2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#1  Post by johnhoperobinson » Tue May 13, 2014 6:07 am

Hello Owen/All
I am new to the forum.
Having had 2 x bypass operations I made a decision that Pauling Therapy was going to be my way forward.
I am 50 now and had my 1st bypass at age 32 in 1995.
my 2nd bypass was 3 + years ago in 2010.
My cholesterol naturally has been as high as total 440 !
Statins ( 60mg atorvastatin) have lowered it to around 180'ish. ( LDL 130 ).
getting a UK doctor to even know what LP(a) is has been a trauma in itself.
I have now asked for a test to be done but I suspect I will have it done myself.
I have for 3 weeks been taking 1 sachet of Livon Labs Vit C. plus 10g of ascorbic acid vit.c. , 8g Lysine , 6g Proline.
I also take aspirin and 1500 mg of slow release niacin.
My headaches brought on by exertion have subsided but my angina pain which was still evident to a level after my last operation is still there on exertion.
The whole Pauling Heart Disease process makes such utter sense to me and I hope to clear my arteries out for good !
I was aware years ago about it but just followed Robert Kowalski's advice on lowering Cholesterol and then I found Owen's and Dr Levy's books.
I would really welcome any further advice from Owen or anyone on this great forum and any info. on whether I am on the right track and anything else I can do?

Thanks so much

John

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#2  Post by davids1 » Tue May 13, 2014 10:05 am

Hi John,

My only advice, with the possible exception of keeping the drugs to the minimum you are comfortable with, would be to increase your ascorbic acid intake daily to as high as you are comfortable with, e.g. [from my view] to a Bowel Tolerance dose level. If you are unfamiliar with the term [Bowel Tolerance], John, the first ten plus paragraphs of this article are highly recommended: http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.ortho ... itrate.htm

Welcome to the forum, John, and best wishes in your aspiration for, and journey to, better health,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Tue May 13, 2014 10:18 am


Thank you David - but chronic scurvy requires a specific dosage, and usually does not require the extraordinary dosages that infections and toxins do. A person with heart disease should shoot for at least 10,000 mg, and there is nothing wrong with bowel tolerance, but if the person were like my father - with a bowel tolerance of 200 milligrams - then they need to find another way to obtain more vitamin C - e.g. liposomal.

John, I like your Pauling protocol, although the lysine and proline may be a little bit high. But don't lower to the more standard 5-6 grams lysine (1-2 grams proline) until you have evidence that the protocol is working.

As far as the continued pain, do you have stents?

Reconsidering - I would limit proline to 1 gram because you have had 2 bypasses - albeit the last 3 years ago. We believe the proline lowers Lp(a) over time, all the way to zero, where vitamin C and lysine won't. Since Lp(a) is probably involved with keeping bypassed veins strong, it may not be wise to load up on proline after a bypass, because you should get all the Pauling Therapy benefit from Vitamin C and Lysine - and your body can make its own proline.

If you have read Dr. Levy's book STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER, you may understand why in advanced disease, vitamin C therapy may take some time to work - as the arterial narrowing starts to resemble a callous.

A good adjunct is to add some vitamin K to the protocol, particularly K2. LEF.ORG has couple of good products, including Super-K. Adding vitamin K may reduce calcium deposits in the arteries that vitamin C and lysine won't. Here is the article from Life Extension that first alerted yours truly to the value of vitamin K for arterial health:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/feb00-report.html
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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#4  Post by johnhoperobinson » Tue May 13, 2014 2:21 pm

Thankyou Owen & David
I'm very grateful for your advice indeed.
Owen, I don't have stents as 'they' considered another barbaric bypass was necessary.
I couldn't even get 'them' to tell me the level of blockages. All I got was 'they are shot' and the only clear one is the LIMA which was used in the original bypass 20 years ago !
I did manage to get a CD of my angiogram after demanding it as I went private for the last operation.
Would there be experts on the forum who could decipher it?
Thanks for the info on Vit K.
I will get some asap.
I would like to come off statins soon also as the muscle pain etc.., is awful and if LP(a) is the culprit then it would seem that they are next to useless if they do not affect LP(a) levels?
I will reread Dr Levy's book on arterial narrowing and the time it takes to clear them as I maybe a 'trifle' optimistic that 3 weeks would do so !!!
Still I'm on the path now and I'm glad I am.

thanks guys

john

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#5  Post by davids1 » Tue May 13, 2014 4:05 pm

Hi Owen,
Owen wrote:Thank you David - but chronic scurvy requires a specific dosage, and usually does not require the extraordinary dosages that infections and toxins do. A person with heart disease should shoot for at least 10,000 mg, and there is nothing wrong with bowel tolerance, but if the person were like my father - with a bowel tolerance of 200 milligrams - then they need to find another way to obtain more vitamin C - e.g. liposomal.
Your view surprises [and puzzles] me. How can you [or anyone else] ever say, i.e. "specifically," how much ascorbate is required by any particular individual to "cure" any particular malady, e.g. heart disease? How can a person ever know [for sure] what toxic stresses they are under [at any particular time]? In other words, as just one example, if they have five root canals, can anyone be confident that ten grams of ascorbic acid is going to be enough to solve their CVD? What about any ongoing [currently latent] infections, and/or any other possible [currently latent] maladies, e.g. cancer, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum, in their body, i.e. would those maladies not be "robbing" [at least some of] the ascorbate that the arteries require to prevent and/or cure any possible CVD?

