Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

This is where the best forum discussions are preserved for posterity.

Moderator: ofonorow

gofanu
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:33 pm
Location: Titusville PA
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#31  Post by gofanu » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:55 am

pamojja
That vitamin K review is splendid. Don't have time to study it now, but at a quick look, K1 is a whole lot more useful than earlier sources said. And extremely cheap. I am taking 100mcg "because that is all the body can use" = not true. Change soonish! I started taking K only two years ago with this infection, since it was obvious by manipulation that it was eating/had eaten bone in my skull. BTW, this started as a dental infection (NOT cured by repeated antibiotics!).

I have spent approximately $1600 since Jan 09 until last month, and have several months of some stuff and a couple years of others in reserve, because of how quantities work out. That was starting from almost no in-stock, and is for me and my daughter. She is off at school and is slacking a bit, but not much, and since she is fundamentally healthy being raised by these methods, her doses are relatively low. I am correcting lifelong (65+ now) disasters and I have been vigorously attacking a long term chronic infection and extreme stress for two years (with stupendous success!), so my overall expense is higher than baseline. Average overall for the two of us. over 3.5 yr is $228/yr/person, less the in-stock = about $0.60/day. It does not include the Lugol's I managed to buy before the DEA/FDA caused the cost and aggro to go through the roof; if you do not have that problem, Lugol's is cheaper than the container it comes in. Even with these problems, it is only pennies for "normal" doses, and quarters for my "extreme" treatment. We have used $35 = one liter of the Lugol's I bought two years before my wife died Dec08, so that also includes her and the critters since about fall 2006, but the greatest amount used is my two year treatment. Everything except the Lugol's comes from Puritan.com. I calculated a long time ago that I could cut the US health care cost in half in a year for $0.50/person/day easily and more with more time for even less money.

V-C as ascorbic acid crystals is $.025/gm, so my current 20gm/day is $0.50 of my present personal total.
Puritan does not carry sodium ascorbate, but I only used that for my critters, and three of four have died of broken hearts since wife died and daughter went off to school. Or, their karmic appointed tasks were done, as they were the ladies' familiars.

My Schedule as it is more or less by importance, but if I don't think it is important
I don't bother (current or any emergency high dose in parentheses) if in paren is emergency requirement!:
C - ascorbic acid Puritan 3162 15gm (20)
Mg - Mag oxide Pur 5537 500mg min 750 usual (1000)
Lugol's 5% 4drop- 25mg I, (20drop-100mg)
Selenium 200mcg Pur 3204 2x/day (4)
B50 Pur 585 1x (2+)
Pantothenic acid B5 Pur 6060 1x 500 mg (usual 4x/day but up to 20% of C= 5gm )
Niacinamide 500mg Pur 730 1x (2-4x)
Folic acid Pur 2845 2x (4x)
B6 Pur 650 1x (2-4x)
B12 Pur 1383 1x
PABA Pur 2920 1x (2x)

A10,000/D400 Pur 4993 4x (8x)
D3 Pur 17618 4x (8x)
E Pur 543 2x (4x)
K1 Pur 3070 1x
K2 Pur 29680 1x
Choline bitartrate Pur 700 1x
Co Q10 Pur 15593 1x
ALA Pur 17967 1x
Zn Pur 2063 1x

Cal-Mag-Zinc Pur 4293 (as needed for pain or damaged tissue repair (muscle tears etc), with C, Panto, B6 - my sole pain treatment for the past 11 years, rarely needed now, great sleeping pill if you need that, but you will not after a while on the above!

+ Salt NaCl to taste, KCl also freely, especially if hot.sweating/thirsty.
Enough liquid to urinate near clear often.
No sugar (I use about 10 lb/year, and it mostly goes to the hummingbirds)
Don't peel vegetables or fruit
Lots of potatoes
No low fat anything permitted even near my house!
liberal - Whole milk, yogurt, butter, olive oil, grape seed oil
Aged Cheese of all sorts - V-K in spades and it is good!
Beef, pork, sausages, bacon, salami
yogurt, wheat germ
I have given up on liver, because I cannot get any that is not extremely dubious in appearance - formerly a staple.
Nutritional yeast is always good, but I have not used any in years - it was what I started with in 1968, along with V-A and ascorbic acid.
Dozens of eggs (protein and cholin source)

Took about 30 gm C and 2 gm panto one day (up from my then usual 15gm/day & 500 mg) for some thing daughter brought home from school. Feet got really warm a half hour later. Unpleasant pain and fatigue (for about a year, after walking uphill briskly) in legs disappeared forever. Realized later it had a name - PAD, and was now long gone.

If I read pamojja's schedule at all correctly, its fair but deficient in some things, and the price appalls, the complexity and worry astonishes, and it sounds like it doesn't work too well either. Now, I have a headache and need some drugs! (Another 5gm C, 4 drops Lugol's, and a Cal/Mag/Zinc, and a cup of coffee)

I suggest that everybody forget about poorly (mis) understood things like "half life" and attend to their food - actual food that real people have been eating for 10,000 years. The people Weston Price observed neither knew nor cared about any of that. The Afghan tribal leaders who gave guests the calf's eyeballs did so because they recognized that they were the most valuable part of the meal, and the Indians who saved stupid white men with fish heads, did not know about retinol/retinyl/beta carotene/etc and theoretical reasons why these things mught kill you. The Peruvian Indians who traveled annually to the sea to gather kelp and dry it knew it was essential and life saving, so much so that they carried it along with coca in little bags around their necks at all times.

