Looking for advice to reduce heart meds

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pigeonguy

Looking for advice to reduce heart meds

Post Number:#1  Post by pigeonguy » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:19 am

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the good info here.


Here's my story and I'm sticking to it. A little long ---- sorry.

I had a triple by-pass on Feb 23, 2007 and am now in cardio rehab (30 minutes aerobic workout and 30 minutes strength training M/W/F) making good progress (doubled workload since start a month ago). Was 284 on Super Bowl weekend when I got a sharp pain in my arm after experincing shortness of breath and pain in chest upon walking from car into work for several weeks. Am now at 224 aiming for 185 by end of year --- well I can dream.

Pre-op on Atkins diet:

Total Cholesterol - 175
HDL - 45
LDL - 115
Triglyceride - 75

After op “theyâ€

pigeonguy

More info

Post Number:#2  Post by pigeonguy » Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:14 pm

I guess I should add some more info.

I found that my BT was at 21 G.

I am presently taking 2 tsp of Heart Technology while adding 3G of C in the morning and the evening.

Additionally, I take another 6G C + 2.5G L-lysine + 1G L-proline at approx. lunchtime.

So I am taking 18 G of C daily.

Based on info I gleaned here I am going to distribute the additional 6G to space between the other doses.

About 4-5 weeks after surgery I started to get chest pain (sometimes felt more like a burning sensation) about 5 minutes into exercise. Was worried that it was angina returning but wasn't sure that it wasn't just lungs as I remembered the feeling from my running days back in college to try to help my asthma out.

Turns out it was GI (I have a hiatal hernia) as a nurse at rehab gave me a Tums when it started and it dissapeared immediately.

I've stopped taking the Zocor several times but always chicken out and start taking it again. :( As an engineer I know intellectually that the Pauling method seems more plausible and fits the facts better than the conventional wisdom but like Jon over in another topic --- it is hard to make the leap. I sure don't want to go through another by-pass or even a stent if I can avoid it.

Thanks -- pigeonguy

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Doing the right thing

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:52 am

I like the C, lysine and proline approach! Keep us informed.

I don't like either the aspirin or plavix - ask your doctor about the 2 or more recent trials that were stopped because of higher death rates in the plavix group. Let us know what he says, and why he still prescribes it.
.
I've stopped taking the Zocor several times but always chicken out and start taking it again. As an engineer I know intellectually that the Pauling method seems more plausible and fits the facts better than the conventional wisdom but like Jon over in another topic --- it is hard to make the leap. I sure don't want to go through another by-pass or even a stent if I can avoid it.


How do you feel taking it and not taking it? (Most people feel worse taking it.)

In my opinion, which contrary to the trumped up science that pushes the statin drugs on doctors, you will end up much better without this poison, er, drug. If you worry about cholesterol (you shouldn't, your body produces more to deal with the underlying disease) Vitamin C will do the same thing, without side effects.

I'll respond in more detail later this evening.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

pigeonguy

Post Number:#4  Post by pigeonguy » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:39 am

Hola,

I like the C, lysine and proline approach! Keep us informed.


I was wondering if the HT was enough or if with that 475 nmol/L for Lp(a) I should go with Ascobine-9 or something else stronger? Anyone have the formula and the molecular weight of Lp(a) to change it back to mg/dL? - I've been looking on the web but haven't found either yet. Been a long time since Chemistry 101. :D

I don't like either the aspirin or plavix - ask your doctor about the 2 or more recent trials that were stopped because of higher death rates in the plavix group. Let us know what he says, and why he still prescribes it.


Yes, I don't like the Plavix either but no one told me how long I'm supposed to take it. Aspirin I used to eat by the jar back in the 70s and 80s for sinus headaches from allergies. Scary when thinking back on that. Obviously I have/had a cast iron stomach although I have GERD now. :cry:

How do you feel taking it and not taking it? (Most people feel worse taking it.)

In my opinion, which contrary to the trumped up science that pushes the statin drugs on doctors, you will end up much better without this poison, er, drug. If you worry about cholesterol (you shouldn't, your body produces more to deal with the underlying disease) Vitamin C will do the same thing, without side effects.


After reading everything about what the research really says --- and telling my WD (witch doctor) that --- he comes back with, "yeah, but it has anti-inflammatory features that help protect caps already in place." Didn't have a rejoinder for that at the ready. I think the fish oil helps with that though, no?

I was experiencing no difference whether taking the 20mg or not. I started taking 40 mg (yeah, I know I'm a chickensh*t :) ) and yesterday (3 days on dosage) afternoon I started getting pains in my chest muscles and later in evening my biceps felt like they were on fire. So it may just be coincidence or delayed rebuilding from weight training the day before at rehab ... but as an engineer I usually don't believe in coincidences.

Although I really don't know how long it takes for titration levels of statins to change in the system so I admit it could be coincidence.

So didn't take 40 mg dose last night and feel good today. I guess the only way to tell if it really was Zocor would be to initiate intake again after a few days and see if the cycle repeats. One of the guys I work with had a stent (he is in his 40s) and is on Vytorin. He has more faith in doctors and believes that they actually know what they are doing. Having experience with doctors since I was 1 year old when I developed asthma disabused me of that notion. :D

Lost a couple more pounds so still making progress towards my goal.

