Questions on Lysine Effects (Lyme Disease)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Questions on Lysine Effects (Lyme Disease)

Post Number:#1  Post by AngieLynn » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:38 pm

Hi - I have a couple questions on this and would appreciate your input.

1. Lysine seems to induce mild tremors in my hands, leg... Why on earth would it do this, and should I take it anyway? Should I open a capsule and try to find the tiniest dose I can without the side effects?

2. I am taking something during the day that becomes ineffective when I take antioxidants. So I need to take my antioxidants only morning and at bed time. Will this program help if I don't take the c/lysine/proline throughout the day time hours?

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Re: Starting the Pauling Therapy (w/pills) for Newbies

Post Number:#2  Post by AngieLynn » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:48 pm

Anyone? Ofonorrow?

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects/Antioxidants

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:55 am

I split this topic - and hope you find it.

Never heard of tremors associated with taking lysine. What form or brand are you taking? Large doses of brands that contain fillers may lead to issues because of the fillers - not lysine.

Tremors may indicate heavy metal toxicity or poisoning, e.g. mercury. Remember that meats (protein) contain lysine and you cannot live without at least 1 gram daily. Lysine is essential.

Any treatment that advises against taking antioxidants must be trying to oxidize some pathogen or cancer. Generally, you want very high antioxidants after the treatment period to protect you good cells from damage.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects

Post Number:#4  Post by AngieLynn » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:27 pm

Hi ofonorrow - I've tried a couple kinds of lysine - Now brand, and one other. Don't remember what it was. I had the same reaction with both.

Is there a reason why tremors when taking lysine would indicate metal toxicity? I eat beef with no problem by the way.

I'm actually taking MMS for lyme. I know that's controversial, but it's been amazing for me for some other serious infections. It's a pro-oxidant. I also utilize ozone, and vitamin C stops both from working. I find the vitamin C really, really helps me, so I want to do both but I need to separate them, so I wouldn't be able to take a mid-day dose of any type of strong anti-oxidant.

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:47 am

My first question would be. “Have you been positively diagnosed with lyme disease?”
Did they do either a ELISA or Western Blot test to confirm this?
Have you or are you under the care of a neurologist?

Lysine affects certain proteins in the blood and nervous system and possibly could be affecting those that lymes is producing and could be a prelude to Parkinson’s which lyme’s has been know to induce.

Really you need to be under the care of a lyme literate medical doctor because this disease can progress and do serious irreversible damage. Primarily to the nervous system and since your showing sign’s of nerve interruption you would be well advised to seek help soon!
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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:14 pm

What johnwen said.

Our local doctor uses IV MMS for treating lyme and other infection, and while I do not fully understand how it works, I believe it was first used for malaria, people with "Lyme" swear by it (makes them feel better). From all this, I think I have learned that Lyme disease is very hard to treat, much less eradicate. If you (or anyone) discoverers the magic bullet, we would like to know.

As an aside, a local dentist who stops by our store is diagnosed with Lyme. He seems to be having good results with our True-Liposomal vitamin C (at least he keeps stopping by and purchasing more in large numbers.)

Are you using lysine powders - or pills? The only way to make sure it is the lysine causing the tremors is to use a pure powder.

Heavy metal poisoning causes parkinson-like tremors. Lysine has a known "anti-viral" effect (not that Lyme is a virus) and perhaps the attack of vitamin C and lysine is working, and the pathogens are emitting more toxins? (If Dr. Levy is correct, (Primal Panacea) one approach is very high vitamin C to neutralize any toxins being emitted by the Lyme pathogen.

As far as trying to mix MMS with vitamin C, all you can do is separate both treatments in time.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects

Post Number:#7  Post by purposefirst » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:35 pm

Good info by Johnwen and Owen. I can offer something also as I've had pretty extensive personal experience with lyme.

I used to work as an arborist which put me in nearly constant risk of deer-tick bites. Over a period of 10 years I had Lyme four times! Twice I located the tick followed by the "bull's eye rash" -- which is the most certain evidence that one is infected by lyme (borrelia). (The ELISA and Western Blot are helpful if one does not have the primary tick-bite evidence, but are not completely reliable. A knowledgeable lyme specialist uses those tests in combination with an analysis of your symptoms.)

Two of the times I had lyme the tick/rash was identified immediately, and a few weeks of Doxycycline (antibiotic) took care of it. But one time I never saw a tick/bite or rash, I just got sick. My knees became too painful for walking and I was on crutches for 5 months. During that period the doctors did not know what was wrong. With the help of the internet I finally diagnosed the problem myself as lyme and went to see a lyme specialist who confirmed it. By that time it was "advanced lyme" which required much more than the conventional doxy or amoxycyline. I was put on IV Rocephin daily for 10 weeks (accompanied with diarrhea daily). At that point "regulations" required stopping it for one month, and then probably resuming with a different IV antibiotic.

