core of the liposome.

The video illustrates that there is at least one other way.

My guess (and only a guess regarding the Emek/Empirical process) is that vitamin C is completely dissolved in the pharmaceutical grade water. After the liposomes form with their aqueous center filled with water - the liposome is also filled with the vitamin C that had been dissolved in the water.

I am quite certain there is no high PSI involved.

A bubble may be a poor analogy, but it is what is inside the bubble, and how and when the bubble breaks.


Vitamin E is a good example where only a 54% encapsulation has been attained.
Hydrophilic substances can be forcefully absorbed into the outer bilayer of the liposome. Where the particles can be transported to the core.

In both cases the maximum particulate capacity of the individual liposome is only 25% of the individual liposome’s weight. Which by now you realize is quite minimal.

I freely admit I do not follow. Liposome technology has been around for 40+ years and by now there must be many technologies for creating them. But to say "the capacity is 25% of the individual lipsome's weight is wrong" - or Emek is wrong.

We are not talking about embedding vitamin C in the bylayer, so maybe your next point addresses this? The vitamin C is contained in the aqueous interior.


It’s hydro capacity can be a 100%

Here we go!

however in processing, drying of the liposome’s will remove the hydro part and leave the particulate matter in the core. Upon mixing it with water before consumption will revive some of the hydration but not to the levels seen during processing thusly leaving the core particulate matter intact.


Even if the above is true, I have never heard of "drying liposomes" prior to consumption? In fact, either in the material/links you provided, or somewhere else, it pointed out that there has to be sufficient water to prevent the liposomes from merging/combining. Like bubbles So if you removed the water, it is likely the liposomes would be destroyed. It was your link - about what happens in the liver. And this seems to be the problem with Mercola's so-called liposomes - not enough water, just a gooy blob if you open the capsule.

Once it combines with a cell and a bubble forms, digesting some of the outer layers of the liposome will release it’s core into the cells structure.


This is one theory - the so called "energy free", no cell membrane transport needed idea.

It is "easier" (at least for me at this point) to think that, at least in the case of vitamin C, that they break down in the liver, and then the liver acts like it would had it all the enzymes to make vitamin C. (Otherwise, how and why does it last in the blood, how does it "find" the cells that need vitamin C (like a transporter might help with) etc.


NOTE; some of the particles may become lodged in the outer layers during the hydration processing and will break down either during mixing with water before consumption or once they get in the serum components in the body.

Now do you want to talk about the structure of Stealth Liposome’s?????
How about Target Specific Liposome’s?????


Ah, maybe but I have a lot of previous posts to comment on - starting with your agreement with Dr. Hickey about IV/C versus liposomal C. By the way, have you used or tried a truly liposomal C? (I gather Hickey is making his own "homemade" style).

Aside I saw my alt doc this weekend and I attempted to show him some of the testimonials. His answer, not believing vitamin C was responsible, was that the Lecithin all by itself - the health benefits of the PLC, explains all these testimonials. (I didn't want to argue because that would mean that all "liposomal", if they worked via the PLC effect, would be on par. Clearly they are not. So we finally agreed the way to find out is to create the same liposomal - without vitamin C. The placebo? And see if we get the same results. But I have not doubt it is the vitamin C in these products that has the amazing curative effect regarding infection.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#32  Post by Johnwen » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:40 am

I’ve been waiting to see the picture or drawing showing the presumed workings but I guess you been busy so I’ll present mine. The first one here is from wiki which shows the drug delivery method. However it is compounded into a Varity of delivery systems that have been used in liposomes. Including a targeted type, an encapsulation type, a non functional type of stealth delivery, a viral/cancer type and a hydrophobic type. The ones on the outer circumference are used to ward off attacks by the immune system or other attacking elements which would break the capsule causing the release of the drug prematurely rendering the drug useless or causing unintended harm.
The ones in the bilayer are the lipid type of drugs which are basically fat based drugs.
The ones in the core void area is the hydrophilic drugs which are the surprise package the cells will received once the liposome is combined with the cell. The DNA package is the one intended for viral/cancer type cells they work by dumping a new program into the cell which changes the actions of the cell or causes it to die off.
You’ll also notice the yellow ring around the outer circumference of the sphere this the fat ring that makes it known as a lipid!
Note, in the different variety’s shown those tentacles sticking out of the outer circumference would protrude around the entire sphere for the type of application.
So this picture is rather confusing because it has a bunch of different transport methods and unless you are knowledgeable of the workings of a liposome Which after reading this your one step closer!