Thanks Owen,

J.Lilinoe

Post Number:#5  Post by J.Lilinoe » Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:51 am

pigeonguy wrote:I was experiencing no difference whether taking the 20mg or not. I started taking 40 mg (yeah, I know I'm a chickensh*t :) ) and yesterday (3 days on dosage) afternoon I started getting pains in my chest muscles and later in evening my biceps felt like they were on fire. So it may just be coincidence or delayed rebuilding from weight training the day before at rehab ... but as an engineer I usually don't believe in coincidences.

Although I really don't know how long it takes for titration levels of statins to change in the system so I admit it could be coincidence.

So didn't take 40 mg dose last night and feel good today. I guess the only way to tell if it really was Zocor would be to initiate intake again after a few days and see if the cycle repeats.


pigeonguy,
you might also want to check out the spacedoc forum and talk to the hundreds of folks suffering from ongoing muscle weakness and pain after stopping their statin drugs. Pretty scary to me. There are other less toxic was to eliminate inflammation but taking statin drugs is the wrong way to do it.

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I'd like to know

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:58 am

After reading everything about what the research really says --- and telling my WD (witch doctor) that --- he comes back with, "yeah, but it has anti-inflammatory features that help protect caps already in place." Didn't have a rejoinder for that at the ready. I think the fish oil helps with that though, no?


The rejoinder is that the number one "anti inflamatory" is ascorbic acid ! Vitamin C!!

You could then recommend Dr. Levy's book (STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER) and point out that Dr. Levy's theory is that inflammation is the body trying to bring vitamin C to the problem area. (Vitamin C is scarce in most of us humans, but white blood cells have special pumps which keep them well supplied with ascorbate. The inflammatory process attracts white blood cells, etc.).
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

Ralph Lotz
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the number one "anti inflamatory" is ascorbic acid

Post Number:#7  Post by Ralph Lotz » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:15 pm

The message one should get from Stop America's #1 Killer is that it may not be possible to consume enough vitamin C either orally or IV to stop inflammation. Ascorbate tied up fighting inflammation is not available to synthesize collagen, although it can be regenerated with glutathione and lipoic acid. Vitamin C used to make collagen is forever used up in the collagen synthesis process. ( see pages 89-93, HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER)

Modern medicine is a numbers game designed to justify the need for prescribing drugs.
Lowering total cholesterol below 160 increases the risk of strokes.
The fact is, the people with the highest cholesterol levels live the longest.
For cholesterol-phobes, The easiest way to reduce cholesterol levels is to eliminate sugar and high fructose cornsyrup from the diet. This research is cited on pages 56-58, HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER. Fructose is a major building block for cholesterol and increases triglycerides. Sucrose, which is metabolized to glucose and fructose is also a major contributor to inflammation and immune dysfunction.

Since vitamin C alone cannot totally reduce inflammation, it is prudent to take steps to eliminate the most probable causes and take additional supplements so there is enough ascorbate left over to synthesize collagen to keep one from literally falling apart.

The primary causes of inflammation in the western diet is the over consumption of omega 6 polyunsaturated fats, too much sugar exacerbated by ascorbemia, omega 3, lysine, vitamin D3 and iodine deficincies amongst others.

Nearly 50 years of the "Oiling of America" has blasted us with the most atherogenic "food" in the diet, common corn, soy, safflower and other vegetable oils.

The supplements that yield big benefits for a small investment are ascorbic acid, cod liver oil, vitamin D, iodine, magnesium, quercetin and EGCG from green tea.

Vegetables such as broccoli and cabbage increase Phase 2 enzymes that may reduce inflammation up to 36 hours or more.

Inflammation is the mother of all degenerative diseases.
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

pigeonguy

Post Number:#8  Post by pigeonguy » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:33 pm

The rejoinder is that the number one "anti inflamatory" is ascorbic acid ! Vitamin C!!

You could then recommend Dr. Levy's book (STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER) and point out that Dr. Levy's theory is that inflammation is the body trying to bring vitamin C to the problem area. (Vitamin C is scarce in most of us humans, but white blood cells have special pumps which keep them well supplied with ascorbate. The inflammatory process attracts white blood cells, etc.).


Thanks Owen.

Turns out it wasn't statin. Had a 103 degree temp when I got home from work so must have caught something that I heard is going around Sierra Vista.

pigeonguy

Post Number:#9  Post by pigeonguy » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:15 pm

The message one should get from Stop America's #1 Killer is that it may not be possible to consume enough vitamin C either orally or IV to stop inflammation. Ascorbate tied up fighting inflammation is not available to synthesize collagen, although it can be regenerated with glutathione and lipoic acid. Vitamin C used to make collagen is forever used up in the collagen synthesis process. ( see pages 89-93, HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER)


Thanks for the tips Ralph.

I do have some inflamation issues. Homocysteine was 13.1 and CRP was 8.5.

