German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

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skwoodwiva
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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#46  Post by skwoodwiva » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:24 am

Frodo wrote:Owen, please look at post 40. Do you think it could be caused by the medications (aspirin and thyroxin)?
Lp(a) didn't decline further until now. OK. I think it needs time. But there are other good news: Ejection fraction has increased to 55-60 %. And the part of my heartmuscle, that was damaged by mci, has started to work, unexpected. I'm happy.

What were your lower EFs and how long did it take for an improvement?
I had a similar EF improvement along with heart wall elasticity

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#47  Post by Frodo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:53 am

skwoodwiva wrote:
Frodo wrote:Owen, please look at post 40. Do you think it could be caused by the medications (aspirin and thyroxin)?
Lp(a) didn't decline further until now. OK. I think it needs time. But there are other good news: Ejection fraction has increased to 55-60 %. And the part of my heartmuscle, that was damaged by mci, has started to work, unexpected. I'm happy.

What were your lower EFs and how long did it take for an improvement?
I had a similar EF improvement along with heart wall elasticity

My lower EF was 45% in December 2016. So it took 6 months. But the best of all is that the destroyed part of my heartmuscle is living again.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#48  Post by skwoodwiva » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:15 pm

Frodo wrote:
skwoodwiva wrote:
Frodo wrote:Owen, please look at post 40. Do you think it could be caused by the medications (aspirin and thyroxin)?
Lp(a) didn't decline further until now. OK. I think it needs time. But there are other good news: Ejection fraction has increased to 55-60 %. And the part of my heartmuscle, that was damaged by mci, has started to work, unexpected. I'm happy.

What were your lower EFs and how long did it take for an improvement?
I had a similar EF improvement along with heart wall elasticity

My lower EF was 45% in December 2016. So it took 6 months. But the best of all is that the destroyed part of my heartmuscle is living again.

Me too, in 4 months or so, 30-35 to 50-55.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#49  Post by Frodo » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:16 am

skwoodwiva
Congratulation. I'm glad. We are great.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#50  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:52 am

All good news as far as I can tell, save perhaps the Lp(a). The aspirin nullifies some of the vitamin C (uses it up) but with the dosage you are taking, shouldn't matter.

The vitamin E you are taking must be good :D

A poster asked a "strange" question..

francisunderwood wrote:Owen, I read on here that vitamin E can lower the effect of vitamin c, is that correct? If so is there a way to take them separately to avoid this?

if that person can find the link to the post (probably in the archive) I would appreciate it.

This sentence out-of-context makes no sense. There is no reason to worry about any collision between vitamins C and E. Although vitamin E is a fat soluble antioxidant and vitamin C is the primary water soluble antioxidant, there is a research that vitamin E can help recycle vitamin C (and possibly visa versa). There is a synergy together. Pauling devotes an entire chapter on Heart Disease to vitamin E and the Shute brothers in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER.

A"crystal ball" has been discovered that will reveal whether you are about to have a heart attack: Its low serum vitamin E. (Much better predictor than elevated cholesterol - 50% of the heart attacks have normal cholesterol, or high blood pressure.).

How do you avoid low blood serum vitamin E? SUPPLEMENT! The study we've pointed to over and over


Inverse correlation between plasma vitamin E and mortality from ischemic heart disease in cross-cultural epidemiology.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1985406

In something like 16,000 people (in 12 populations)

Evaluating all populations, cholesterol and diastolic blood pressure were moderately associated, but their correlation was inferior to that of vitamin E


Credit goes to author Sherry Rogers MD for the "crystal ball" metaphor
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#51  Post by francisunderwood » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:01 am

Here is the link regarding my post with vitamin c and e.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8875

It's post number 3 and references Uwe Grober,

"Vitamin E: Intake of vitamin E raises vitamin C needs. In investigations with non-smokers and vitamin E doses > 500mg/day there was an decline of vitamin C plasma-levels of up to 40%."


