Bioavailability of Vitamin C

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davea0511
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#91  Post by davea0511 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:58 am

Would be nice to try and reproduce these results with a larger population than 1 (that 1 being Owen). The results might both explain what we are seeing here and what Owen has been experiencing.
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#92  Post by ofonorow » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:47 am

Thank you for contributing davea0511. I agree it would be nice to run these experiments on others, and I am looking for a Type 1 diabetic to rerun some of these studies (to eliminate the insulin response from the readings).

One other person's blood has been measured and showed the meter reacted to vitamin C. This is the topic where we first noticed that the Abbott Labs FreeStyle Lite seemed sensitive to ascorbate, See: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10603 Post 64 (page 5 - johnfromtexas) has the data from one fellow who used the Abbott meter to measure his blood during an intravenous vitamin C infusion. So we at least have one other person :D

In summary,

1. We created out baseline by measuring 10 grams of ascorbate (11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate) IV. We took measurements every minute (with 3 different Abbott meters) and the drip lasted 40 minutes.

2. I gulped 10 g of ascorbic acid (ultrafine powder) and showed that by minute 3, blood levels were higher than IV/C. (This leads to the question of how so much ascorbate reaches the blood stream so quickly? Still looking for a satisfactory answer).
I believe this finding is new and interesting because all the action was over by minute 30. Any measurements in the published journals that do not investigate minutes 3 thru 30 (probably none!) are missing the bioavailability of ascorbic acid.

3. We measured gulps of sodium ascorbate and dextrose - which much less bioavailability in the first 40 minutes. (Lower dextrose might be explained by insulin response. Bernstein notes his experience (Type 1) that taking a Dex4 (4 gram glucose) tablet has the same pattern - raises blood sugar from minute 3 to minute 40 (and the tablet has to dissolve!)

4. We demonstrated with another meter (TrueResult) that is apparently only sensitive to glucose, that what ever is causing the Abbott labs meter to rise, it is not glucose.

5. The IV baseline introduced ascorbate into my blood stream at the rate of 250 mg/minute. I ran an experiment taking 250 mg of ascorbic acid (ultrafine) powder every minute, to emulate the IV/C. Note that the curves were virtually identical with the IV/C baseline, out to 4000 mg !! This is our most important result, as it shows that 4 g Ascorbic Acid by mouth can enter the blood stream in the first 15 minutes or so - no different from IV. (This contradicts the established idea that there may be as much as a 50% loss at this dosage)

6. OxC seems to believe that somehow, we are showing a DHAA rise in the blood (Not necessarily an AA rise). I am hoping he will try to do the calibrations to demonstrate that DHAA can be measured with the Abbott meter. Ideally we would find a meter sensitive to DHAA and not to AA. (And if his theory is correct, what about the IV/C directly into the vein?)

7. Speaking of meters, Johnwen recommended the ultra low cost ReliON. It does not jive with the other meters for ordinary glucose, esp. at higher numbers. The test strips are cheap - except that I have to use twice as many for some reason. I keep getting errors on ReliOn that are never seen with the other two meters.

8. I just purchased the HemoCue "spectrograph" which Bernstein says is the most accurate home meter available. He has checked it with labs, and uses it to calibrate other glucose meters. However, it is pretty much a "one time" measure. I may be able to run it every 15 minutes or so, and I am interested in what happens regarding vitamin C levels.
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#93  Post by davea0511 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:13 pm

Thank so much for the summary. I previously understood that all the consumer meters gave false readings during IVC ... never knew oral doses would affect this too. This is huge ... so yea, validation would be great.

I would expect that Abbot Labs would want to be in on the know on these findings since megadosing C is undoubtedly taking place with more diabetics than yourself. They could at least facilitate some research that could shed some light.

Johnwen's theory of free (unused) ascorbate is very interesting as well ... does seem like it could explain it, but of course not conclusively. OxC might be right as well. Definitely need to run more tests, and prove that in vitro shouldn't be too hard. DHAA vs AA is another one that could be tested easily ... not like you all have lots of time to do this, but if I were Abbott labs I would want to try and help solve the problem.