My point [in always recommending a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid] is that, short of a [bodily] fluid test, a person would never know how much they need [at any particular time]. Do you feel comfortable, Owen, in separating out CVD from any-and/or-all of the other many health maladies that require ascorbate? Is the body not all one big organism, in which all organs and systems are "demanding" their share of the available resources? How, i.e. by what means, is that [ascorbate] need to be met, "equitably" [among bodily organs and systems] and adequately, without the method of Bowel Tolerance [dosage determination]?

As one example, in the/this case of John, how can you/we/anyone know that "10 grams" is going to be enough? You've often brought up the case of the scientist with CVD. With the addition of 5 grams of lysine, his 5 grams of ascorbic acid [daily] was apparently sufficient to reverse his CVD. For another it might be 10 grams. For another, 15 grams [etc., etc., etc.]. Aren't we all different? For me, that is the beauty and the "magic" of Cathcart's Bowel Tolerance "discovery," i.e. it is a "tailor-made" method that can work for every single individual, i.e. and their individual health circumstances.

In cases like your father [which I would say do not have a healthy/clean enough GI tract], if they are unwilling to go through the time and effort/inconvenience of raising their Bowel Tolerance, i.e. GI tract health/cleanliness [and I can certainly understand why they might not be willing], then yes [I agree], "another way" would have to found, e.g. IV and/or liposomal. But, of course, with both of those modalities, they would simply have to guess at how much they really need for optimal health. Even with a fluid test, who, i.e. what "authority," is to decide what is an optimal reading, i.e. in/from the "test?"

I would really like to understand your thinking upon this, Owen. Perhaps there is something I am missing or not understanding.

Best regards,

David

P.S. The thought just now occurs to me: Perhaps your thinking is that the idea of "Bowel Tolerance" is just too scary/overwhelming for the average person to think about/contemplate/face. In which case, the best thing to do is just recommend a certain ["specific"] amount for them to "shoot for." If that is your thinking, perhaps you are correct. I would not know. I've just got to keep advocating what [to/for me] is the sheer "magic" [and simplicity] of the Bowel Tolerance method of self dosage determination [for any-and-all health maladies]. And I hope I am not working at cross-purposes with/to you!
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#6  Post by Johnwen » Tue May 13, 2014 4:53 pm

Yes! The ITA (LIMA) Internal Thoracic Artery has a history of better patency over the saphenous vein grafts. Because, being a artery means it’s not subject to hyperplasia that vein grafts have. But is subject to stenosis as the other cardiac arteries are. I wrote about neo intimal hyperplasia and I’ll see if can find the links to them. I made recommendations as to how to slow this process. Since you made three years already it would be a good idea to add it to your regimen.
On the angina, have they determined if their ischemic or muscular/skeletal in origin?
Your V-C protocol sounds pretty good but like Owen said you’re a little high on L-Lysine and Proline. If your not having stomach issues you could stay on course but if it become’s problematic it would be a good idea to drop the l-lysine down to 6 grams and half the Proline.
On the high Cholesterol have They checked your Glucose and insulin levels?

Here’s some links if you search keyword “Hyperplasia” author “Johnwen”
You’ll find a bunch more.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8760&p=24761&hilit=hyperplasia#p24761

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11136&p=34674&hilit=hyperplasia#p34674

David:
One word “ANGINA” without a known cause of what’s causing it would be a Good idea to stay away from BT! Because of the impact a run (Cramps) would have on the vagus nerve and what effect it would in turn have on the heart.
Therefore I concur with Owen. Till a known cause is determined BT would be contraindicated! Staying in a area of 100 Mg/Kg daily intake would be a safe area, providing they stay below BT.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#7  Post by davids1 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:55 pm

Hi John,
John wrote:David: One word “ANGINA” without a known cause of what’s causing it would be a Good idea to stay away from BT! Because of the impact a run (Cramps) would have on the vagus nerve and what effect it would in turn have on the heart.
Therefore I concur with Owen. Till a known cause is determined BT would be contraindicated! Staying in a area of 100 Mg/Kg daily intake would be a safe area, providing they stay below BT.
Thank you for your clarification.

Question: Would it not be possible for a person to very slowly increase their ascorbate intake, and closely/carefully monitor how they feel? Or, would a person "feel" nothing "until it was too late?" Technically, Bowel Tolerance is that point before reaching [benign] diarrhea [although practically speaking, I would agree, that is not always an easy point to anticipate].

I guess, my point [or question], is that it would seem to me that the risk of not enough ascorbate intake is essentially [at least longer term] potentially as great as the risk of possible consequences from too much ascorbate intake, [IF one monitors the reactions from one's intake carefully/closely].

As I recommend ascorbate therapy to many people [facing a vast array of maladies] on several different forums, John, I would be very interested in your [further] viewpoint on this.