That is the only place I have ever seen anything like that but wanted to make sure how I was taking my vitamins were correct.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#52  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:00 am

Vitamin E: Intake of vitamin E raises vitamin C needs. In investigations with non-smokers and vitamin E doses > 500mg/day there was an decline of vitamin C plasma-levels of up to 40%


Rereading that post, there were a lot of claims that seemed questionable, but the Vitamin E caution is among the worst. A reference would be very helpful, as there is much "garbage" masquerading as science in the attempt to discredit both vitamins E and C. The units betray a mistake, since vitamin E is almost always given in IUs (international units - computed based on the reproductive capacity of lab rats!) The 500 mg/day sounds more like a vitamin C dosage, not vitamin E. Vitamin C plasma-levels vary, so all depends on when these measurements were taken.

But lets take this at face value. Lets assume that steady state vitamin C levels decline by 1/2 taking vitamin E. One explanation is that taking more vitamin E allows more of the vitamin C to enter cells. This would "empty" the blood stream and thus lower vitamin C plasma-levels. In order to find out whether vitamin C is entering cells - or filtered by the kidneys and "wasted" out the urine, the intra-cellular vitamin C content (before/after) would also have to be measured. And/or the vitamin C in the urine could be measured, to see whether vitamin E was causing more vitamin C to be excreted in the urine. So without those other measurements, this observation doesn't mean all that much. The caution as written implies that "investigations" (more than one) have been made, but this "vitamin C depletion" effect is not something I have ever read about.

On the other hand, both vitamin C and E prevent heart attack and can cure cardiovascular disease :-)

Went looking for some references, no luck, but did find this


Endotoxin depletes ascorbate in the guinea pig heart. Protective effects of vitamins C and E against oxidative stress.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8761015

The effect of acute endotoxin-induced septic shock on myocardium oxidative stress after low or high vitamin C and/or E dietary supplementation was studied in guinea pigs, laboratory animals which, like human, do not have capacity for ascorbate synthesis. Neither the antioxidant enzymes or GSH were modified by endotoxin and vitamin treatments. Vitamin E showed a strong capacity to protect the myocardium against both enzymatic and non-enzymatic lipid peroxidation even in the presence of endotoxin. Vitamin C supplementation increased heart ascorbate whereas endotoxic shock totally depleted the heart ascorbate of vitamin C supplemented animals without changing vitamin E. Endotoxin significantly increased myocardium uric acid, a marker of ischemia induced oxidative stress, in animals fed with low vitamin C levels. This increase was totally prevented in vitamin C supplemented, but not in vitamin E supplemented animals. Strongly depressed levels of plasma vitamin C have been recently described in sepsis in human patients. The results suggest that ascorbate is a primary antioxidant target in the heart of endotoxin treated mammals lacking the capacity to synthesize ascorbate and that ascorbate can have a protective value against endotoxin-induced free radical damage in the myocardium. Implications of these results for the possible preventive role of vitamin C in humans during sepsis are discussed.


Another study indicating that vitamin C levels are depleted in sepsis, and that vitamin E is important for the heart.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#53  Post by Frodo » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:56 am

Owen
You are right. With blood values measured by different labs one can not check, whether lp(a) levels have improved or not. The assays from different manufacturers differ from each other. That's because of heterogeneity and complexity of lp(a). I assume, my blood value has been measured by Roche. The conversion factor given by Roche is 0,4167. That's only a rough reference point. With this calculation my blood value was going to 57 mg/dl (137 nmol x 0,4167). But the assays can differ +/- 20 %. Therefore I will not change the lab once again. And I'll check my lp(a) level once more in August.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#54  Post by francisunderwood » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:48 pm

Frodo wrote:
francisunderwood wrote:
Frodo wrote:
Thank you, Owen
Despite my mci last year, I don't take all the drugs. Except baby aspirin (every second day 35 mg). I want to cut it too, next month. And (look at johnwens answer) I take indeed l-thyrox. Of course I regularly take vitamin E (800 IU). And the lab has really measured nmol lp(a). Value is 137 nmol.


What type of Vitamin E do you take?


Vitamin E complex from Greenfood and tocotrienols from Now.



I just was going to share something I read while getting ready to order some tocotrienols. Nearly every brand including the red palm Now tocotrienols are sneaky in their label description. For example I thought the 50mg of tocotrienols in the Now brand were per pill but here is what the label says, "Mixed Tocotrientol Complex (from Tocomin SupraBio® Red Palm Oil Tocotrienol/Tocopherol Complex)"

So that tells me there is tocopherols included in the 50mg and it does not break down the numbers of each tocotrienol.

