sodium/chloride/potassium - repost of 2012 discussion

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gofanu
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sodium/chloride/potassium - repost of 2012 discussion

Post Number:#1  Post by gofanu » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:54 am

Following is my copy of my contribution to a or some thread(s) in 2012, which seems to have gone missing.
While it is only half the conversation, it is all the information, or is linked to such.
Each post has the date and thread to which it was originally posted.
I do not recall if the original was one or several threads. I do tend to consolidate posts somewhat for my records, as I seem to keep saying the same stuff over and over and ovverrr...

The "salt" question as applied to blood pressure is largely based on the clearly flawed and fraudulently used Intersalt study. It fits the pattern of the cholesterol studies and those showing Vitamin C does nothing useful beyond some ridiculously small amount.

*********
Posted 20 Feb 2012
at: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9704&p=28611#p28611

"As it turns out it's not sodium that is the killer, but sodium in combination with chloride (as in table salt)."
Also BS.

Some fraction of the population is "salt sensitive".' their blood pressure decreases slightly when salt is reduced. Better reductions are usually the result if potassium is increased, and even Pharm-Med agrees that the average potassium intake is around half of what even they say is required. (2 to 2.5gm/day vs 4.7gm/day). Not to mention many other blood pressure lowering factors, including magnesium and calcium and vitamin C and fish oil and iodine. The stupid FDA restriction on potassium is, I believe, a direct effort to keep people from dealing with their own blood pressure as Pharm-Med SELLS BP DRUGS AND SERVICES.
This restriction has absolutely NOTHING to do with reality.

"...the chloride in Sodium Chloride which should be managed."
See preceding.
AND: chloride is absolutely essential to absorption of many nutrients, including potassium and magnesium and calcium. And protein, and complex carbohydrates.
The party line is that "we" get "enough" chloride in the salt we eat. That would be the same salt they are trying to get you to not eat.
I have spent many hours searching the "official" view re chloride, and it is barely mentioned, as they go off about evil sodium. And SELLING ANTACIDS.

Further, iodized salt is the only reliable source of iodine for most people who do not supplement. This is relevant because virtually every operation in the body is under thyroid control or influence, and that requires iodine. Among these are the regulation of stomach acid from chloride, and the entire cardiovascular and renal systems, which deal with sodium.

Nearly as many people show a decrease in blood pressure, when salt is increased.
It is well established that people worldwide automatically adjust salt intake to a specific range, and that the US is like most places exactly in the center of that range. The new recommendations are at or below the bottom of the range.
"Americans consume about 3,500 mg/day of sodium; men more, women less. The very large percentage of the population consumes 1,150- 5,750 mg/day which is termed the "hygienic safety range" of sodium intake by renowned Swedish hypertension expert Dr. Björn Folkow. "

Bottom lines is that with the possible exception of obese middle aged men, there is NO EVIDENCE that salt restriction has any positive effects on blood pressure, and a lot to show that it has very many negative effects on morbidity and mortality.
I have far too many documents to link them all, but this is a good start:
http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/5/1013.full

FRM

&&&&&&&&&&&&
Dave-
There is an initial statement, to the effect that "...sodium...is the killer".
You correctly cite Klenner as having shown this is nonsense, as do many other sources.
Hence the initial statement is BS;

You then state "(the killer is)...sodium in combination with chloride (as in table salt)."
There is no evidence for this in most people without kidney failure, and in those sensitive people it is a minor blood pressure regulating factor only. "killer" is a ridiculous appellation for something that might cause a few mm increase in BP in a small percentage of the population. All the more when the same salt causes a reduction in BP in nearly as many people
"With higher or lower sodium intakes, blood pressures were reported to decrease, increase, and remain stable in participants within the same studies (13, 23, 24"
"They found that ≈18% of 163 participants with a high salt intake had blood pressure increases >5 mm Hg, whereas ≈15% had blood pressure decreases >5 mm Hg, with changes of <5 mm Hg in 66% of participants. "
"On average, systolic blood pressure in normotensive populations was lowered by ≈1 mm Hg when salt intake was reduced from 30% to 50%, depending on the trial."
Hence, "also BS"

Owen then states: "it is not the sodium which is dangerous per se ...it is the chloride in Sodium Chloride which should be managed."
Again, no evidence and plenty in the other direction.
Hence "See preceding." "Also BS"

Note:
It is most confusing when reading about this to find that "sodium restriction" and "salt restriction" are used interchangeably in most discussions. However since restriction of any or all of sodium, chloride, and/or the common compound of these called "salt" have minor positive to no to less minor negative effect, all of these statements are useless to worse,
hence "ALL BS".

Quotes from the paper I linked (as are all others not contained in the thread):
"Laboratories worldwide attempted to reproduce hypertension related to salt intake, but found that only an extreme manipulation of vertebrate physiology and nutrition would predictably produce elevated arterial pressure. In all of these investigative efforts, sodium chloride intakes were increased to amounts 10–20 times greater than those recommended for rodents, renal (excretory) mass was reduced to less than half, and mineralocorticoid hormones were administered in pharmacologic doses (13). Although these laboratory conditions do not reflect the circumstances extant in the human population, the reported effect of sodium on blood pressure in animal studies accomplished by dramatic physiologic manipulations was generally accepted and presumed to carry over to human blood pressure."
"Considering the battle that has long raged around this hypothesis, despite the deluge of data it has spawned over the past 50 y, it would seem that it is not science that is motivating the controversy but rather the entrenched opinions of the scientists who are involved in it (1)."
"Thus, although questions of the safety of low-sodium diets may be unresolved, there are now ≥6 studies, involving tens of thousands of high-risk individuals followed for many years, that failed to show any long-term cardiovascular benefit of a lower-sodium diet."