FRM

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#32  Post by pamojja » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:10 pm

Thanks a lot for such a thorough response, I really appreciate. It
will take me some time to fully comprehend. At the same time sorry
to hear of the loss of your beloved 4 years ago.

It appears there are some similarities to my life: having abused my
health with 25 packet-years, and as a vegetarian, traveling and living
more than a decade in poor countries with a staple of not much more
than tortillas and frijolles, or rice and beans. Only for my crumbled
teeth (only 12 left) I don't feel responsible for, since that started
already in earliest childhood. And then for 2 years a very stressful
job too - I quited that just before the full onset of my PAD..

gofanu wrote:If I read pamojja's schedule at all correctly, its fair but
deficient in some things, and the price appalls, the complexity and
worry astonishes, and it sounds like it doesn't work too well either.
Now, I have a headache and need some drugs! (Another 5gm C, 4
drops Lugol's, and a Cal/Mag/Zinc, and a cup of coffee)


Lol. Your response made me laugh (nevertheless, sorry for giving a
headache ;.) Not that I would not have enough to laugh about
myself: Turning from a complete any-pill-avoider to let supplement
pills and powders dominate my whole life, lol. But the results aren't
as bad as they seem from abstract lab numbers, quite the contrary.
I've been learning a lot during the past 3 years, and be it that the
more I learn the less I know for sure.. 8-O

But please feel free for any further suggestions.

I started skeptical and only slowly increased to orthomolecular
doses, took me about half a year till I crossed the 6 g/day vit C
range, where the walking distance, limited by intermittent
claudication, first raised to above 1 km. Before that, despite
immediately quiting smoking and regular walking exercises, it only
decreased further down to merely 300 meter of slow walking. The
second year it increased to 2 hours at a steady pace (not uphill
though) and the ability to run for very short distances again. This
year down to 1 hours walking again. Though that may still seem
disabled, which it is, it nevertheless means all the difference of
being able to work and live, some.

Vitamin C stopped a for 2 years persistent skin rush on the spot, and
above 150 mg CoQ10 my angina-like chest pains, always due to
increased physical or mental stress, said goodbye too. The next spring
my old hay-fever was also gone (a flare this year again caused me to
increase vitamin C substantially again).

The high prices I pay are confounded by the difficulty to have almost
everything imported from the states: higher shipping rates additional
to €10 handling fee for each packet, 10% tax, or 20% for shipments
with a value more than €150. So it turned out that LEF's European
distributor at special sales is the most reasonable - though still
costly - source for me. Overall avoiding complications with European
customs, which once wanted to fine me about €250 for a bottle of
NOW TMG worth $10, because they classified it as an illegal import of
prescription meds. That's in appeal already for 2 years now...

gofanu wrote:I suggest that everybody forget about poorly (mis)
understood things like "half life" and attend to their food - actual
food that real people have been eating for 10,000 years.


That's the big challenge for me now. And because I just made a
major progress there I'm hopefully again: I didn't understood for long
why a severe magnesium deficiency with serious regular muscle
cramps developed only after starting with high dose vitamin C and
supplementing seemingly sufficient Mg for the first time in my life.
Makjinetor was the first to mentioned a study of worsening Mg
deficiency in mice with high ascorbic acid intake. I still didn't
really believed, then..
However, gradually increasing various more bioavailable forms of
magnesium to above 1 g/day did let me get rid of the most
painful forms of muscle cramps and its regularity, though still
occurring from time to time.

2 month ago I found a locally available magnesium mineral water
with 1030 mg of Mg per liter, and drinking this not one cramp
occurred again, my really worrying blood glucose development -
despite low-carbing - took a very surprising turn, and had the first
nocturnal emission since years :-) (never though before that such
a trivial thing would become to mean so much to me..). And
considering in how many essential functions magnesium is involved
I guess I'm in for many additional nice surprises now - with
something as simple as a mineral water!

gofanu wrote:That vitamin K review is splendid. Don't have time
to study it now, but at a quick look, K1 is a whole lot more useful
than earlier sources said. And extremely cheap. I am taking 100mcg
"because that is all the body can use" = not true. Change soonish!


Courtesy to the members of the TrackYourPlaque Forum of Dr. William Davis.

skyorbit
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#33  Post by skyorbit » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:04 pm

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9025

This thread said that MK-7 has a near 100% absorption rate.

It also said the max k1 the body can absorb a day is about 300 mcg. Several of the other study's I've read also says that after a while k1 levels in the blood plateau (including the PDF http://www.medicine.wisc.edu/~williams/ ... w_2008.pdf pamojja showed me) so it seems to me there's plenty of evidence that k1 has significant diminishing returns while k2 really doesn't. Or at least none that we've detected so far.

Tracy

skyorbit
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#34  Post by skyorbit » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:37 am

pamojja wrote:
Vitamin K2 menatetrenone (MK-4) -- 15 mg - 90 Capsules - $34.99 (each, for 4 or more bottles)

Vitamin K2 Complex w/ K1 - 90 Capsules - $17.56 (on special sale now: buy 2 get 3 - but already sold out at the moment :-(
500 mcg of MK-7 and MK-4 each, 1 mg of K1


I went ahead and got one of each of these. Don't have money to buy 4 bottles of the MK-4 so just got 1, and got the 2+1 on the other.

I figure I can take one of each a day and get my levels up.

Tracy

skyorbit
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#35  Post by skyorbit » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:45 am

PS. Where do you guys get megadose Vitamin A?