Image

In this picture it is a close up of the liposome’s homing peptides modified for stealth delivery these are the keys to the particular type of cell. They also act as a barb to repel (make invisible) to any adversarial attacks.

Image

This picture is a plain liposome used for V-C delivery it’s just for illustration of what type of vitamin is going to be delivered. I’m showing about a 10% encapsulation of V-C. With a 100% encapsulation the complete inner core would be occupied which would displace any of the blue water shown and the core would be completely white. Any residual I mentioned before would be stuck in the fat ring around the outer circumference of the sphere some would also be stuck in the outer bilayers.

Image


Owen; I started on this post yesterday and also did the calculations of where the 25% comes from. Some of these type of calculations I haven’t done in 40 years and needless to say my brain hurt’s. However I was still familiar enough to realize when I was heading in the wrong direction. I’ll polish them up and post them later today.
I realize your busy and I respect that but the purpose here is to learn and be knowledgeable of the products in our war chest to aid us in holding off the nay sayer’s who would belittle us for their own profit‘$!
BTW; I took half of last week and all of next week off for vacation due!
Remember those day’s? But hay! I worked 24/7 for over 35 years so yes! It’s time for a break!
Hope these links work OK!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#33  Post by Johnwen » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:07 pm

Here, I’m going to try to explain the volume of a sphere so that everybody can understand how this works. I’m then going to show how the capacity of a liposome, only has a capacity that equals 25% of the volume of a 200 Nanometer diameter liposome sphere has.

First I’m going to use something I believe were all familiar with a, “Beach Ball.” In fact where going to use two! Instead of exercising our lungs were going to fill them with water! We have a large one 20” in diameter and a little smaller one that measures in at 13”. They don’t look a whole lot smaller or larger but it’s noticeable! We also have a gallon jug and a way to keep count on how many gallon’s we pour into them!
So we fill the small one first and it takes right around 5 gallons then we fill the bigger one and it takes a splash over 18 Gallons. Now we going to get creative we going to drain them dry and were going to put the little one inside the big one! We see that the 3 and ½ inches on each side isn’t all that much but it’s still smaller. So now we fill up the little one and it don’t look like we got much room to fit much water in the big one to take up the gap. So we start measuring water into it and yep! It takes 13 and a splash gallons to fill it up! That can’t be right can it??? That smaller ball is only 35% smaller then the big one, even though it didn’t appear that much smaller.
Why did it take so much water?? Because most of the volume of a sphere is in the outer 1/3 of it’s circumference! Hmmmm!

How about this! You have a bunch of yarn or string and to keep from getting tangled, your going to roll it in a ball. So you start and get it about the size of the palm of your hand and you look down and it don’t even look like you wrapped any of it. Then you notice as the ball gets bigger your hand seems to be passing more and more string and you look down and now your putting a good dent in that pile.
Same thing as the beach balls the bigger the circumference of the sphere the more it holds and the inside circumferences have less of an area exponentially.
By now if you been following this link you got a pretty good idea that a 200 nanometer liposome is pretty small, in fact down right tiny!!
But like our beach balls the physical laws of nature apply.

So using the formulas that are posted on this post which are pretty accurate but need to be applied accurately. With the comment it would be a “HUGE number!!” For the sake of keeping things brief I’m not going to go step by step on the math because the results can carry out to >30 digits. And would probably take up 2 or three lines for each number. Just thank goodness for the windows calculator that can handle these number’s So let’s see how Huge things get???

First the OUTER sphere is 200 nm in diameter the bilayer is around 37 nm thick and which leaves a inner core diameter of 126 nm. Which is 63% of the outer diameter!
The diameters calculate out as follows.
200 nm sphere has a capacity of 4,188,790 cubic nm (or nm³)
Seems HUGE 4 million??
Now we convert that to Cubic Inches because it’s the American standard which is still around!
We get! 2.556156479461E-16 ( Don’t get excited that’s to the exponential Minus 16) which is!

0.00000030102483109 cubic inches (in³)

That’s 3, 10 millionth’s of an inch.
Not much!

Now the INNER sphere which has a diameter of 126 nm.
Which calculates out to 1,047,198 nm³

To cubic inches is 6.390394249840929E-17 (Remember the E well it’s MINUS 17)

Which converts to 0.000000000000020231598 in.³

Which is right around 2 trillionth’s of a inch. Yep take an inch and slice it up into 2 trillion pieces and have it for lunch! Sorry!

So let’s figure our percentage that inner sphere can hold (volume) in comparison to the to the total volume of the whole sphere.