Instead of waiting I immediately took up herbalist Stephen Buhner's recommendations for treating lyme as indicated in his book, Healing Lyme. No drugs, only herbs and nutritional supplements, which I followed to the max with one exception: Buhner recommended 1,000 mg of vitamin C 3xday (3,000). But I had heard about too much C causing kidney stone so I took only a small fraction of that (which of course was a mistake, doh! :( ). But I took lots of other antioxidants. The herbs and nutrients were helping so much that I did not bother going back for the 30-day test. In just 3 months on the new protocol I was back climbing trees again (part time, but hey, I was 65.) (Out of work for 10 months total.)

Three years later, I got another tick bite/rash lyme infection. I tried to treat it with Buhner's stuff alone, no antibiotics. But I very gradually got sicker. The lyme specialist had a 2-month waiting list, so by the time I got to see him it was advanced lyme again. But this time it turned out I had a "co-infection" called babesia (similar to malaria), which I suppose is why I got sick regardless of Buhner's protocol, I guess. The new doc worked with me combining oral antibiotics with herbs and nutritional supplements. It worked well enough that I was able to resume climbing trees almost immediately (2-3 day/wk), but it took two years before the blood test indicated that I was finally free of both diseases. During that entire period I was still under the misapprehension about C and kidney stones so I had to take only small amount of vitamin C. It might have gone better, but at least I'm "clean." (My doc was not particularly knowledgeable on vitamin C, but he worked with me on incorporating much of Buhner's protocol.)

Since then I've learned much more about nutrition and supplements. I think it is possible to beat lyme (and babesia) without antibiotics, but it takes considerable discipline and a lot of money on supplements that insurance does not cover. I'm not absolutely opposed to antibiotics. You have to work with the doc.

Very important: Find an experienced Lyme Specialist. Conventional docs/GPs are usually worthless with advanced lyme. A good lyme doc will include herbs and nutritional supplements in the protocol.

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects

Post Number:#8  Post by AngieLynn » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:44 pm

Hi all - thanks for all the info and purposefirst, thanks for sharing your experience.

I had a lyme literate ND that I was consulting with across the country by phone. She radically increased her price and we weren't making much progress anyway. There is no one in my area that's lyme literate, can deal with my sensitivities and health issues, and accepts insurance.

I am unable to tolerate antibiotics. I am dealing with a methylation disorder, which may explain it. I have a local integrative doctor who is excellent, but not lyme literate. I'm doing the best I can with what I've got.

Right now I'm working on diet, exercise, daily far infrared sauna, weekly glutathione IV's, various forms of vitamin C including nightly 5 packets of livon labs liposomal C and a mid-week dose of 4 livon liposomal glutathione packets, enemas as needed, juicing, and a lot of supplements based on my blood work and health history. I'm working on getting on MMS regularly, and I will start rife shortly as well. I get regular chiropractic, occasional massage. I also use medical grade ozone periodically.

I'm starting to see a bit of improvement, but I'd sure appreciate any suggestions.

Purposefirst, I'd love to know how you feel lyme can be eradicated naturally. Thanks!

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects

Post Number:#9  Post by purposefirst » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:49 pm

AngieLynn wrote:Purposefirst, I'd love to know how you feel lyme can be eradicated naturally. Thanks!

Hi Angie,
I don't have time tonight, but promise I'll respond tomorrow. :)

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects (Lyme Disease)

Post Number:#10  Post by purposefirst » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:38 pm

Angie,
It's good to see that you are doing many pro-active steps, indicating you are not lazy. A person needs to put in real effort to beat advanced lyme.

Please obtain Stephen Buhner's book, Healing Lyme. I just checked Amazon – it's still available. It contains a wealth of information. Buhner is an herbalist who has really studied his field. The book is technical but quite understandable for the layperson. Buhner lists about 500 references behind the info he offers, but much of it is from his own experience as an herbalist. He addresses controversies even within the realm of the alternative field. For example, an herbal product called Samento is popularly indicated as one of the weapons against lyme by many Lyme-literate docs. Samento is derived from the herb, Cat's Claw, and contains only some the constituents of Cat's Claw. Buhner wrote a detailed account of why one should NOT use Samento, but should use the full Cat's Claw. In fact, CC is one of Buhner's primary herbs against lyme. Buhner even suggests what brands to buy of some of his various recommended herbs and supplements.

Buhner's "core protocol" is: andrographis, resveratrol, cat's claw, and smilax. He provides a range of amounts to take of each. He also has separate additional protocols for various lyme-related purposes. For example, there is the "collagenous tissue protocol" which includes vitamin C and about 8 more items. He goes into detail about what each herb, vitamin, hormone, etc does in the body and why it is recommended.

My first episode with advanced lyme, as stated earlier, had me on crutches for 5 months (and almost ready for a wheelchair). Once finally diagnosed I was immediately put on 10 weeks of IV Rocephin which helped a lot! I was off the crutches, but could still hardly walk and still had other symptoms -- in other words, I still had lyme. When they cut me off of the Rocephin, I went full out with Buhner's recommendations, which certainly seemed to do the job. In three months I could resume working part-time. After about 8 months on the herbs, I weened off having fully recovered (and had NO antibiotics during that period).