Thank you [again],

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#8  Post by johnhoperobinson » Wed May 14, 2014 3:04 am

Thanks David/Johnwen
Your advice is much appreciated.
David sorry I should of pointed out that I am actually at BT for my Vit C intake.
10g is what I can tolerate so I added the Lypo C to my regimen also.
Johnwen on the Angina I don't have great faith in the medical system here in the UK as it all seems generally very 'cloak and dagger' and not very open so trying to determine that may be a little difficult although worth a go.
I do have an empathic local doctor though who is looking into testing my LP(a).
I thought that as I have an angiogram CD someone may be able to decipher it?
my glucose levels were fine a while ago and yet it may be time to check again.

I will also read the links you have sent to me.

thanks again guys

john

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#9  Post by davids1 » Wed May 14, 2014 11:05 am

John wrote:David sorry I should of pointed out that I am actually at BT for my Vit C intake. 10g is what I can tolerate so I added the Lypo C to my regimen also.
Hi John,

If I was in your circumstances, i.e. at Bowel Tolerance, and still having [any] negative symptoms, I also would definitely do as you are doing, e.g. adding liposomal ascorbate to my regimen. In fact, if I could afford it, I would definitely be adding more than one packet a day!

You are most welcome, John, and I wish you the best of success in resolving your health issue(s) with "godspeed!"

Best regards,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#10  Post by johnhoperobinson » Wed May 14, 2014 2:22 pm

Thankyou David
I am very grateful for your comments and advice.
I am very glad I joined this forum with so many Vit. C educated people.

take care

john

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Fri May 16, 2014 9:47 am

To the original poster - you mentioned you are still on statins!?! Not a great idea as they INCREASE Lp(a), and while this warning (raising Lp(a) isn't required by our FDA to notify US docs, it is required in Canada. If you scroll down this page, http://naturesperfectstatin.com/warn you'll find a hilited scanned page from the Canadian edition of New England Journal of medicine. Note the warning on statins and Lp(a)! If you don't want to stop the statins, you must be taking at least 200 mg of CoQ10. If I were in your shoes and could afford it, I would probably take around 600 mg of coQ10 daily - to overcome the statin-induced deficiency.


Sorry, I did not make it through David's first post! But we do know approximately how much vitamin C is required to stop chronic scurvy. I first noticed (and have long ago written) that those taking 10,000 mg of vitamin C will not develop heart disease. I once issued a challenge about this - looking for any person who was regularly taking this dosage for at least a year who was then diagnosed with cardiovascular disease. So far no takers.

Furthermore, johnwen developed a calculation and table to help people determine how much vitamin C they require to ward of cardiovascular disease. If I remember the story, his wife recovered and then johnwen went on vitamin C and lysine (Tower Heart Technology) but johnwen started to develop symptoms and realized that dosage is a matter of body weight (and other factors.) Here is johnwen's post on calculating vitamin C intake required to keep heart disease at bay: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7593

I don't have a problem with bowel tolerance, save Johnwen's concerns, because something else may be going on. My point is there is a dosage for chronic scurvy, and for someone with a low bowel tolerance, they will require at least as much as johnwen's formula/table say you need.
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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#12  Post by johnhoperobinson » Fri May 16, 2014 3:53 pm

Hi Owen
I think fear has been the main reason for my continued use of statins as I have had it rammed down my throat for so long by doctors that due to having a bypass at 32 and then at 47 and a very high cholesterol 440 + I was told that my life depended on it !!
If of course that was the case then I would not of needed another bypass !
If clearly the high level of my cholesterol is not the issue then I do realise that it is pointless to be taking them.
I was also diagnosed with CLL (a benign (usually) form of leukemia) 6 years ago which I can't help thinking that it could of been caused by the statins after 20 years use?
I am hoping that the high dosage Vit C protocol will aid this condition to or even cure it?
nonetheless I am determined.
I would welcome your thoughts.

thanks again

john

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#13  Post by Johnwen » Sat May 17, 2014 9:56 am

John Have they staged your CLL?
Since your in England they probably use the Binet staging but hopefully they also gave a RAI stage.
It's a lot more detailed!
Either way have they even told you this?
Would you mind sharing this info If they have?
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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#14  Post by johnhoperobinson » Sat May 17, 2014 10:46 am

hi Johnwen
I am on a 'watch and wait' as I only had a very slightly high white count which was only detected by chance.
I decided not to continue with blood tests as I believe some of the 'medical' people here 'prefer' you to be ill.
I have always felt fine in 6 years and feel that adverse knowledge would not be beneficial to me psychologically.
I have seen loads of people live a normal lifespan with CLL.
I noted in Paulings book he wrote about someone who had taken Vit C and was fine with it and I have seen people 'cured' of leukemia on Vit C/green tea , but that's all the info I have.
Johnwen I'm just the type of person who doesn't want to be labelled 'ill' by certain people who feel they have to be pharmaceutical miracle workers to be truthful or maybe I'm just to sceptical !

thanks

john

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Re: 2 Heart Bypass op's and now on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Mon May 19, 2014 6:43 am

What is the dosage of the statin? No sure of the units for the 440 cholesterol, but extremely high is probably the only reason to consider a statin.
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