VanCanada

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#36  Post by VanCanada » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:03 am

skyorbit wrote:PS. Where do you guys get megadose Vitamin A?

Lamb liver.ImageImageImageImage

Chicken liver (from my memory) is about one-third or one-fourth the Vitamin A content of lamb liver by weight, but easier for most people to find.

See the Weston A. Price Foundation website for more information on one of the best health foods most people are avoiding.

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#37  Post by pamojja » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:37 pm

majkinetor wrote:K1 has bioavailability of 300 mcg / day. Its not very useful to supplement it, especially if you eat a lot plant foods.

Hmm.., if dietary K1 is absorbed only 10%, but supplemented between 60-80% I don't understand how one could conclude foods would be superiour and not useful to supplement..?

skyorbit wrote:This thread said that MK-7 has a near 100% absorption rate.

It also said the max k1 the body can absorb a day is about 300 mcg. Several of the other study's I've read also says that after a while k1 levels in the blood plateau (including the PDF http://www.medicine.wisc.edu/~williams/ ... w_2008.pdf pamojja showed me) so it seems to me there's plenty of evidence that k1 has significant diminishing returns while k2 really doesn't. Or at least none that we've detected so far.
skyorbit wrote:PS. Where do you guys get megadose Vitamin A?

I would like to hear on which ground it was claimed that maximally only 300 mcg vitamin K1 is absorbed, which would contradict studies where higher doses of supplemental K1 showed very distinct beneficial effects.

But I guess we both need still some megadose vitamin A. Because I seem to be blind where above linked to pdf suggests plateauing levels would indicate diminishing returns? And you maybe because above Gofanu gave even the product number of the Vitamin A product from PuritansPride he uses. ;-)

Joking aside, I used the convenient dropper by LEF every few days, which provided 25.000 IU vitamin A per drop. That's discontinued, and replaced with a 10.000 IU per drop product now.

Actually I just started to regularly use cod liver (not the oil - but the organ). But haven't decided yet which source to believe its vitamin A content:

Cod, liver, canned

Content pr. 100 g Unit Content

saturated fatty acids g 11.6
monounsaturated fatty acids g 25.6
polyunsaturated fatty acids g 14.1

Vitamin A retinol µg 5100
Vitamin D µg 100
Dorschleber Konserve in Öl

Inhaltsstoff Menge Einheit

Ges. Fettsäuren 17.469 g
einfach unges. Fettsäuren 42.384 g
mehrf. unges. Fettsäuren 14.535 g

Vitamin A Retinol 13.815 mg
Vitamin D 180.5 µg

Quite a difference between 16.998 and 58.224 IU vitamin A for a 100 g can of cod liver.

skyorbit wrote:
pamojja wrote:Vitamin K2 Complex w/ K1 - 90 Capsules - $17.56 (on special sale now: buy 2 get 3 - but already sold out at the moment :-(
500 mcg of MK-7 and MK-4 each, 1 mg of K1

I went ahead and got one of each of these.

Thanks for letting me know. So I could order before it goes out of stock again. (which seem to have happened a few times in the past)

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#38  Post by pamojja » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:21 pm

gofanu wrote:pamojja V-C as ascorbic acid crystals is $.025/gm, so my current 20gm/day is $0.50 of my present personal total.

Luckily I can get ascorbic acid crystals in 100 gm bottles for €1.95 in local supermarkets too, which amounts to about the same cents.

For better comparability I added the pure amounts of each nutrient from you list:

Code: Select all

15 g Ascorbic acid      C - ascorbic acid Puritan 3162 15gm (20)
750 mg Magnesium         Mg - Mag oxide Pur 5537 500mg min 750 usual (1000)
25 mg Iodine               Lugol's 5% 4drop- 25mg I, (20drop-100mg)
400 mcg Selenium         Selenium 200mcg Pur 3204 2x/day (4)

50 mg B1, B2, B7, B8      B50 Pur 585 1x (2+)
550 mg Pantothenic Acid   Pantothenic acid B5 Pur 6060 1x 500 mg (usual 4x/day but up to 20% of C= 5gm )
550 mg Niacinamide      Niacinamide 500mg Pur 730 1x (2-4x)
2000 mcg Folic Acid      Folic acid Pur 2845 2x (4x)
150 mg Pyridoxine         B6 Pur 650 1x (2-4x)
1050 mcg Cyanocobalamin   B12 Pur 1383 1x
550 mg PABA               PABA Pur 2920 1x (2x)

40.000 IU A            A10.000/D400 Pur 4993 4x (8x)
9.600 IU D3            D3 Pur 17618 4x (8x)
800 IU E               E Pur 543 2x (4x)
100 mcg K1            K1 Pur 3070 1x
50 mcg K2               K2 Pur 29680 1x
310 mg Choline         Choline bitartrate Pur 700 1x
100 mg Ubiquinone      Co Q10 Pur 15593 1x
600 mg ALA               ALA Pur 17967 1x
50 mg Zinc               Zn Pur 2063 1x

1,000 mg Ca, 400 mg Mg, 25 mg Zc      Cal-Mag-Zinc Pur 4293 (as needed for pain or damaged tissue repair (muscle tears etc), with C, Panto, B6 - my sole pain treatment for the past 11 years, rarely needed now, great sleeping pill if you need that, but you will not after a while on the above!