You are probably aware that there are several lyme support groups open to all on the internet. There is a Buhner support group in which I used to participate 7-8 years ago, which probably still exists. I want to share one lesson I learned there. Many of the participants complained about the AMOUNT OF PILLS that Buhner recommends. They often complained about not being able to take so many. And they did not get well! Look, if you want to get well, you do what it takes! I took the MAXIMUM of nearly everything that Buhner recommended. That meant for me about 35 pills per meal, over 100 per day (plus a few item in liquid or powder form). It's not so hard – a mouthful of food, then one or two pills with a sip of water, another mouthful of food, another one or two pills, etc.

There is a website called Planet Thrive on which Buhner does Q&A.
http://planetthrive.com/

I see there is now a new website that Planet Thrive has devoted exclusively to Buhner at:
http://www.buhnerhealinglyme.com/about/

The second time that I wound up with advance lyme I had tried to deal with the infection right from the beginning with Buhner's approach, but I gradually got sicker – probably because, unbeknownst to me, I also was infected with Babesia. Also I might have had a tougher strain of borrelia that time. My Lyme-literate doc (who was big on blood tests which revealed the Babesia and the Lyme) worked with me as we incorporated Buhner's stuff along with his oral antibiotics (mainly Minocycline and Tindemax) for the Lyme; and Artimisinin and Quina for the Babesia. The antibiotic treatment was minimal so that I would not be continually wiped out. I was able to continue my work as an arborist pretty much throughout the 2 years it took before I became symptom-free and my doc said my blood tests indicated I was cured.

One of the big problems with Lyme is that when the spirochetes are confronted with an antibiotic they tend to go into "cyst form" which is kinda like hybernation and renders them safe from the antibiotics. When the coast is clear, they go back to their active form. Tindemax is the "cyst buster." I liked Tindemax as there seemed to be no negative side effects, and it apparently worked. You said you cannot tolerate antibiotics. Not any of them? If not for the the Babesia, I might have been successful the second time with just Buhner's stuff, who knows.

My Lyme doc is an MD so he can prescribe anything legal. He's a nice guy. He might be willing to work with you by phone. Even blood tests can be done long-distance if you have access to something such as "Quest Diagnostics." Results can be emailed to the doc. Let me know by private message if you would like his name and phone.

You mentioned the rife machine. I looked into that 7-8 years ago. I ruled it out as I didn't see how it could work from a scientific standpoint – but I could be wrong. We each have to decide these things for ourselves.

Good luck.

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects

Post Number:#11  Post by eDOC » Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:06 am

AngieLynn wrote:Hi all - thanks for all the info and purposefirst, thanks for sharing your experience.

I had a lyme literate ND that I was consulting with across the country by phone. She radically increased her price and we weren't making much progress anyway. There is no one in my area that's lyme literate, can deal with my sensitivities and health issues, and accepts insurance.

I am unable to tolerate antibiotics. I am dealing with a methylation disorder, which may explain it. I have a local integrative doctor who is excellent, but not lyme literate. I'm doing the best I can with what I've got.

Right now I'm working on diet, exercise, daily far infrared sauna, weekly glutathione IV's, various forms of vitamin C including nightly 5 packets of livon labs liposomal C and a mid-week dose of 4 livon liposomal glutathione packets, enemas as needed, juicing, and a lot of supplements based on my blood work and health history. I'm working on getting on MMS regularly, and I will start rife shortly as well. I get regular chiropractic, occasional massage. I also use medical grade ozone periodically.

I'm starting to see a bit of improvement, but I'd sure appreciate any suggestions.

Purposefirst, I'd love to know how you feel lyme can be eradicated naturally. Thanks!


Clinically none of what you are taking shall help eradicate Lyme's. I have a patient in Orlando who has tried all what you are taking, rather more.

If you want I can give you her #.

The only thing that is helping is IV DMSO, which she has started taking at a local Clinic in Orl, after being diagnosed with it for the last 20 years.

Good Luck.
Rookie, rusty, subaverage doc but one that gives results. But do remember no freebies. Email questions, wouldn't be answered free, I'd be charging for a consult. So think twice, before sending a mail.

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects (Lyme Disease)

Post Number:#12  Post by AngieLynn » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:16 pm

Hi edoc - yes I'd appreciate her contact info.

Purposefirst, I'd appreciate your doc's info as well. Thanks!

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects (Lyme Disease)

Post Number:#13  Post by purposefirst » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:03 am

AngieLynn wrote:Purposefirst, I'd appreciate your doc's info as well. Thanks!


Hi Angie,
I sent you the info by private message long ago. Go to the top of this page (after logging in) and click on "User control panel," then click on "private messages" (to the left), and then click on "Inbox." Hopefully my message will be there. If not, please let me know here.

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Re: Questions on Lysine Effects (Lyme Disease)

Post Number:#14  Post by ofonorow » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:04 am

bumpt to archive
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


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