(inner) 1047198 / (Outer) 4188790 =.2500001 Looks like 25%
Check:√
4188790 X .25 = 1047197.9
Yep 25%

So the maximum capacity a 200 nm sphere can hold is 25% of the total volume of the liposome. Which is it’s 100% capacity. Which like a truck or a box the size of the void (cargo area) is filled to the max. But it doesn’t include the tare weight or size of the vehicle that carry’s it.
Since the lipid based products go in the bilayer is another story as I said before they have attained 54% but look where it has to go!

BTW: The capacity of the smaller beach ball is about 27% of the larger one!

It seems kind of weird because most of the time we’re looking at a 2 dimensional drawing on a paper however add the 3rd dimension and you see it’s a ball. What your seeing in the 2d drawing is just like cutting the ball down the center in half and viewing the inside of the cut area. Looks can be deceiving!

Hope this helps!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels?

Post Number:#34  Post by ofonorow » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:17 pm

Enjoy your vacation (I am jealous). I am first responding to the post your wrote 2 posts back with the nice graphics.. my brain hurts too. (Maybe by the time you return this will be separated or retitled).

This picture is a plain liposome used for V-C delivery it’s just for illustration of what type of vitamin is going to be delivered. I’m showing about a 10% encapsulation of V-C. With a 100% encapsulation the complete inner core would be occupied which would displace any of the blue water shown and the core would be completely white. Any residual I mentioned before would be stuck in the fat ring around the outer circumference of the sphere some would also be stuck in the outer bilayers.


This is interesting because one problem with ascorbate in water - it tends to break down! According to biochemist Sherry Lewin (1976) If the inside of the liposome is almost pure vitamin C (at 100% encapsulation) than at least one one issue - ultra high potency - may be a little clearer.

I did find the other designs interesting (for drug delivery) because targeting specific cells, and targeting the nucleus (and/or mitochondria) of specific cells could be quite exciting... Did I say liposomal TA-65....


Added

Why does 100% encapsulation have to mean that that payload is full? Couldn't there be one bubble around every vitamin C molecule? Certainly enough room inside. Just need enough bubbles (from 27 mg) to encapsulate the number of molecules inside 1000 mg of vitamin C
. Maybe your next topic discusses this..
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#35  Post by Johnwen » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:47 pm

Why does 100% encapsulation have to mean that that payload is full? Couldn't there be one bubble around every vitamin C molecule? Certainly enough room inside. Just need enough bubbles (from 27 mg) to encapsulate the number of molecules inside 1000 mg of vitamin C. Maybe your next topic discusses this..



Ok! After reading this confusing question a few dozen times and still being confused by it . I’ll reinerate a summary of what I said before!

The V-C goes inside the liposome not the other way around. The maximum capacity (100%) of the P.C lipo is 25% of it’s volume. Ie. Sphere inside a sphere!

So to encapsulate 1000Mg. (1 gram) Of V-C you would need 4000Mg. Of PC. Then use a mechanical force to drive the V-C molecules to the inner sphere (cargo area) of the PC.
If you succeeded in 100% encapsulation you would have ZERO V-C residue.
By measuring the residual V-C you can evaluate how effective your encapsulation process is.

Now to Bubbles again!
In Lipo science the term, “BUBBLE,” Refers to when the Liposome becomes attached to a living cell and in basic terms, begins to be eaten by the cell. This combo of lipo and a living cell is called a “BUBBLE!”

If you have a different idea of what a bubble is I would like to hear an explanation!

I explained before about this!

If your thinking you can stuff a lipo with more cargo then it can already handle to make some kind of a bubble, all your going to do is Destroy it and might as well just pop a V-C pill. Because the lipid would just be a broken piece of FAT and it’s purpose would be defeated.

Because 27Mg. Of PC can only hold 6.75 Mg. of V-C MAX!

An earlier question about phosphatidyl-inositol (PI) When used in lipo drug delivery has an infinity to Virus and Brain type cells. However it doesn’t last as long as PC in the body and is broken down more rapidly which is ok with V-C but some targeted drugs they have attempted to use this vehicle with don’t do so well, either to the body or the drug itself. Ie. It could turn poison or be chemically altered, rendering it useless!
However since it’s a integral part of lecithin which the homemade lypo’s use, it could give some benefits either in the blood or perhaps hooking up with a virus or two and knocking them off or making it to the brain so they can understand things better.
Who knows ??