A friend of mine with cancer is integrating IVC into his treatment, and wanted to use a glucose meter to determine how much vitamin C was still in his veins and for how long. I tried to find this information (vitamin C to Glucose reading equivalency) but no such luck. I told him I suspected it can vary widely from brand to brand (and of course a possible non-linear relationship as well), but had no idea it would vary so much.

Moertel's infamous vitamin C studies in the 80's might have blood levels of oral vitamin c since that is what he used.

If you could find a meter that is sensitive to vitamin C, and repeatable ... that would be awesome if it could detect absorption like Johnwen was theorizing. I was thinking how awesome it would be if we could do that for IVC patients, but if meters could be used to gauge blood levels from mere oral consumption ... that would be incredible.
The ascorbist-greeting:
"Score big, eh eh?", "Is yea.", "Excelente'."

(igpay-atinlay of: "Ascorbic?","Yes.","Excellent.")
Short-form: "Score?", "Score." [knuckle bump]

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#94  Post by OxC » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:51 am

davea0511 wrote:...if meters could be used to gauge blood levels from mere oral consumption ... that would be incredible.

A simple, home-use, plasma ascorbate meter is a highly desirable instrument. I am not aware of any such commercially available device.
Douglas Q. Kitt, founder of ReCverin LLC, sellers of stabilized dehydroascorbic acid solutions.

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#95  Post by davea0511 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:29 am

This is the paper that discusses correlating FSBG readings with blood ascorbates: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725640/

Lots of good info there ... though I also found it quite lacking (like nowhere do they say how much they administered to the patients).

The two meters they employ gave reproducible and linear results however they stated that: "FSBG method can estimate ascorbate concentrations > 50 mg/dl (or 2,800 μM)," Which is pretty high, about 10X higher than is possible with oral vitamin C.

They used 2 meters (Accu-Chek by Roche, and Onetouch Ultra 2 by Lifescan) and they correlated nicely with each other.
The ascorbist-greeting:
"Score big, eh eh?", "Is yea.", "Excelente'."

(igpay-atinlay of: "Ascorbic?","Yes.","Excellent.")
Short-form: "Score?", "Score." [knuckle bump]

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#96  Post by johnyascorbate » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:31 pm

Based off of Owen's work, is it fair to say oral ascorbic acid is more beneficial than sodium ascorbate? Ascorbic acid increases levels (briefly?) comparable to that of IVC while sodium ascorbate provides a sustained but low level of vitamin c in the blood. For fighting infections and even treating heart disease, wouldn't plain ascorbic acid be preferred?

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#97  Post by Montmorency » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:45 pm

johnyascorbate wrote:Based off of Owen's work, is it fair to say oral ascorbic acid is more beneficial than sodium ascorbate? Ascorbic acid increases levels (briefly?) comparable to that of IVC while sodium ascorbate provides a sustained but low level of vitamin c in the blood. For fighting infections and even treating heart disease, wouldn't plain ascorbic acid be preferred?


That was the impression I had formed. Last year, I was using home-made sodium ascorbate, and was unable to fight off what became a serious cold, even upping the dose in a big way.

Horror of horrors, I seem to be fighting one off now. I'd already gone to AA not sodium ascorbate, and I've upped the dose and frequency, so fingers crossed, but I wonder if I may already be too late. The last two colds I had were disastrous for various reasons which I won't bore people with.
Have also upped by D3.

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#98  Post by johnyascorbate » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:21 pm

Montmorency wrote: Last year, I was using home-made sodium ascorbate, and was unable to fight off what became a serious cold, even upping the dose in a big way.


Were you mixing baking soda and ascorbic acid? If one mixes baking soda and ascorbic acid, making a PH neutral form of vitamin c, won't that just turn it into sodium ascorbate-like, and take away the benefit of just using ascorbic acid?

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#99  Post by Montmorency » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:33 am

johnyascorbate wrote:
Montmorency wrote: Last year, I was using home-made sodium ascorbate, and was unable to fight off what became a serious cold, even upping the dose in a big way.


Were you mixing baking soda and ascorbic acid? If one mixes baking soda and ascorbic acid, making a PH neutral form of vitamin c, won't that just turn it into sodium ascorbate-like, and take away the benefit of just using ascorbic acid?