Beside you're giving priority to most essential nutrients (while I got so much side-tracked of what I heart what might help for certain indications in some cases, and therefore ended up with so much more complexity) the biggest difference seems your higher Retinol intake. Though I already tried to increase Retinol (as with everything, I always increase doses slowly), a sharp drop of my 25(OH)D3 let me decrease again. Actually now I'm trying to get Retinol intake higher again without lowering vitamin D3 serum levels - by raising D3 as much as it may take.

The other thing which stands out is that you take Niacinamide instead of Niacin (nicotinic acid). And quite some PABA - would you like to explain why you emphasize these twos?

Though you rarely take anymore, just for the case I would strongly dis-advise such high doses of supplemental calcium taken regularily, especially with arterial calcification and high D3.

gofanu wrote:Took about 30 gm C and 2 gm panto one day (up from my then usual 15gm/day & 500 mg) for some thing daughter brought home from school. Feet got really warm a half hour later. Unpleasant pain and fatigue (for about a year, after walking uphill briskly) in legs disappeared forever. Realized later it had a name - PAD, and was now long gone.


Astonishing experience you've got in just one day!?!. Though I'm now at 30 gm of ascorbic acid for 1 month beside 2 gm vitamin B5 already for a couple of months - but without any additional benefit whatsoever against my PAD. A excellent example of how different nutritional needs may be. Probably very much influenced by secondary.. deficiencies, like magnesium in my case.
Last edited by pamojja on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

gofanu
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:33 pm
Location: Titusville PA
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#39  Post by gofanu » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:26 pm

I will comment in line. We both have a few errors re amounts
I notice we both <sometimes> combine the amounts of the specific ingredient with amounts in other things. I will continue that and try to be consistent. "&" sign after total to indicate this has been done, for anyone trying to follow this
This may turn into a textbook!
It might be good if "somebody" could and/or would separate this stuff out into a useful and durable archive of such information.
(I am trying to comment in a different colour, but I do not understand this system. Which is too stupid to display the colour real time. ( ) as backup)

gofanu wrote:
pamojja V-C as ascorbic acid crystals is $.025/gm, so my current 20gm/day is $0.50 of my present personal total.

Luckily I can get ascorbic acid crystals in 100 gm bottles for €1.95 in local supermarkets too, which amounts to about the same cents

(Good. I have a running-in-background personal program to develop an "emergency sources list" for when we can no longer buy anything we want or need. V-C is pretty easy, some herbs and spruce trees!)

For better comparability I added the pure amounts of each nutrient from you list:
Code:
15 g Ascorbic acid C - ascorbic acid Puritan 3162 15gm (20)
750 (&) mg Magnesium Mg - Mag oxide Pur 5537 500mg min 750 usual (1000)
25 mg Iodine Lugol's 5% 4drop- 25mg I, (to 20drop-125mg)
(I as I2 + KI)
200 (x2 = 400) mcg Selenium Selenium 200mcg Pur 3204 2x/day (4)

50 mg B1, B2, B7, B8 B50 Pur 585 1x (2+)
550 mg Pantothenic Acid Pantothenic acid B5 Pur 6060 1x 500 mg (usual 4x/day but up to 20% of C= 5gm )
550 mg Niacinamide Niacinamide 500mg Pur 730 1x (2-4x)
2000 mcg Folic Acid Folic acid Pur 2845 2x (4x)
150 mg Pyridoxine B6 Pur 650 1x (2-4x)
1050 mcg Cyanocobalamin B12 Pur 1383 1x
550 mg PABA PABA Pur 2920 1x (2x)
(note all of the B group are &; daily amounts include a contribution from the B50multi)

40.000 IU A A10.000/D400 Pur 4993 4x (8x)
9.600 (&)IU D3 D3 Pur 17618 4x (8x)
(also includes 1600 from A&D 4993)
400 (x2=800)IU E E Pur 543 2x (4x)
100 mcg K1 K1 Pur 3070 1x
50 mcg K2 K2 Pur 29680 1x
310 (&)mg Choline Choline bitartrate Pur 700 1x
(Label is 260mg + 50 from multi 585)
100 mg Ubiquinone Co Q10 Pur 15593 1x
600 mg ALA ALA Pur 17967 1x
50 mg Zinc Zn Pur 2063 1x
(I do not take the Zn all the time, as I am a little concerned about my Cu-Zn balance, as I have replaced all the dissolved copper pipes in recent years with plastic. Am thinking of putting a copper section in my kitchen feed line. Haven't because I have to rebuild the entire kitchen - and the roof comes first!)

1,000 mg Ca, 400 mg Mg, 25 mg Zc Cal-Mag-Zinc Pur 4293 (as needed for pain or damaged tissue repair (muscle tears etc), with C, Panto, B6 - my sole pain treatment for the past 11 years, rarely needed now, great sleeping pill if you need that, but you will not after a while on the above!
("1,000 mg Ca, 400 mg Mg, 25 mg Zn" - these are the "dose" amounts off the label, BUT it takes 3 tabs for that dose. Individual tabs are 333 mg Ca, 133 mg Mg, 8 mg Zn. The Ca amounts required are often claimed to be 2x the Mg, hence the tab proportions, but this is wrong/backwards, as Abraham so eloquently showed. It should at least be 1Ca - 2 Mg. So my usual intake of max two of these with my usual intake of 500mg Mg, gives 666Ca - 766 Mg, and if any pain is apparent I add 500Mg, plus any additional CaMgZn as needed)