I await some clarification so I can expound as to how these things really work!
Have you heard from the expert lately??
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#36  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:58 am

Hi Johnwen, here is Emek's response.

Emek Blair wrote:I don't understand his logic as it lacks the math to back it up.

The ratio of lipid to vitamin c is specific to the liposome diameter... you cannot generalize.

Where is the 4 to 1 ratio from? His argument is akin to saying that you need 4 kg of bottle to hold 1 kg (1 liter) of water. Furthermore, we have conclusive clinical data showing the system works (pharmacokinetics).

Also, lipos that are used for in pharmaceuticals are usually lipophillic drugs.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#37  Post by Johnwen » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:36 am

I believe this gentleman needs a little more education of how this process works. Here’s a slide show that gives the basics of what were dealing with the process is the same for V-C! It’s going to the same place that being inside the sphere as you will clearly see here.

http://www.slideshare.net/uapnazmul/lip ... lideshow=1


The formula for calculating the volume of a sphere is this.

volume = (4/3) · π · r3

When you have a sphere inside a sphere, the inner sphere will displace it’s amount of volume from the outer sphere, even if the volume is a void. Not logic, but physical science!!

At this point I’m totally curious to hear the other side of this educational experience. So I can decipher and comprehend their ideas. It’s obvious to me there is some form of misinformation on their part involved here.
Keep in mind were also were dealing with submicroscopic particles so the math here get’s quite lengthy in numbers being dealt with!

A nanometer is a unit of length which equals to 1 / 1,000,000,000th of a meter.
That’s One Billionth of a meter!

200 nm =7.87401574803E-6 in
That’s to the EXPONENTIAL MINUS 6!
Or
=0.0000041958753063373565957 in.


So let’s hear it! I rest my case.
Anyone can say, “Your wrong!” Show me the error of my ways, is the proof!!!

Heres a calculator for hydrophillic encapsulation
http://www.liposomemodel.com/
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#38  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:07 am

Hi johnwen - first link isn't working (at least for me) get an Ooops message re slideshow.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#39  Post by Johnwen » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:50 am

Hmm! Tried it on 4 different computers, Smart phone, Tablet and 2 different browser’s.
All worked!!

Perhaps your virus protection don’t like it??
I checked the site with AVG and it came back clean!

Maybe your system is being overloaded (work day) Try it later and see.

You can try typing in the first part that’s visible on the link up to Uapnazmul/
Or see if this gets you there!

http://www.slideshare.net/uapnazmul/

And see if it get’s you on the site. If it does then go up to the top and in the search box. Type in, “liposmal drug delivery system.” Then click on the first link and you should be there. Actually the other links are pretty informative also.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#40  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:58 am

Link works at work.

Don't shoot the messenger. This is an interesting discussion..


Emek wrote:This is where he is going wrong with his math. It's surface area of the sphere with density of lipid packing approximates the amount of liposomal membrane needed (you could also do sphere in a sphere too with delta of the radii being the membrane thickness and use density of the lipid packing).

The math I sent you before is simplified and assumes that vitamin c packs at the same density the lipids do (vitamin c is more compact than the lipids and ionic and packs much more densely).

This individual is missing a variety of points: 1. His math does not represent the system, 2. Loading rate is specific to liposome diameter and lipid material, there is no general rule for this, 3. My 1 kg water bottles does not have 4 kg of plastic to hold it, 4. This conversation is somewhat irrelevant as the liposomes work (we are interested in the outcome).

I think it's ironic that he states that the math is lengthy (this is true) but uses a single equation with one variable for his entire argument. The variables are packing density of lipid and vitamin c, liposome radius, pH, temperature, ionic strength of solution, and more. For instance, we us the same amount of lipid for half as much glutathione.

Another point of irony. If you plug in the numbers correctly to the website he provided, http://www.liposomemodel.com, it supports our lipid / vitamin c ratio (I think he did not calculate molarity correctly and underestimated it).

The website also uses a different math model than his sphere in a sphere model.

Once again though, the liposomal c works and is proven clinically in university studies. http://cctsi.ucdenver.edu/Public%20Documents/newsletters/CCTSI-Connections-FallWinter2013.pdf. This will be published soon.

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#41  Post by Johnwen » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:34 pm

When Vitamin C is delivered directly into the circulation, such as with a needle inserted into a vein or artery, the amount of Vitamin C starting in the syringe is the same amount of Vitamin C that eventually appears in the blood. Not so when Vitamin C is taken orally, such as in the form of a pill. During the journey from the mouth to the blood, Vitamin C under goes volatile interactions with biological juices, including saliva, oral bacteria, stomach acids, digestive juices, and then, when it finally makes it out of the gut, it faces additional challenges from the juices in the liver. In summary, the 500mg of Vitamin C swallowed in a pill might be less than 200 mg by the time it arrives in the blood. For Vitamin C supplementation to be effective, it may need an alternative mode of delivery...