The doctors best and life extension both read similar but their website break down the totals with enough searching.

The life extension gamma e formula lists 145mg of tocotrienols but their website says typically contains between 54-73 if you add them up individually.

The doctors best says 50mg of tocotrienols but has a typical range of 36.325-55.

The life extension is 30 dollars and the doctors best is 12.69. So the doctors best seems like the better and cheaper option. Taking vitamins should not take this much searching.

Does anyone know what the best dosage per day of tocotrienols would be?

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#55  Post by pamojja » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:20 pm

francisunderwood wrote:Does anyone know what the best dosage per day of tocotrienols would be?


This article talks about 200 mg/d: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/830034_3, scroll down to the section tocotrienols.

I used nutricology's delta fraction 125mg per cap, damn the just raised the price again.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#56  Post by guitarplayer007 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:35 am

hvc wrote:Owen, based on your last post, how much proline should i be taking with 60.5 grams of vitamin c? i take 3 scoops of cardio-c and supplement the rest with 1000mg of solgar vitamin c capsules. The only lysine and proline i am taking are in the 3 scoops of cardio-c.



WOW your taking 60 grams of Vitamin C a day? I thought it was supposed to be around 20 grams of Vitamin C when you have CVD?

Wonder if i need to up mine since my calcium score was so high?

Thx

Ken

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#57  Post by francisunderwood » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:56 am

pamojja wrote:
francisunderwood wrote:Does anyone know what the best dosage per day of tocotrienols would be?


This article talks about 200 mg/d: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/830034_3, scroll down to the section tocotrienols.

I used nutricology's delta fraction 125mg per cap, damn the just raised the price again.


Thanks so much for that link. After reading it I am going to try and get about 200mg of tocotrienols per day and I think the most cost effective way is by taking 1 delta fraction 125mg and 2 of the doctors best 50mg tocotrienols per day. By my estimate it would give me near 200mg per day of the gamma and delta tocotrienols per day at a cost of $1.05 per day which is not bad. A few quotes below make me think I should take the tocotrienols at night and the tocopherols during the morning. What are your thoughts based on the quotes below?

"The tocotrienol dose is very important, as increased dosing will induce its own metabolism and reduce effectiveness, whereas lower doses are not as effective.[5] Also concomitant intake (less than 12 h) of α-tocopherol reduces tocotrienol absorption. Increased intake of alpha tocopherol over 20% of total tocopherols may interfere with the lipid-lowering effect."

"Tocotrienols are metabolized by successive β-oxidation then catalyzed by the CYP450 enzymes 3A4 and CYP4F2.[5] The combination of a statin with γ/δ tocotrienols further reduces LDL cholesterol by 10%.[135] The tocotrienols block the adaptive response of upregulation of HMG-CoA reductase secondary to competitive inhibition by the statins.[5,135] Carotid artery stenosis regression has been reported in approximately 30% of subjects given tocotrienols over 18 months. They also slow progression of generalized atherosclerosis.[5,137] The recommended dose is 200 mg of γδ tocotrienol at night with food."

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#58  Post by pamojja » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:04 pm

francisunderwood wrote:
pamojja wrote:
francisunderwood wrote:A few quotes below make me think I should take the tocotrienols at night and the tocopherols during the morning. What are your thoughts based on the quotes below?


Did it the other way round. Tocotrienols with breakfast (after a 16 hrs fasting window) and tocopherols with dinner. Only eat twice a day.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#59  Post by francisunderwood » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:19 pm

pamojja wrote:
francisunderwood wrote:
pamojja wrote:


Did it the other way round. Tocotrienols with breakfast (after a 16 hrs fasting window) and tocopherols with dinner. Only eat twice a day.



I'm guessing the order doesn't matter as long as there is a time difference of 12 plus hours for maximum benefit?

If I'm spending money I want to make sure I get as much value as possible!

I have been taking my first C dose of the day when I get up at least 30 minutes before my breakfast to hopefully get the maximum benefit from the C before I take the E. Currently only taking a tocopherol mix because I didn't know any better before I bought those.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#60  Post by francisunderwood » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:33 pm

Does anyone know of a good vitamin e tocopherol mix that is not mostly the alpha tocopherol?


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