German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#31  Post by Frodo » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:07 am

Owen, is it right to take 2,5 grams proline or should I take more?

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#32  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:12 am


I don't know. What I think I know is that unlike lysine (which is essential, meaning all our lysine comes from the diet) our bodies can make proline, and my pet "theory" is that as we age, we make less, like everything else, leading to more atherosclerosis.

So how do you determine the "right" amount of proline? I have been using Lp(a) because our experience tells us that proline is the factor the eventually leads to an almost zero Lp(a) measurement.

In the initial product, Tower Heart Technology, proline was something like 400 mg per serving. Most people needing a therapeutic dosage would take two servings of HT daily, or 800 mg of proline. These results were miraculous, but we really didn't measure or study Lp(a).

I know that some alternative doctors recommend 2000 mg (2 g) of proline, but I am not sure of the basis of this recommendation.

It would be nice to know the amount of proline in the blood, the turn-over, etc. For me, the higher my Lp(a), the more proline I would consider.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#33  Post by Frodo » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:32 am

ofonorow wrote:
I don't know. What I think I know is that unlike lysine (which is essential, meaning all our lysine comes from the diet) our bodies can make proline, and my pet "theory" is that as we age, we make less, like everything else, leading to more atherosclerosis.

So how do you determine the "right" amount of proline? I have been using Lp(a) because our experience tells us that proline is the factor the eventually leads to an almost zero Lp(a) measurement.

In the initial product, Tower Heart Technology, proline was something like 400 mg per serving. Most people needing a therapeutic dosage would take two servings of HT daily, or 800 mg of proline. These results were miraculous, but we really didn't measure or study Lp(a).

I know that some alternative doctors recommend 2000 mg (2 g) of proline, but I am not sure of the basis of this recommendation.

It would be nice to know the amount of proline in the blood, the turn-over, etc. For me, the higher my Lp(a), the more proline I would consider.


Hello Owen, look at my post 29. The amount of proline in my blood is 212 nmol/ml. Reference value ranges from 97 to 330 nmol/ml.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#34  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:26 am

We are the vitamin C foundation - not the amino acid foundation :o I don't know where these reference ranges come from, but probalby a bell curve of previous measurements. Since your blood proline is in the middle, I don't see the problem? And I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with the higher than normal lysine, but I suspect that is fine. (The reason livestock are given lysine is because the amino acid is usually the limiting factor in growth. When lysine is lacking, general growth is inhibited).
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#35  Post by Frodo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:10 am

Owen
I've got my new blood values today. Lp(a) remains at 57 mg/dl. Since January lp(a) declined from 87 (January) to 49 (April) and remains now at 57 mg/dl (a little more than in April). I took about 10 grams VC, 6-8 grams lysine, 1,5-2 grams proline, 1 gram niacine and 500 mg carnitine. Should I take more C? I didn't reach bowel intolerance with 10 grams.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#36  Post by ofonorow » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:29 am

First, vitamin E is very important, especially in someone who has elevated Lp(a) (risk factor).

My guess is that you probably require more vitamin C given that 10 grams creates no reaction. The Jaffe Calibration/Cleanse, i.e. the highest oral one-time amount every 15 minutes until the watery discharge, might be worthwhile to gauge how much vitamin C your are able to metabolize. (If you try that, let us know how much C you had to take.)

Assuming the 57 Lp(a) score is measured, not calculated, then taking Lp(a) binding inhibitors (e.g. vitamin C, lysine and proline) make a lot of sense, whether or not the Lp(a) being produced declines.

One other thing is that the danger of 57 mg/dl depends on how many and the size of the Lp(a) particles. The size lf Lp(a) is not uniform. This is probably the reason that they changed to particles (e.g. nmol/l) rather than weight (mg/dl). A fewer number of large molecules are not as much risk as a larger number of smaller Lp(a) particles - though they both might have the same weight.

Atherotech (apparently now defunct) solved this by reporting Lp(a) as the weight of the same number of ordinary LDL particles.

Are you taking any drugs?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#37  Post by francisunderwood » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:32 am

Do you think more proline would lower the lpa?