Enter the liposome! Liposomes are tiny (microscopic) bubbles. They have an outer shell comprised of healthy fatty acid (phospholipids) and a hollow center that can be filled with a variety of substances, including Vitamin C. When liposomes filled with Vitamin C are swallowed, the outer layer of the liposome protects the Vitamin C from gastric juices and liver enzymes. Once in the blood, the outer layer dissolves ,liberating the Vitamin C.



Being a physician for more then 40 years when I read such misinformation such as this that’s from the link Emitt provided. It makes me shudder!! This is what makes it hard to believe that this it is actually allowed to be posted.

Just a few misgivings I found I’ll keep it short!

1. Liposomes are subjected to destruction in the blood by one thing, “The immune system!”
Where macrophages attack the lipo They are what breaks and consume the outer layer and it’s contents.
On this point, if this was an accurate presentation? It would have to be the result of a inflammatory storm which would be creating havoc on the entire system.

2. Liposomes are recognized by the body as lipoproteins are. They are the fats that feed our cells. Ever hear of Serum cholesterol? Shouldn’t it just fall apart in the blood also? It don’t it floats around till a cell grabs it and eats it or the liver recycles it!

3. Has anyone of these people heard of, “Lipofection?” If not they need to find out what it is and how it works!

4. Reading such misgivings in that article, I can understand how this would confuse and baffle those as to how liposomes truly work and what their real benefits are!

5. At least they know the structure of a liposome is. A sphere inside (cargo area) another spear (vehicle)!
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#42  Post by Johnwen » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:58 pm

Some after thought’s!

One thing that will probably be expounded on is the rise in V-C levels in the blood. This would be the action of the liposome’s acting as a excipient of the ascorbic acid due insufficient or overloading of ascorbic acid in the which the liposome’s have reached capacity and the residual’s have became attached to the outer lipid shell of the liposome’s. Then were released by the turbidity of the blood flow. Making it a amphiphile similar to it’s interior structure only on the surface.

Another possibility which I doubt since it’s a patented process is their creating a vesosome in which a group of unilamellar vesicles are incorporated into a single multivesicular vesicle which is encapsulated by a unilamellar lumen. In addition to liposome cargo it could carry a hydrophilic substance in the void areas. These type of particles go by the name of Depo-Foam®.

But without knowing the actual residual V-C content of the product before consumption all this could be the result of high priced, high potency free V-C product which just use’s the liposome as a excipient.

Another point that I would like to expound on is after reading Emitt’s and the link provide comments and pondering them for awhile it became apparent to me that there is an assumption that a liposome is some sort of sponge material that allows the flow of internal components in and out of the liposome.

If he were to study the compositions of the bilayer material he would see that it is a structure that does not allow easy passage in or out and the interior core is in fact become’s a hydro impenetrable sphere. Due to the make up of the interior bilayer which is the hydrophobic end of the bilayer. One of the advantages of this is although they can be forcefully penetrated they will reseal themselves. Much like the septa of a injection vial.

These characteristics give way to the fact that it’s area can be calculated as a sphere. The outside of the vesicle is the hydrophilic end of the bilayer has the hydrophilic end of the bilayer however it is coated with a lipid coat which prevents it from hydro intrusion. This coating is what keeps it separated in the hydro fluids of the serum. However it is also the area susceptible to erosion in it’s travels. If this happens it loses it’s characteristics as a lipid and is then subject to attack by macrophages which will then recognize it as a threat and be destroyed and consumed or taken to the liver for disposal.

How these structures are consumed by the cells is a process called Endocytosis with a more specific action called phagocytosis. I would suggest looking up and study these actions. Which would require too much space for me to write about here.

Looking into autophagy also would give one an idea of what liposome’s have to do with cell apoptosis and the benefit’s of V-C in this process.