Beside you're giving priority to most essential nutrients (while I got so much side-tracked of what I heart what might help for certain indications in some cases, and therefore ended up with so much more complexity) AND COST!!!
(Which was my basic point with you AND virtually everybody else in the "Nutrition Nuts" camp. I am paid in full myself! The esoteric hormones, enzymes, and other "Majic Potions" also introduce problems by possibly bypassing body control mechanisms. Further, these things are a major and valid arguing point for the evil forces of anti nutrition - as in who the hell can spend E15/day (or much more) on supplements?. That is over 80% of my entire present income.)

the biggest difference seems your higher Retinol intake. Though I already tried to increase Retinol (as with everything, I always increase doses slowly), a sharp drop of my 25(OH)D3 let me decrease again. Actually now I'm trying to get Retinol intake higher again without lowering vitamin D3 serum levels - by raising D3 as much as it may take.
(Actually, as I have detailed previously, my retinol intake was for years until recently at 80,000IU to prevent symptoms I was aware of. I have been able to reduce it to 40,000 since drastically increasing my iodine/selenium, which spares E & A by preventing/correcting lipid peroxidation - a good thing I think. Again, I buy no tests, all is based on observed symptoms and logic - 100 % success rate on the logic so far. It is possible that your D3 measured drop is a result of either better utilization or better control of D3 synthesis/use due to A making adrenal/hormone/cholesterol control work better - as will iodine/selenium. Vitamin A alone is involved in the regulation of 1/6 of the entire proteome - the total production of proteins AND ALL their interactions.)
Also see para below beginning ""Makjinetor was the first to ..."

The other thing which stands out is that you take Niacinamide instead of Niacin (nicotinic acid). And quite some PABA - would you like to explain why you emphasize these twos?
All my B vitamin stuff is a 45 year attempt to stay with Adelle Davis' original proportions, mostly developed from her reading and consultation with Roger Williams, Selye, Hoffer, and other pioneers. I have posted these before, multiple times. And, as I have also stated, !!there IS NO GOOD MULTI B!! on the market. Adelle had it made, but the people/.company who made it are long gone. We could never afford it, so we figured out a close equivalent. This is now a rote thing with me, and I forget some of it, but when I periodically ask myself why I am taking x,y,z, I spend a few days and invariably come up with the same thing. Also previously stated, I have yet to find something Adelle was actually wrong about, though I find some of her recommendations unnecessarily conservative for serious work, and there are newly found stuff like the selenium and V-K research of recent years.
B vitamins are all enzymes or coenzymes, or precursors/substrates of such. No process takes place without many, maybe hundreds of B mediated reactions. One fail step is a disaster, though many things have redundant backup systems - again all dependent on (possibly different) B vitamins.
Bruce Ames has shown us that B vitamin related functions in particular are subject to SNP =single nucleotide polymorphisms, which may make it expedient to increase some b vitamin or other by a couple of orders of magnitude for some SNP - which may affect as many as 30% of a population. Which puts us right back at my starting point of "you must go by symptom" not formula.
Since B vitamins are water soluble, they are generally safe in much higher than needed dosage, although it is possible for too much of one to create effective deficiencies of another, hence the attempt to keep some balance, but it is not generally very fussy.
My reading of the endless arguments re niacin/niacinamide are mostly based on Hoffer's practice, which led me (and my wife) to decide it was not in general much different, and we were/am not concerned about the things which do appear to differentiate. In the event, my wife and daughter both hated the "flush". to the point of refusing to take it long enough to get past it, though I rather like it. I was outvoted, so niacinamide it is, and I just have not changed back since she departed this life..
PABA does a bunch, and was formerly used up to 20gm/day for all sorts of stuff. It got a bad rap because it invalidates sulfanilomide antibiotics, so was restricted and vilifed.
Your body does not care what "they " say, but it knows what it wants. This is one of the things which escapes me in detail just now, but I have repeatedly found justification for treating it much like pantothenic acid. The 500 mg is a rough approximation of Adelle's proportions, given the B50 baseline.)

Though you rarely take anymore, just for the case I would strongly dis-advise such high doses of supplemental calcium taken regularily, especially with arterial calcification and high D3.
(No. As noted above your amounts were off. More importantly. the distribution/deposition of serum calcium is primarily determined by magnesium, followed by iodine, V-K, and numerous other minor factors. It either goes to where it is needed, ie bones and teeth and cell walls, or it goes into soft tissues as arterial calcification, or joints as osteoarthritis, or kidneys as CaOxalate stones, or as bone spurs etc, or as painful then fatal muscle calcification, Not to discuss my pet theory - bone headedness!
The presence of free serum calcium was believed by Price to be essential to the formation and healing of bones and teeth, and finally the repair of any damaged tissue. My personal experience has borne this out. The same free calcium is the effective pain killer, which experiment is what led me to the confirmation of the healing aspects. Since cellular energy production is 100% dependent on Magnesium as well, the energy for repair, and the energy to put up with this world any longer, also are totally mag dependent - depression is very often a mag deficiency - been there, as have numerous friends I have counseled, It ALL depends on Magnesium. And, sugar and alcohol waste magnesium, in addition to ascorbate.)