Not quite sure why you are calling it "sodium ascorbate-like", but yes, I was under the impression that I was making sodium ascorbate, and I thought this was a valid form of vitamin C. However, in various places on this forum I've picked up the idea that sodium ascorbate is not actually as effective as AA, so for the past few weeks, I've only been taking AA (as a powder dissolved in water).

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#100  Post by ofonorow » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:36 am

davea0511 wrote:Thank so much for the summary. I previously understood that all the consumer meters gave false readings during IVC ... never knew oral doses would affect this too. This is huge ... so yea, validation would be great.

I would expect that Abbot Labs would want to be in on the know on these findings since megadosing C is undoubtedly taking place with more diabetics than yourself. They could at least facilitate some research that could shed some light.



I would not want Abbott to try and adjust for AA if that is what we are indeed measuring. (The TrueResult meter apparently does not respond to Ascorbate.) There may be two meters in that paper you later reference (FSGM - Drisco et. al) that are sensitive and we will test them.

Also I don't believe diabetics, as a rule, mega dose vitamin C. They probably should, but after reading Richard K Bernstein's DIABETES SOLUTION, if he has many followers (and he should) then they are following his ridiculously low vitamin C recommendations.

It is my understanding that the reason for the Drisco work is that the Riordan clinic routinely measures blood ascorbate levels after an IV, and if zero - they continue the IV until there is a reading. Obviously, it is much less expensive to use a FSGM for these tests after and IV.


Johnwen's theory of free (unused) ascorbate is very interesting as well ... does seem like it could explain it, but of course not conclusively.

Remind me - what is this theory? What post at least? Thx

OxC might be right as well. Definitely need to run more tests, and prove that in vitro shouldn't be too hard. DHAA vs AA is another one that could be tested easily ... not like you all have lots of time to do this, but if I were Abbott labs I would want to try and help solve the problem.



I am afraid Abbott may try to adjust to make their meter more accurate for glucose.

If OxC is right - you mean about DHAA entering the blood stream - then why do we have virtually identical results from measuring IV/C (at a rate of 250 mg/minute) and oral ascorbic acid (at the rate of 250 mg/minute) out to 15 minutes or about 4,000 mgs?



A friend of mine with cancer is integrating IVC into his treatment, and wanted to use a glucose meter to determine how much vitamin C was still in his veins and for how long. I tried to find this information (vitamin C to Glucose reading equivalency) but no such luck. I told him I suspected it can vary widely from brand to brand (and of course a possible non-linear relationship as well), but had no idea it would vary so much.

The beauty of the Abbott Free Style lite is the minute (small) amount of blood required for the measurement. And remember the 30 minute half life (Hickey/Roberts - Ascorbate: The Science of Vitamin C (Dynamic Flow theory). Whether it be insulin or kidney function, (or tissue absorption - but in my case, my tissues should be fairly wells saturated) you can see this drop in blood levels over a short time, (and we'd go out farther in time once we know we are measuring ascorbate).

If your friend starts using the Abbott - we would appreciate seeing the data. (Also remember the Hickey/Roberts claim that vitamin C is a "weak" cancer fighter, and that you should augment with Alpha Lipoic Acid (or vitamin K3). Recent research suggests that Maitake Mushroom D'Fraction (from Mushroom wisdom) together with vitamin C is deadly to cancer cells: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23341484

To answer another post - yes I think the measurements of the blood from taking the 10 grams of ascorbic acid illustrate how and why it makes sense to use AA when fighting colds or the flu. I suspect that the same amount of ascorbate will reach the blood taking sodium ascorbate, but that the release takes more time (as the sodium ascorbate travels down the GI tract). Also from the Hickey studies, we think we know that liposomal vitamin C can take 2 to 3 hours before blood levels peak.)


Moertel's infamous vitamin C studies in the 80's might have blood levels of oral vitamin c since that is what he used.

If you could find a meter that is sensitive to vitamin C, and repeatable ... that would be awesome if it could detect absorption like Johnwen was theorizing. I was thinking how awesome it would be if we could do that for IVC patients, but if meters could be used to gauge blood levels from mere oral consumption ... that would be incredible.