To me another thing this all looks like the initiation of a factoid is how their using junk science and derogatory insinuations to try to spread their misinformation. To some people it would have no impact but to me basing my actions on misinformation could cost someone their life. Yes I take the time to weight the information presented and become suspicious of any information that is not repeated or doesn’t seem to go along with basic natural reactions. I also take issue with comments that are counter to common knowledge without sufficient research and presentations of documents, facts or figures to back up their claim specific to the actions and results. Anyone can say your wrong about something but without proving your point your claims to me go unfounded and are usually ignored.
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#43  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:22 am

I admit I am having trouble following where this is going? I thought the main issue (after why didn't the glucose meters pick up on vitamin C in the blood when taken at the same time as liposomal vitamin C) was essentially: How can Empirical/Blair claim nearly 100% encapsulation.

I am sure there is speculation how and why liposomes work, and my current issue is whether they can in fact be ten times as effective as IV/C directly into the vein. But even if we can demonstrate this, we have to speculate on the reasons why, if true. (And Colorado State as initiated a startup company that hopes to take advantage of the machrophage's ability to gobble up liposomes - as a means to fight cancers. Another story.)

So back to what we think we know. We have Hickey's graph of oral vitamin C in the blood, both powder and liposomal, and I am told I will soon be able to share Empiricals/CSU's charts of their study. (Maybe it was in Emek's link, but I was unable to open it...)

#1. Vitamin C delivered via liposomes is measured in the blood peaking between hours 2 and 3 after ingestion.

#2. Levels in the Hickey study were comparable between powder and Liposomal. (I think they gave a very high dosage of powder.)

#3. The Empirical/CSU measurements were higher than the liposomal Hickey used (Livon's I believe) and they lasted longer in the blood (levels had not dropped down to baseline after 10 hours)

#4 Ascorbic acid by itself can peak rapidly in the blood (e.g 20 minutes). It is unknown (by me) if there is a secondary spike at hours 2-3, i.e. if some ascorbic acid also travels down the GI tract (rather than is absorbed directly through the stomach lining.)

Some speculation.

A) Liposomal works better than IV/C even though IV/C immediately raises blood levels 1000s of times over oral. The "pharmokenetics" of liposomal resemble what we see with sodium ascorbate orally - it takes a while to make it into the blood stream. Yet, fighting infection with an ascorbate salt is not as effective as liposomal? Why? Lindi just mailed me and I encouraged her to post her result of a test of one bottle of Emek/Quali-c liposomal at the end of her original description of her "intractable" infections. http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11596
Her main interest is ending her lingering infection. Mine is the example (independent test) of Emek's liposomes encapsulating DSM Quali-C. One reason it works better might be because IV/C blows its wad quickly - and out the kidneys - not enough can enter cells no matter what the blood concentration rises to.

It would seem that a likely reason (other than immune cell take up) is higher concentrations of vitamin C entering cells (but then why does it linger in the blood so much longer, e.g. 10 hours?)

Supporting the idea that liposomal vitamin C increases intracellular concentrations..


Targeted intracellular delivery of therapeutics: an overview.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=17944316
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

Johnwen
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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#44  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:38 am

I’m going to try to keep this as simple as possible so you can get a grasp on it without all the techy yada. I‘ve did some searching to get something that would meet these parameter’s. At this point here’s two the first is a presentation that’s from a manufacturer or garage scientist that I guess sells lipo products but their pretty open and accurate on what their presenting, I won’t digress into the technical details of what does what but it’ll give one a good summary of what’s going on.

http://www.meminerals.com/Database/Desc ... LIPVC.html


As you can see from that link to get raised blood levels the lipo’s are broken down in the gut and release through the GI absorption process. Which doesn’t assure it will in fact get where it suppose to go! However in dealing with drugs etc. that must directly get in the blood stream to do their work. You’ll see that involves more refined methods. One that meets these needs is Insulin! Which must be placed into the working parts of the body and into circulation to do it’s job and would be just passed thru the GI system if taken orally. In this link you see that oral administration with Lipo’s attempts this method and you’ll see that to get the insulin or any other substance directly into the blood where it can get to work is not just as simple as some would have you to believe.

http://www.academia.edu/1253481/Oral_na ... n_delivery

Those are the two but here is a particle that also comes into play when dealing with Liposome’s it’s called a Micelle plural being Micella which is a morphism of a liposome. For now just try to wrap your brain around it to get an idea what it is. I’m going to show how this vehicle can become a by product of sonification of a liposome. I got to polish and prepare this so it’ll be a day or two.
It’s a wiki and their looking for $$$ again!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle

Hope you caught where the first link came from!! :o
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Vit C effects on blood glucose levels? Why no lipo read

Post Number:#45  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:24 am

Here are 3 different liposomal products under a video microscope. The question still is how do the Blair-process spheres make it intact into the blood stream?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wOmiXqwQKmI
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter


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