"Makjinetor was the first to mentioned a study of worsening Mg deficiency in mice with high ascorbic acid intake. I still didn't really believed, then..
However, gradually increasing various more bioavailable forms of magnesium to above 1 g/day did let me get rid of the most painful forms of muscle cramps and its regularity, though still occurring from time to time."
(I also have experienced this. I believe that increased general efficiency due to ascorbate or any other rate limiting nutrient increases energy production and use, increasing magnesium (and other) requirements. Adelle gave this as a general principle, particularly relating to healthy active, growing children. Daughter developed a twist in the leg at around age 2-3, very quickly. Quack said he would refer us to an orthopedic specialist, who "will put her in a leg brace for a year or more" Ain't happenin'! Wife disappeared in our books and emerged to say "it is a vitamin A deficiency". She was already far past the "maximum allowable intake" but the High A/D cod liver oil was doubled and the leg straightened over a period of a month. No more problem, but she has taken 30,000IU ever since. Now she is almost 21, 5'10" and looks like a Model/Athlete. Her first word was "bath", and her second was "More MEAT!!"
"more bioavailable forms" is only the result of poor digestion/absorption of minerals due to B & iodine & salt deficiencies. I take only MgO, always with C, and it is sensibly absorbed in 20 minutes. But great find on the water!)

gofanu wrote:
Took about 30 gm C and 2 gm panto one day (up from my then usual 15gm/day & 500 mg) for some thing daughter brought home from school. Feet got really warm a half hour later. Unpleasant pain and fatigue (for about a year, after walking uphill briskly) in legs disappeared forever. Realized later it had a name - PAD, and was now long gone.
(this was based on a background of years of attention to these matters, so i was likely at a much better start point than you were, The PAD started in a state of extreme stress, and decreasing finance, and I was not turning on the heat in my shop, where my computer resided. I was spending 16 hours/day minimum, sitting stationary in freezing temps, trying to work and stay warm. It was after a winter of that that the condition appeared in the spring when I tried to walk. Not really bad, but clear, and it lasted a couple of years. I finally figured out the cause, so moved more and added clothing, but the condition stayed at lower level. The C jolt was a half hour thing\g, and I could not maintain the 30gm, for bowel tolerance. I now believe, as one not prone to absolute belief, that "bowel tolerance" is altered by many things besides V-C, like magnesium, and digestive problems, and such as the persistent low level toxic drainage I had from the infection, which also started at that time, in those conditions. Certainly my bowels got a lot happier when I cured the infection with iodine/selenium. This also increased (greatly) the warmth of hands and feet, so peripheral blood flow is obviously way up, which is likely curative of PAD as well. Remarkably, I had a faint relapse of coolish feet last fall as the weather started getting cold and I started sitting again. I found the choline which I had never taken because of cost, but had gotten for my wife in her illness. Adelle said you needed a lot of choline, but we never had the cash. One capsule and a half hour later my feet were again sensibly toasty, and have been since. So you might try high dose choline with your PAD. And a LOT of eggs, the primary source of dietary choline by far. People have been given bizarre diets as 24 egg yolks a day for a year, without cholesterol increase = Lecithin = choline.

For you, I suggest you read anything of Kilmer McCully on plaque, and JTA Ely on diabetes, and add in all I have said.)

Astonishing experience you've got in just one day!?!. Though I'm now at 30 gm of ascorbic acid for 1 month beside 2 gm vitamin B5 already for a couple of months - but without any additional benefit whatsoever against my PAD. A excellent example of how different nutritional needs may be. Probably very much influenced by secondary.. deficiencies, like magnesium in my case.

"Quite a difference between 16.998 and 58.224 IU vitamin A for a 100 g can of cod liver."
(that is a hell of a lot of canned fish liver in any case to get 40-80.000IU A!
But I wish I could get fish livers, or any liver I could trust)

"abused my health with 25 packet-years,"
(Don't worry about it or feel guilty. It is a politico-religious scam. Such small bad effects as smoking actually has are easily explained and more easily compensated. And nobody wants to discuss the positive effects, since it treads heavily on the realm of priest and medical practitioner alike, transferring the power to the people. You might examine your tobacco source though - cancer rates are proportional to the amount of sugar used in the different tobacco curing schemes popular in different countries - more sugar = more cancer. UK worst, US next, Europe widely variable by region. I am likely around 80-100 packet-years and climbing)

"as a vegetarian"
(I do not know the basis of your practice, and I have no desire to argue or convert, but: I do not believe it is practically possible to be a "healthy vegetarian", except maybe for the very rich and freely mobile, haven't met one. Weston Price WAS a vegetarian, and was seriously looking for a healthy vegetarian society, and he never found one. There is a good piece re the "ethics" of vegetarianism on WPF.org.
I believe it is promoted as "virtue" when it is in fact a relict fundamentally religious concept of sacrifice arising from poverty stricken societies with little food and little land, usually by the events of oppression and pillage, incompetence, or bad fortune. See Cambodian Monk.)

Now I am tired and another night behind schedule!

FRM

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#40  Post by pamojja » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:17 pm

Thanks. Not much time now respond now, but just a short explanation for formating text in posts here.

For applying any of the formatting buttons above the text edit field (where you enter the text) you have to 'select' the particular text first, that is: keep the left mouse button pushed from the exact beginning to the end of the text which you want to format differently, and where you release the left mouse button again. Which gives you a visible background color for your 'selected text'. All you have to do now is clicking the desired formating button above, or the text-color to the right of the edit field. Though that doesn't give you the color real time but will look like:

Code: Select all

[b]bold[/b]
[i]italic[/i]
[u]underline[/u]
[color=#0000FF]blue[/color]
[quote]It might be good if "somebody" could and/or would separate this stuff out into a useful and durable archive of such information.
(I am trying to comment in a different colour, but I do not understand this system. Which is too stupid to display the colour real time. ( ) as backup)[/quote]