Have Gout which doesn't bother me very often unless I indulge in several nights of rich food --- e.g., duck, lobster, shrimp. That seldom happens.

Right Sciatic nerve is acting up again but trying to ignore. Just saw something that Olive oil works similar to ibuprofen --- similar compounds with out the NSAID side effects.

One herniated and a bulging disc also.

Plus the virus I just caught and am trying to get rid of with 2 G C/hr

Will re-read those sections of the book.

Thanks again.

Seymore Spectacles

great post

Post Number:#10  Post by Seymore Spectacles » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:08 pm

Excellent post, Ralph!

pigeonguy,

I wonder if higher levels of some of the b-vitamins might be in order. In particular, perhaps the coenzyme forms of vitamins B6, B12 and Folic Acid might help to lower your homocysteine levels. Also, perhaps upping your intake of choline through diet or supplementation may be of use.

Oops. I just found out that "Folbix" is probably Foltx ( http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/foltx.htm ). Perhaps this is adequate for your B6, B12 and Folic Acid needs. Still, the choline may be worth considering. Also, TMG (betaine) may be a valuable tool (see link below).

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w99/vascular.html

More info. on homocysteine:

http://www.healthnotes.info/qs_db/healt ... ID=1029002

Congrats on the weight loss! I know that losing weight can help lower CRP among other healthful effects. So, keep up the good work!

pigeonguy

Post Number:#11  Post by pigeonguy » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:27 pm

...Also, perhaps upping your intake of choline through diet or supplementation may be of use. ...
Also, betaine may be a valuable tool (see link below). ... Congrats on the weight loss! I know that losing weight can help lower CRP among other healthful effects. So, keep up the good work!


Thanks Seymour

Will check on the choline and betaine.

lost 63 pounds since SuperBowl Weekend. Started on Atkins but cardiologist said that wasn't the diet for me - even though numbers were good - old school guy and I don't really have much faith in him. So relented and went to Ornish's no-fat but have since moved to low fat. Am contemplating moving to South Beach as I've heard good things about it and Agatston should know what he's talking about although he is a proponent of statins. Hey, no one is perfect. :wink:

I stopped the statins Fri and will remain off them depending on C and the other antioxidants to help out.

Although temp is still at 100, I just checked and BP is back to 98/62 with HR of 72. HR not down in 60's but I can live with the 72 until this clears up.

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How much vitamin C are you now taking?

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:48 am

Have Gout which doesn't bother me very often unless I indulge in several nights of rich food --- e.g., duck, lobster, shrimp. That seldom happens


If you have gout - that is a clue that you are not getting enough vitamin C.

Went back through this post, but did not see how much vitamin C you are taking.

My (old) story is that I used to have gout (actually diagnosed prior to 1983) and I believed what medicine told me were the causes. However, after reading Pauling's book - and going on 18 g vitamin C, plus all his other recommendations (including vitamins E, A and the B complex) my gout (and hayfever) completely cleared up - never to return, no matter what I eat.

I don't know if it was the 18,000 mg of C, or the complete protocol, but following Pauling's advice had a profound effect on me.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

J.Lilinoe

Post Number:#13  Post by J.Lilinoe » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:53 pm

I stopped the statins Fri and will remain off them depending on C and the other antioxidants to help out.



Congrats on stopping the statins for now. You will feel a lot better for doing that.

pigeonguy

Post Number:#14  Post by pigeonguy » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:31 pm

If you have gout - that is a clue that you are not getting enough vitamin C.

Went back through this post, but did not see how much vitamin C you are taking.

My (old) story is that I used to have gout (actually diagnosed prior to 1983) and I believed what medicine told me were the causes. However, after reading Pauling's book - and going on 18 g vitamin C, plus all his other recommendations (including vitamins E, A and the B complex) my gout (and hayfever) completely cleared up - never to return, no matter what I eat.

I don't know if it was the 18,000 mg of C, or the complete protocol, but following Pauling's advice had a profound effect on me.


I found my BTL which was 21G/day and backed off to between 16-18G/day.

As I said, it very seldom bothers me (max maybe once a year if that much) but figured it would be a factor in the inflammation arena.

That's the reason for my asking about anything else I should be taking, e.g., the E product, etc. I am taking B complex, Folbic but it uses cyanocolabimine (sp?).

Seymore Spectacles

Post Number:#15  Post by Seymore Spectacles » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:57 pm

pigeonguy wrote:
I am taking B complex, Folbic but it uses cyanocolabimine (sp?).


Pigeonguy,

The cyanocobalamin form is the most common and least expensive form (of B12). There's some evidence to suggest that the coenzyme form of B12 may be superior. This form is known as methylcobalamin and often comes in the form of a sublingual lozenge.

There are also coenzyme forms of B6 and Folic Acid which may be more effective than the standard forms that are contained in Foltx. I seem to recall a pharmaceutical product that contained all three (of the coenzyme B vitamins) but I don't recall the name of it. BTW, they (the coenzyme B's) are all available through health food stores but your insurance wouldn't cover them and so the expense might be greater (assuming that your insurance covers the expense for the Foltx).


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