I think we are almost there. Per summary we have evidence that the rise in apparent blood glucose is not because of an unexpected release of glucose (True Result Meter). I have plans to confirm using the HemoCue spectagraph. I will take a measurement around minutes 10-12 after ingesting 10,000 mg AA - that will tell us exactly what the glucose is while the Abbott meter is off the charts. (This is trusting Bernstein that the HemoCue is the most accurate glucose meter for home use available on the market when the book was written.)

Re:"detect absorption like johnwen was theorizing"... What post #? I still do not have a clear picture in my mind how AA (or glucose for that mater) reaches the blood stream in as little as 3 minutes. Not only reaches, but goes through the liver, heart and reaches the fingers! (Maybe it is the mucous membranes in the mouth as one drinks?)
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#101  Post by Johnwen » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:58 am

This thread Post # 78
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#102  Post by Montmorency » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:55 pm

ofonorow wrote:
davea0511 wrote: (Maybe it is the mucous membranes in the mouth as one drinks?)[/color][/b]


That was my thought actually, similarly to some meds or vitamins that one takes sublingually or against the cheek.
(My methylcobalamin (B12) tablets are supposed to be taken like that. Whether it actually makes a difference, I don't know).

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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#103  Post by ofonorow » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:35 pm

Absorption of vitamin C from the human buccal cavity
F. Sadoogh-Abasiana1 and D. F. Evereda1

a1 Department of Biochemistry, Chelsea College (University of London), Manresa Road, London SW3 6LX

Abstract

1. Ascorbic acid was absorbed across the mucosa of the human mounth.

2. Omission of sodium ions from the medium decreased the absorption of ascorbic acid.

3. The presence of D-glucose, or 3-O-methyl-D-glucose, increased the absorption of ascorbic acid but D-fructose had little effect and D-mannitol had no effect.

4. Calcium ions also increased ascorbic acid absorption probably by a secondary effect on Na+ fluxes.

5. Buccal mucosa was also premeable to dehydroascorbic acid and D-isoascorbic. acid

(Received June 02 1978)

(Accepted January 16 1979)


http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=840828&fileId=S0007114579000052#

Idea for an experiment. Holding (and not swallowing) the AA in the mouth and measuring.
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#104  Post by Johnwen » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:20 pm

Johnwen Wrote:
Progesterone which rises during pregnancy cause the stomach to slow down, which is caused by reduced peristalsis and increased PH! This allows the V-C which is acidic to lower the stomach PH further which in turn increases the amount of bicarbonate released by the pancreas into the duodenum which is where the V-C is moved to from the stomach and absorption of V-C begins! Sans the minimal buccal absorption which only accounts for less then 5% of the total intake.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12046

Post #4

Probably more like 2-3% if that!

Owen Wrote;
Idea for an experiment. Holding (and not swallowing) the AA in the mouth and measuring.


Good Luck with that!

Do you know what ascorbic acid does to Hydroxyapatite??
You sure you want to do that experiment???
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Re: Bioavailability of Vitamin C

Post Number:#105  Post by Montmorency » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:57 am

Johnwen wrote:Do you know what ascorbic acid does to Hydroxyapatite??
You sure you want to do that experiment???


No, but I googled on the last 5 words of the 1st of your lines I have quoted and found this, in google books (which won't allow me to quote text, so I had to use the snipping tool):
...
OK, so I can't upload the image without putting it on the web, so I will just reference the book:

Periodontal Diseases: New Insights for the Healthcare Professional: 2013

See chapter 6, Therapies and Treatments.
Page 60.

Suggests Hydroxyapatite would actually protect the enamel from up to 90% ascorbic acid (although I don't know how "90%" is actually defined.

So not sure it would be such a bad thing. Perhaps if done excessively it might be though, or using too strong a solution.

Haven't read all that much of it, but that chapter seems to be looking fairly favourably on ascorbic acid in the context of periodontal disease/plaque.

EDIT: OK, so I later realised that was a patent application and not a scholarly research tome. The submitter would obviously have a vested interest in saying that it's all good. Kind of interesting, nevertheless.

I found the actual patent (or a very similar one, in text form here):

http://www.google.com/patents/US20150037265

I randomly found another source that claimed that a neutral sodium ascorbate solution would be better if one's main interest was in dental/periodontal hygiene. However, I'm not sure it was a particularly authoritative source, just another alternative health site, and I didn't have the patience/persistence to investigate it.


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