And if you click the 'preview' button below the edit field you could check if a mistake has sneaked in, above examples would appear as:

bold
italic
underline
blue
It might be good if "somebody" could and/or would separate this stuff out into a useful and durable archive of such information.
(I am trying to comment in a different colour, but I do not understand this system. Which is too stupid to display the colour real time. ( ) as backup)

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#41  Post by pamojja » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:34 pm

gofanu wrote:We both have a few errors re amounts

Thanks for correcting (edited the amount of selenium and vit E in my post). I now also see the other difference in our approaches is with 2 nutrients you consider especially important in relation to their vitamin A sparing effects: selenium (where I oversaw you're actually getting 400 mcg/day) and iodine, where your intake for both is about double than mine.

gofanu wrote:(Actually, as I have detailed previously, my retinol intake was for years until recently at 80,000IU to prevent symptoms I was aware of. I have been able to reduce it to 40,000 since drastically increasing my iodine/selenium, which spares E & A by preventing/correcting lipid peroxidation - a good thing I think. Again, I buy no tests, all is based on observed symptoms and logic - 100 % success rate on the logic so far. It is possible that your D3 measured drop is a result of either better utilization or better control of D3 synthesis/use due to A making adrenal/hormone/cholesterol control work better - as will iodine/selenium. Vitamin A alone is involved in the regulation of 1/6 of the entire proteome - the total production of proteins AND ALL their interactions.)

25(OH)D3 and glucose test strips are the only tests I pay out of my pocket. Since you don't see any doctors, I assume you didn't test anything recently?

gofanu wrote:I was outvoted, so niacinamide it is, and I just have not changed back

Without any labs I take it for granted that you don't have any regards of any of the lipid numbers. Not that I really would, I'm just curious to learn what they could really mean, if anything, and what altering them with nutritional means (therefore my preference for nicotinic acid) would bring..

gofanu wrote:I have a running-in-background personal program to develop an "emergency sources list" for when we can no longer buy anything we want or need. V-C is pretty easy, some herbs and spruce trees!

Otherwise I'm surprised how similar we think. Specially with world-trade at this time resting on such fragile premises - which could be easily disrupted for quite some time - my first line of defense is to stock up on everything for supplies lasting preferable one year (which I sort of have to do anyway, because LEF has only once a year everything at reduced prices). But even with something as easily available as ascorbic acid, which now almost exclusively comes from China, it would amount to a catastrophe if it weren't available for an extended period of time. Imagine how the only other source from Scotland would have it's price shoot up in such a case!

Though I doubt I really could replace my many grams of vitamin C with herbs, I'm very interested to hear more details of such possibly essential replacements.

gofanu wrote:Now I am tired and another night behind schedule!

But please take the time it needs, it's certainly not that urgent for neglecting a healthy sleeping schedule ;-)

gofanu wrote:The Ca amounts required are often claimed to be 2x the Mg, hence the tab proportions, but this is wrong/backwards, as Abraham so eloquently showed. It should at least be 1Ca - 2 Mg.

Came to the same conclusion through my experience at which level of Mg intake compared to Ca my condition improved.

pamojja wrote:Beside you're giving priority to most essential nutrients (while I got so much side-tracked of what I heart what might help for certain indications in some cases, and therefore ended up with so much more complexity)
gofanu wrote:AND COST!!!

Sure. But not being able to work and live a decent live doesn't really seems an option worth saving any money either. It is however not without irony, that exactly those doctors who would shovel me up with incredible expensive procedures use this additional argument (the main being this silly about long-term harm) against my supplementation..

gofanu wrote:(Which was my basic point with you AND virtually everybody else in the "Nutrition Nuts" camp. I am paid in full myself! The esoteric hormones, enzymes, and other "Majic Potions" also introduce problems by possibly bypassing body control mechanisms. Further, these things are a major and valid arguing point for the evil forces of anti nutrition - as in who the hell can spend E15/day (or much more) on supplements?. That is over 80% of my entire present income.)

The high-cost argument could be easily countered with comparing life-long supplementation at €15/day (which without doubt I'll bring down substantially with growing understanding, and such generous help as yours) with the actual cost of stenting to tax-payers. Minus the of possible risks and prevalent restenosis rates.

If you argue as an devils advocate for aspirin prescribers, re: The esoteric hormones, enzymes, and other "Majic Potions" also introduce problems by possibly bypassing body control mechanisms.
Just compare the handful reported toxic mortalities of vitamin, mineral, amino acid and herbal users during the last 25 years - to that of about 60 each year from aspirin alone!

Not to deny that there couldn't be problems with high dose nutrients too - best example my magnesium deficiency from high dose vitamin C. These complications with nutrients (to which I count to a certain extent bio-identical hormones, also consumed by our paleolithic fore-fathers long ago) are just ridiculously tiny compared to the possible complications by adding just 1 baby aspirin to my mix.

gofanu wrote:Which puts us right back at my starting point of "you must go by symptom" not formula.
Since B vitamins are water soluble, they are generally safe in much higher than needed dosage, although it is possible for too much of one to create effective deficiencies of another, hence the attempt to keep some balance, but it is not generally very fussy.

Yes and no. The therapeutic dosage range of nutrients is really huge (compared to the often very tiny of prescription meds) and virtually without any toxicity, But with (at the outset) not so obvious individual nutritional needs - multiplied with it's multiples interactions - often only becoming apparent after going in the wrong direction for a long long time, I wished I were a fortune teller.