Hence ALL BS, of the stupidest kind, the dissemination of which I consider to be criminally stupid activity.

See "SEEKING CONSENSUS", in the linked paper.
The establishment consensus of all the "interested parties" who are STILL shoveling the anti salt BS is as follows:
"...that the results of the randomized, controlled trials of sodium reduction show only a minimal effect on blood pressure in the general population; and that only a minority of the US population is sensitive to the hypertensive effects of sodium. Independent statistics experts reported that the Intersalt analyses are inappropriate for arguing that a reduction in salt intake would reduce the rate of increase in blood pressure with age—the argument consistently used by the advocates of sodium chloride restriction. Furthermore, it was pointed out that mineral deficiency likely accounts for much of the sensitivity to sodium, and that a nutrient-complete diet, ie, the DASH diet, can produce far greater blood pressure improvements than can be achieved with sodium restriction. Finally, it was acknowledged that there may be adverse effects associated with reduced sodium intake and that there is little evidence that lowering sodium intake will improve cardiovascular outcomes. "

Note that mineral absorption is dependent on stomach acid, which is dependent on chloride, which you get from SALT.

Bottom line: Don't mess with your salt intake!

FRM
*****************
Posted 21 Mar 2012
at: viewforum.php?f=15

"How did they sneak in this deficiency? I guess it's not in fast food..."
Right, it gets processed out, leaving very low levels, even in home cooking if you boil stuff, or peel your potatoes. Note that a baked potato (900mg)with skin has about double the potassium of a banana (400mg) - I never peel potatoes! The banana as "best potassium source" myth was a marketing ploy by United Fruit.

The establishment view is that the AI is 4.7gm/day, but the average US intake is around 2gm/day. And we all know that the AI numbers are usually low.

Good basic on potassium, certainly not radical:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/m ... potassium/

"/what is so comical is the FDA prohibits selling potassium in larger than 99mg capsule or tablet forms but you can buy 100% potassium chloride powder at the grocery store an order of magnitude cheaper than the tablets !"
True; I just found a reference that gives the source of this nonsense. It is based on the fact that a concentrated lump of potassium salt causes locally very high levels of potassium, which causes tissue damage. Much as Vialis describes for the OZ "lump". So they came up with this restriction for all potassium supplements. I have little doubt that this was supported enthusiastically by the cardio cartel.

"A cell's membrane potential is maintained by ion pumps in the cell membrane, especially the sodium, potassium-ATPase pumps. These pumps use ATP (energy) to pump sodium out of the cell in exchange for potassium (diagram). Their activity has been estimated to account for 20%-40% of the resting energy expenditure in a typical adult. The large proportion of energy dedicated to maintaining sodium/potassium concentration gradients emphasizes the importance of this function in sustaining life."
(LPI link above)

These pumps are powered by magnesium, which leads to the situation that effective potassium deficiency (in cells) may also be caused by lack of magnesium. Without magnesium, NO potassium will get into cells, at which point you are dead.

Jacqui- After I came upon this paper, I searched everywhere for verification. As Vialis says. a lot seems to have disappeared from the internet, especially relative to BP control, but printed references in old books are plentiful: "Although physicians frequently give 10 grams or more of potassium chloride daily..." etc.
I think you have to take Vialis at his word for what he did and experienced, while maintaining a good deal of skepticism about his narrative otherwise.

bbtri- "A while back I bought a kilo of potassium bicarbonate, which is used on wine making, to use as an antacid rather than sodium bicarbonate. "
This tells me you have gastric distress of some sort. One cause is lazy intestines, caused commonly by lack of magnesium/potassium, as above. The other main cause is poor digestion due to insufficient stomach acid, which absolutely contraindicates the use of antacids. The increased potassium may well help you, but the decreased acid will certainly make things worse. You'd likely be better off adding potassium chloride to your diet, which would add chloride, the lack of which is one cause of low acid production - hypochlorhydria.

Have to agree with Van Carmen here, I aim for Vialis' 6gm/day or at least the AI of 4.7
Besides not peeling potatoes (900mg), I usually drink 8oz "Low Sodium" V8, not because it is low sodium, but because it is high potassium 820mg/8oz. Then I put more potassium chloride (No Salt) about 650mg+, plus normal salt, pepper, kosher dill pickle juice, hot sauce, Worcestershire sauce - all salty. And I put No Salt plus regular salt on pretty much everything I eat.
>>>Any sign of muscle cramps means cellular dehydration = lack of water, and or magnesium/potassium<<<

From wikipedia, consistent with all other references I have read:
"Orally, potassium chloride is toxic in excess; the LD50 is around 2.5 g/kg (meaning that a lethal dose for 50% of people weighing 75 kg (165 lb) is about 190 g (6.7 ounces)). Intravenously, this is reduced to just over 30 mg/kg,[14] but of more concern are its severe effects on the cardiac muscles: high doses can cause cardiac arrest and rapid death, thus the aforementioned use as the third and final drug delivered in the lethal injection process."

Note that the above are LD50, so 190gm orally will only kill half the people, and 22gm IV likewise.

"Oral doses greater than 18 grams taken at one time in individuals not accustomed to high intakes may lead to severe hyperkalemia, even in those with normal kidney function (4). "
(LPI link above)

And once and for all: IT IS NOT NOT NOT the CHLORIDE that kills, it is the POTASSIUM ions, but only in extreme dosage.

FRM

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