Thanks for adding your numbers, I always want to see the results.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#38  Post by francisunderwood » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:35 am

Owen, I read on here that vitamin E can lower the effect of vitamin c, is that correct? If so is there a way to take them separately to avoid this?

I would have asked on the other thread but it's locked.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#39  Post by Johnwen » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:58 am

Hate to sound like a broken record on the subject of Thyroid.
When it comes to LP(a) there seems to be a connection!
I let these links tell the story! There’s a lot more of these out there!

PDF FILES:

https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j ... 3-0018.pdf

http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/cl ... 6.full.pdf

ONLINE VEIWS:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3972592/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10601541

Just perhaps these inherited ideas are actually the results of a under active thyroid. Since if your at the high end of the lab test your already in the danger zone of a failing thyroid! However most doc’s will just see your in range and do nothing about it. Then they’ll send you on your way with a script for statins, which only will make matters worst! Then they’ll blame high cholesterol for all your problems! When the real problem is at the end of their pen!!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#40  Post by Frodo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:13 am

ofonorow wrote:First, vitamin E is very important, especially in someone who has elevated Lp(a) (risk factor).

My guess is that you probably require more vitamin C given that 10 grams creates no reaction. The Jaffe Calibration/Cleanse, i.e. the highest oral one-time amount every 15 minutes until the watery discharge, might be worthwhile to gauge how much vitamin C your are able to metabolize. (If you try that, let us know how much C you had to take.)

Assuming the 57 Lp(a) score is measured, not calculated, then taking Lp(a) binding inhibitors (e.g. vitamin C, lysine and proline) make a lot of sense, whether or not the Lp(a) being produced declines.

One other thing is that the danger of 57 mg/dl depends on how many and the size of the Lp(a) particles. The size lf Lp(a) is not uniform. This is probably the reason that they changed to particles (e.g. nmol/l) rather than weight (mg/dl). A fewer number of large molecules are not as much risk as a larger number of smaller Lp(a) particles - though they both might have the same weight.

Atherotech (apparently now defunct) solved this by reporting Lp(a) as the weight of the same number of ordinary LDL particles.

Are you taking any drugs?


Thank you, Owen
Despite my mci last year, I don't take all the drugs. Except baby aspirin (every second day 35 mg). I want to cut it too, next month. And (look at johnwens answer) I take indeed l-thyrox. Of course I regularly take vitamin E (800 IU). And the lab has really measured nmol lp(a). Value is 137 nmol.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#41  Post by francisunderwood » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:27 pm

Frodo wrote:
Thank you, Owen
Despite my mci last year, I don't take all the drugs. Except baby aspirin (every second day 35 mg). I want to cut it too, next month. And (look at johnwens answer) I take indeed l-thyrox. Of course I regularly take vitamin E (800 IU). And the lab has really measured nmol lp(a). Value is 137 nmol.


What type of Vitamin E do you take?

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#42  Post by Frodo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:53 pm

francisunderwood wrote:
Frodo wrote:
Thank you, Owen
Despite my mci last year, I don't take all the drugs. Except baby aspirin (every second day 35 mg). I want to cut it too, next month. And (look at johnwens answer) I take indeed l-thyrox. Of course I regularly take vitamin E (800 IU). And the lab has really measured nmol lp(a). Value is 137 nmol.


What type of Vitamin E do you take?


Vitamin E complex from Greenfood and tocotrienols from Now.

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#43  Post by francisunderwood » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:47 pm

Frodo wrote:
Vitamin E complex from Greenfood and tocotrienols from Now.



That mix of tocotrienols is exactly what I have been looking for and appreciate your guidance. How many of the 50mg softgels do you take per day?

I can't seem to find the Greenfood complex, where do you get those?

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#44  Post by Frodo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:55 pm

I get it from amazon

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Re: German trying to use PT to lower Lp(a) without success

Post Number:#45  Post by Frodo » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:44 am

Owen, please look at post 40. Do you think it could be caused by the medications (aspirin and thyroxin)?
Lp(a) didn't decline further until now. OK. I think it needs time. But there are other good news: Ejection fraction has increased to 55-60 %. And the part of my heartmuscle, that was damaged by mci, has started to work, unexpected. I'm happy.


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