If a certain dose of nutrients helps with a particular condition on the spot it's obvious. But if that doesn't happens, as for me and most essential nutrients, or only after a certain time (as with vitamin C and a certain dose in my case) it is really fussy.

gofanu wrote:PABA does a bunch, and was formerly used up to 20gm/day for all sorts of stuff. ... The 500 mg is a rough approximation of Adelle's proportions, given the B50 baseline.)
For you, I suggest you read anything of Kilmer McCully on plaque, and JTA Ely on diabetes, and add in all I have said.)

Guess the best would be to read Adelle Davis first to understand your background better. Any title in particular to recommend pertaining to this topic?

Myself could find only little sketchy information about benefits of PABA, but things like fertility or better utilization of vitamin B5 sound good enough to give it a better trial (damn, whenever I enter discussions about simplifying supplementation - I end up with more instead of less.. ;-)

However, with the emphasis on choline too, why you think inositol didn't receive more attention?

Enough for now ;-)

Please take your time comfortable enough to respond.

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#42  Post by pamojja » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:37 am

gofanu wrote:..I found the choline which I had never taken because of cost, but had gotten for my wife in her illness. Adelle said you needed a lot of choline, but we never had the cash. One capsule and a half hour later my feet were again sensibly toasty, and have been since. So you might try high dose choline with your PAD. And a LOT of eggs, the primary source of dietary choline by far. People have been given bizarre diets as 24 egg yolks a day for a year, without cholesterol increase = Lecithin = choline.

Didn't find the price of choline bitartrate particularly prohibiting.

Actually added higher dose choline together with betaine about 1 year ago to bring my homocysteine a bid down, which it did. But choline seems also of great value because it helps with fatty liver:

What to do – and not do – about high cholesterol

Chris Masterjohn: .. So, the first thing that we need to understand is that there are good reasons and bad reasons for increases in cholesterol in the blood. So, one of the reasons that cholesterol can increase is if we’re clearing lipids from the liver. Let’s say, for example, that a person has nonalcoholic fatty liver disease and they start resolving it. Well, one of the key problems with fatty liver disease is that the lipids get stuck in the liver and they’re not being released into the bloodstream, so once you start clearing that, part of what may happen is you may get an increase in triglycerides, and you may get an increase in cholesterol in the blood. And that is a good thing because nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is not only very dangerous for the liver, but it’s actually a much stronger predictor of cardiovascular disease risk. And this is a currently emerging field, but there is one study that was done in Japanese people, and they just looked at a number of a Japanese population that was apparently healthy, and they looked to see if they had fatty liver or not, and then they followed them over a number of years. And they found that fatty liver disease increased the risk of cardiovascular disease by over fivefold; whereas, LDL cholesterol predicted it somewhat, but the study wasn’t even statistically powerful enough to make that connection to LDL cholesterol statistically significant. And then when they incorporated LDL cholesterol and metabolic syndrome in a statistical analysis, they found that LDL cholesterol and metabolic syndrome, neither of those were even significant, and nonalcoholic fatty liver disease raised the risk of cardiovascular disease by about threefold or fourfold for men and about fourteenfold for women. So, if we’re clearing lipids from the liver, then this is a good thing.

Chris Kresser: Yeah, that’s a pretty phenomenal statistic there, especially in light of some of the estimates that I’ve seen that up to one in three Americans have nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, which would really go a ways to explaining the cardiovascular disease epidemic.

Chris Masterjohn: Absolutely.

Chris Kresser: So, you’ve written about this, Chris, what you were just talking about in terms of switching to a Primal/Paleo type of diet and the lipids going up because the fatty liver is sort of unpacking itself. And you’ve written about this extensively that choline is one of the nutrients that makes that possible, so can you say a little bit more about that?

Chris Masterjohn: Sure. So, the best sources of choline are liver and egg yolks. There are also a number of other nutrients such as folate, for example, that reduces the need for choline. So, it you’re increasing your intake of liver, egg yolks, and leafy green vegetables — you know, a general increase in nutrient density in your diet — it’s very likely that if you do have fatty liver you are going to contribute to its resolution, because choline is the key nutrient that is needed to package the fats in the liver and export them into the bloodstream so they can be metabolized by other tissues...

Which explains my greatly fluctuation lipid lab results, despite enough vit C or niacin. Because a bid more than decade ago my liver has certainly been damaged by 7 malarias, the last time with liver pains after consumption of fatty foods or coffee. Though that improved with LIV.52 (an ayurvedic) at that time, this article also mentioned how easily fatty liver is usually overseen.

However, gradually had to decrease choline supplementation again, because I mentioned some tension in my jaw, or even clenching of teeth, which eased with reduced doses. Choline seems to accumulate, because could I avoid such tension by decreasing below 490 mg/day of choline a year ago, now that limit is already reduced to 390 mg.

skyorbit
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#43  Post by skyorbit » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:25 pm

http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Vitamin ... f=pd_ybh_1

I found 25,000 IU Vitamin A for really cheep on Amazon.

gofanu
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:33 pm
Location: Titusville PA
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#44  Post by gofanu » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:56 pm

Equivalent price from Puritan is 2.76 cents by my latest order (1.13 cent for 10,000A/400D), and you also get 1000IU D3 with 25,000A.
Pamoija - more soon.

FRM

pamojja
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Contact:

Re: Reversing tooth decay and cavities naturally

Post Number:#45  Post by pamojja » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:30 am

Hmm.., a trial of 3 days on 80.000 IU vitamin A/day gave me a really bad running nose, additionally some itching on a spot between fingers (similar to a occurrence of psoriasis about 14 years ago). Both ceased after stopping the high dose Retinol.


Return to “Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests