Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:48 am

Which form of vitamin C to take can be confusing. It is my opinion that for heart disease, chronic scurvy, until it can be proven otherwise, that the absolute number of vitamin C molecules entering the blood is key. The research cited by Pauling in HTLLAFB shows that one molecule of ascorbate is required and used up creating one molecule? (strand?) of collagen.

Therefore, if you are like most people and require 10 grams of ordinary vitamin C powder daily for reversal, then you may require 5 to 10 grams of liposomal for the same effect (assuming 50% loss in GI Tract from powder and zero loss from liposomal vitamin C.)

The point is while there is apparently a significant amplification effect of true liposomal vitamin C against infection, from any true liposomal vitamin C product, e.g. ours or Livon's (meaning less dosage provides more bang than ordinary C powder or even IV/C) the advantage for those with heart disease is unclear, except in cases of people who cannot absorb (tolerate) high enough dosages of ordinary vitamin C. Liposomal vitamin C is better absorbed in the GI Tract and we have reports of benefit when people ADD it on top of their vitamin C powder (not replace it).

The other issue is that the plaques line the arteries or lumen. If the liposomal vitamin C remains encapsulated and passes into cells, they action against the plaque might be by-passed. (If most enters the liver, becomes ordinary ascorbate, and then enters the blood - this problem is a non issue. The point is that our nearly 20 years of experience now shows that the Pauling-therapy using ascorbic acid powder works almost every time.)
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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#2  Post by Serdna » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:02 am

ofonorow wrote:It is my opinion that for heart disease, chronic scurvy, until it can be proven otherwise, that the absolute number of vitamin C molecules entering the blood is key. The research cited by Pauling in HTLLAFB shows that one molecule of ascorbate is required and used up creating one molecule? (strand?) of collagen.

That point is outdated. Actually it seems that AA is oxidized to DHA only when not enough substrate is present. From Vitamins C and E: Beneficial effects from a mechanistic perspective:
Coordination of ascorbate with enzyme-bound iron would provide the necessary electrons in uncoupled reaction cycles to reactivate the enzyme (Figure 1), consistent with the observation that ascorbate is consumed stoichiometrically in uncoupled reaction cycles [11]. Thus, the role of ascorbate is to keep the nonheme iron in the catalytically active, reduced state.

Even then since this DHA is within the cell it should be reduced back to AA by glutathione most of the times.

So it must be some orders of magnitude more procollagen (hence collagen) molecules generated per AA molecule lost (finally not reduced back but degraded).

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:14 am

Serdana, I'm wondering if this was posted in the wrong topic? That you meant to post or thought you were reading a DHA topic? If so, please move to the correct topic.

And I will take the opportunity to clarify, just in case. This section - Heart Disease and Stroke - is for people with heart disease or those wanting to learn more about Pauling's theory and therapy.

We have long parroted Linus Pauling's advice that 5 to 6 grams of vitamin C and 5 to 6 grams of lysine is effective for arresting and even reversing cardiovascular disease, if the dosage is maintained.

The reason for this post is to profer that 6 grams of liposomal might not be equivalent to say 12 grams of ordinary powder, because we are not certain whether the encapsulated vitamin C works its magic on Lp(a)-based plaques.

Furthermore, while we are seeing extraordinary "amplification effects" of True-liposomal versus infection, especially viral infection, so that Dr. Levy estimates from his clinical experience, that True-Liposomal may be 10 times more effective that IV/C directly into the vein - gram for gram.

I don't yet believe such an amplification works visa vis heart disease because at its core, heart disease is a collagen deficiency issue.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#4  Post by Serdna » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:08 am

ofonorow wrote:Serdana, I'm wondering if this was posted in the wrong topic? That you meant to post or thought you were reading a DHA topic?

No, I mean DeHydroAscorbic acid by DHA.

ofonorow wrote:
The reason for this post is to profer that 6 grams of liposomal might not be equivalent to say 12 grams of ordinary powder, because we are not certain whether the encapsulated vitamin C works its magic on Lp(a)-based plaques.

Furthermore, while we are seeing extraordinary "amplification effects" of True-liposomal versus infection, especially viral infection, so that Dr. Levy estimates from his clinical experience, that True-Liposomal may be 10 times more effective that IV/C directly into the vein - gram for gram.

I don't yet believe such an amplification works visa vis heart disease because at its core, heart disease is a collagen deficiency issue.

Of course it is not clear if liposomal is going to have a greater effect outside infections. Infection bringing down ascorbate reserves has already been observed. But certainly collagen production doesn't bring down significantly ascorbate reserves as I have pointed out.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:15 am

Sorry, I think I am starting to see your point. You disagree with the Japanese study cited by Pauling in HTLLAFB that found one molecule of ascorbate is "used up" creating one molecule of collagen?

This is reference 11 in the paper you linked to.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6325436
and there may very well be the Pauling reference (with associated translation issues.)

The hydroxylation of proline and lysine residues by the collagen hydroxylases is coupled with a stoichiometric decarboxylation of 2-oxoglutarate. Ascorbate is virtually a specific requirement for these enzymes, but previous studies have demonstrated that it is not consumed during most catalytic cycles. Prolyl 4-hydroxylase and lysyl hydroxylase are known also to catalyze an uncoupled decarboxylation of 2-oxoglutarate in the absence of the peptide substrate. It is shown here that, unlike the complete hydroxylation reaction, the uncoupled decarboxylation reaction involves stoichiometric ascorbate consumption.


They say they are disagreeing with the previous studies, so there is at least a question here. And the next part of the abstract regarding L-proline is also fascinating.
This stoichiometric ascorbate consumption was also seen when the rate of the uncoupled prolyl 4-hydroxylase reaction was enhanced by the addition of poly(L-proline). Since collagen hydroxylases may catalyze occasional uncoupled reaction cycles even in the presence of the peptide substrates, the main function of ascorbate in these reactions in vivo is suggested to be that of reactivating the enzymes after such uncoupled cycles.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#6  Post by Serdna » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:01 pm

I don't dispute it being consumed. My point is that consumed ascorbic acid (hence dehydroascorbic acid) is highly likely to be reduced back to ascorbic acid by glutathione inside the cell.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:17 am

So why then do people suffer scurvy - or more commonly - chronic scurvy (aka cardiovascular disease )?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#8  Post by samarkand » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:26 am

I am interested in the debate re Liposomal and ordinary vitamin C powder.

My situation is 2 x 50% blockages and one unexpected recently fitted stent for a 90%+ blockage.

Currently I am taking liquid Liposomal C by DaVinci Laboratories of Vermont. Approx 4000 mg per day - started 2 weeks ago. Plus Lysine and Proline, and a number of other supplements recommended by an alternative MD. I found an article where Dr Levy discusses encapsulated liposomal tablets and intravenous liposomal at this link, (but does not mention liquid liposomals potential effects) http://www.peakenergy.com/articles/nh20 ... nutrients/

An article from Natural Health with a few highlights below
http://www.naturalhealth365.com/liposomal-c.html/

Here are ‘typical’ liposomal vitamin C protocols given in the article
In cases of ‘extreme’ disease – like late stage infections, cancer or heart disease: 8-12 grams is optimal. Simply take 4,000 mg, 2-3 x daily.
For an individual with no major symptoms or diagnosis that wants good general health: 1-2 grams is optimal. Simply take 1,000 mg, 1-2 x daily. Extreme athlete or individual with major health challenges: 4-6 grams is optimal. Simply take 2,000 mg, 2-3x daily.

Case study in the article proves the healing power of liposomal vitamin C
New Zealand dairy farmer Alan Smith had a miraculous recovery from a coma induced by leukemia and severe double lung pneumonia. Doctors were ready to pull the plug on him when the family begged them to try high dose IV vitamin C. Alan began showing positive results after the doctors administered 50-100 grams of IV vitamin C.
Unfortunately, the doctors at the hospital who were relatively uneducated on vitamin C were concerned about any possible complications with the high dose IV vitamin C. They dropped the dosage to 2g of vitamin C and Alan began to struggle for survival again. His family began giving him 6 grams of oral liposomal vitamin C and within weeks he was significantly better and was discharged from the hospital.


Do learned forum members think I would be better off with the vitamin C Powder like Ascorsine-9 which combines all ingredients?

Thanks in advance

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#9  Post by Joanna45 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:22 pm

I use heart tech from tower labs had 48% narrowing of superior mesenteric artery and same with mesenteric celiac artery ..it feeds blood to the stomach and what made me see the doctor was extreme stomach pain after eating ..had a mesenteric duplex ultrasound that showed the narrowing ..inferior mesenteric were all fine ..with in a week of taking 6-9 grams of heart tech could eat with without any pain ..that was this past July and am still taking the heart tech and am now back to regular routine ..and am skiing again with no fatigue..

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:35 am

samarkand wrote:I am interested in the debate re Liposomal and ordinary vitamin C powder.

My situation is 2 x 50% blockages and one unexpected recently fitted stent for a 90%+ blockage.

Currently I am taking liquid Liposomal C by DaVinci Laboratories of Vermont. Approx 4000 mg per day - started 2 weeks ago. Plus Lysine and Proline, and a number of other supplements recommended by an alternative MD.



Do you have anything to report about your experience/dosage with DaVinci Lab's liposomal vitamin C? This topic is trying to make the point that you cannot decrease your dosage (much) with a liposomal when trying to beat chronic scurvy (aka heart disease). Furthermore, for reversals, there are theoretical reasons why a powder might be better than a liposomal (if it remains encapsulated until it enters cells). Liposomal for infections is a different matter entirely.
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My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#11  Post by samarkand » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:56 am

I haven't managed to get up to diarrhoea state with DaVinci - taking 1 tablespoon x 3 daily- estimate that to be 4000-5000mg. I've now ordered the Pauling Therapy power as you suggested, which will also minimise tablet intake.

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Re: Liposomal Vitamin C and Heart Disease

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:37 am

The report we are interested in is any effect on cardiovascular disease? If you were in pain, did it decrease (or increase?) Have your cholesterol numbers changed? Do you have more energy, i.e., the types of effects that have been reported when people in your condition start Pauling's therapy; usually within 10 days on at least 5000 mg of ascorbic acid POWDER.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


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