JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:21 am

Thank you for posting. Assume this study is true and accurate.

Statins don't reduce calcium scores (probably increase them)

Over 200 medline studies show that common heart drugs, such as Warfarin and Heparin (vitamin K blockers) cause rapid calcification of heart and arterial "soft" tissues. (We've post the links many times)

Ergo, could we not conclude that this study "proves" that Cardiology's standard treatments cause heart attacks and death within 10 years :evil:

Corollary: The reason those with high blood levels of vitamin K live so long - is probably because of vitamin K's hormone-like effect moving calcium from soft tissues into bones. See:
http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2014/9/The-Surprising-Longevity-Benefits-of-Vitamin-K/Page-01
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#3  Post by Alafairsmom » Wed May 17, 2017 5:29 am

Is there any harm in taking a second super K (vitamin K, not abbreviation for potassium) if the coronary calcium burden is profound? Total CAC score=1426.93. RCA is 1134.28. (explains the angina!) am on full PT protocol using a high powered mix (sorry, FDA, not naming names) then pills/caps to round out all the recommended supplementation in Ch 7 of PM. At BT of C with 9000 mg of C in mixture, 6 scoops in 6 divided doses. On the "good stuff" since 4-12-17. I was taking 15000 of C in 3 to 4 divided doses as buffered C capsules with no BT issues, but apparently there was a lot of filler. No stents, angioplasty, surgeries. No statins (gave me T2 diabetes, thanks Big Harma--and dad) and only Rx meds are Imdur 60 mg 2x daily and nitro SL as needed. Still having angina, but do feel better overall, especially at rest, but minimal exertion such as carrying groceries still causes angina, easily and quickly relieved by nitro SL. I can go days with no pain, then have several days WITH pain. Being patient with the process, open to supplemental suggestions. On Atkins/Bernstein diet, A1c 5.8, no meds, no insulin. Thanks.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#4  Post by pamojja » Wed May 17, 2017 7:14 am

Alafairsmom wrote:Is there any harm in taking a second super K (vitamin K, not abbreviation for potassium) if the coronary calcium burden is profound? Total CAC score=1426.93.


Only good, the more the better. Though there is no blood-marker for K2. Some guys use undercarboxylated Osteacalcin as approximation. In their experience no amount of vitamin K brings that to 0 (<1.5 normal range), which would be beneficial against calcification.

I took in average 3.5mg K1, 13mg K2-mk4 and 0.35 mg of K2-mk7 daily during the last 8 years. No side-effects at all. Except, that I got a 60% walking-disability revoked (due to a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta).

Loads of references to the benefits with no bad sites on that side:

http://www.k-vitamins.com/

By the way, the owner of that side took up to 10mg K1, 100mg K2-mk4 and 10mg of K2-mk7, and continually reversed his CAC score over many years. Such continual high doses haven't even been studied yet, yet even at such astronomic doses still no side-effects.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#5  Post by Alafairsmom » Wed May 17, 2017 9:20 am

Thanks pamojja! I will check out the reference as soon as I can. I'll up the dose. Congrats on your improvement.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#6  Post by Alafairsmom » Wed May 17, 2017 6:35 pm

Pamojja, that link is intense. Thanks. Definitely upping the K. A lot.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Thu May 18, 2017 5:13 am

Alafairsmom wrote:Pamojja, that link is intense. Thanks. Definitely upping the K. A lot.


Apropos A, don't forget vitamin A. That's one point I disagree with him: He asserts that daily carrots would supply plenty. But in fact, up to 50% of the population can't convert beta-carotene to retinol. If you don't believe, just test your retinol serum levels. Even taking the 25.000 IU of retinol as recommended by Pauling and daily carrots brought my serum levels just above low of normal.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#8  Post by Alafairsmom » Thu May 18, 2017 5:54 am

I sent an email to him yesterday asking about the correct ADK ratio. I saw his comment about the carrots. I'd appreciate your feedback on this, too, and any other suggestions are welcome. I'm taking A9, and over the past couple of days can't tolerate the 6 scoops a day, hit BT at 3. Even liposomal is not appearing to be much better tolerated. Although it can be problematic during work hours, I'm doing much of it early am and once I am home for the day, still getting it all in. I do enjoy the powder combo rather than the cup o' pills. Thanks once again.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#9  Post by pamojja » Thu May 18, 2017 6:35 am

I never usedAscorsine-9® Formula, or would even for free.

3,000 mg Vitamin C (as L-ascorbic acid)
3,000 mg* L-lysine
1,000 mg Chondroitin sulfate CS/C
1,000 mg L-taurine
500 mg L-proline
8,500 IU Vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate)
422 IU Vitamin E (as d-alpha- tocopheryl acetate)
200 mg L-arginine
50 mg Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCl)
150 mg Magnesium**
844 mg Creatine**
3 mg Vitamin B2 (as riboflavin)
400 mcg Folic acid
Stevia


At 59,95 per month it its a terrible rip-of while using the cheapest versions of vitamins and not enough doses. But what really concerns me is its folic acid. Which again, can't be metabolised by up to 50% of the population to active methylfolate. Even blocking receptors, so food folates don't get absorbed anymore at high enough doses. A simple serum homocysteine will tell if you're affected. But overall the ratios are completely off for any individualized regime.

Of that ingredients - not considering all other vitamins, most minerals, other beneficial amino-acids and plant extracts - I take about 20 g of pure ascorbic acid powder each day.
6 g lysine
Chondroitin sulfate would need a maintenance dose of at least 1.5 g. Too expensive where I life. Take 3g MSM and some DSMO instead.
3 g taurine
2 g proline
25000 IU vitamin retinol
about 330 mg alpha-tocopherol, 280 mg γ-, δ-, β-tocopherols alltogether, and 100 mg tocotrienols
6 g of arginine, including precursors, like AAKG and citrulline malate
160 mg of B6, half of it the better pyrodoxal (P-5'-P)
2 g of elemental Mg
2 g creatine
130 mg of B2, half of it the better R-5'-P
2.2 mg methylfolate (NO folic acid)
and stevia extract

by using bulk powders and reduced overstock-sales even cheaper than A9. In my view the incredible more efforts in getting individually optimized doses really pays. And you always can leave out offenders, adapt doses, without much ado.

Take the powders in water about 20 min. before lunch, dinner and before bed (only eat twice) together with water solubles cupsules. And fat solubles with meals.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#10  Post by Alafairsmom » Sat May 20, 2017 10:44 am

Pamojja, sorry for the delay in responding. It was a busy work week, and I wanted to respond on my PC rather than my phone; I needed an actual keyboard and copy/paste capabilities, and wanted to decrease fumble fingers.

I'm a little confused about the objection to the cost and not enough doses on the A-9. I am not taking a single dose of 2 scoops, but take 3x that, so my actual daily intake from A9 is this (if my math is correct):

9,000 mg Vitamin C (as L-ascorbic acid)
9,000 mg* L-lysine
3,000 mg Chondroitin sulfate CS/C (exceeds your minimum recommendation)
3,000 mg L-taurine (about the same as yours)
1500 mg L-proline (yours is 500 mg more than mine)
25,500 IU Vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) (about the same as yours)
1266 IU Vitamin E (as d-alpha- tocopheryl acetate)
600 mg L-arginine
150 mg Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCl)
450 mg Magnesium**
2532 mg Creatine**
12 mg Vitamin B2 (as riboflavin)
1200 mcg Folic acid
Stevia


In addition to the above, I am taking:
Vitamin E (around 1000 mg more)
L-Carnitine, 2000 mg
L-Argenine 2000 mg
Magnesium taurate 1000 mg
CoQ10 300 mg
One Multivitamin (went with the lowest manganese that I could find)
Two Super B Complex
Vitamin K2 (now taking 2 LEF Super K in am and pm)
Vitamin D3 4000 mg (my D3 level was low end of normal, barely within range)
and
Melatonin sustained release, 5 mg at night. On bad nights I wake up at 1 or 2 am and if I can't go back to sleep will take a second one, but not at or after 3. I hate it when it kicks in as the AM alarm goes off.

I've added 2 packets of LivOn Liposomal C (1000 mg each) at bedtime and so far am tolerating it okay. I tried (ascorbic acid) C powder, and have BT issues with 1000 mg at a time. I originally stared with buffered AA capsules and got up to around 15000 a day in 3 divided doses, no problem, but got hit hard when I took 2 scoops of A9 when I got it. I am positive I need more C, and that BT issue does not mean I am saturated, just can't take more right now. I do keep trying once I am home from work, and on weekends.


I priced the Koncentrated K,and and 60 tablets is around $50 per bottle of 60 (both on Amazon and the Koncentrated K site have it as around $45, with $5.95 shipping); that is one single addition for almost the cost of the A9 with all the other supplements compbined. For now I will be taking the Super K from LEF as I have some left in the first bottle, and have a second one left.

I understand I am new to this, and acknowledge I have big gaps in my understanding. I'm trying to learn as much as I can. I did read about the issues with folic acid, and there is some conflicting information out there. Of course there is also a mass of conflicting information about Vitamin C, so I am trying to take it in judiciously. Linus Pauling's "prescription" was 1 or 2 Super B daily. My Super B does have folic acid in it. I can add the homocysteine to my next labs. I'm not supposed to get them tested until September, but I can request a new batch now, and test again as the MD requested in September. I did not get LPa tested earlier, so that's getting added to the lab slip.I'm not trying to educate my docs, but they are being pretty tolerant about my refusal to follow their allopathic recommendations, and are letting me have labs I want for now, at least.

Other than the methyfolate, and the chondroitin sulfate, it looks to me as though I'm in the ball park. I'm not understanding where the ratios are off, but again, I know I am new at this and might not be seeing what you are telling me.

I don't use sugar, things that turn to sugar, and have really scarce use of artificial sweeteners. Coffee and water (plenty) are my only beverages (occasional herbal teas but I don't enjoy them, so don't bother.) I do take the A9 before meals, and most of the rest with a meal that does have fat. As it happens, I do usually eat twice, lunch and dinner. I do have a healthy dollop of heavy whipping cream in my morning coffee, and usually eat a BabyBel cheese with AM pills, so am thinking I have the fat content covered for the fat soluble supplements.

Pamojja, I really do appreciate your responses, and the time you are taking to explain.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#11  Post by pamojja » Sun May 21, 2017 7:50 am

Alafairsmom wrote:I'm a little confused about the objection to the cost and not enough doses on the A-9. I am not taking a single dose of 2 scoops, but take 3x that, so my actual daily intake from A9 is..


So if you take actually 3 times the daily dose, 6 scoops in total, and you're actually paying 179,85 a month? I couldn't afford that much, but of course I'm Ok with that, if it's fine with you.

30 servings per jar
*Values are per serving.
Serving size is 2 scoops per day in divided doses.
(Scoop is included in jar.)


I priced the Koncentrated K,and and 60 tablets is around $50 per bottle of 60 (both on Amazon and the Koncentrated K site have it as around $45, with $5.95 shipping); that is one single addition for almost the cost of the A9 with all the other supplements compbined.


But with this evaluation it rather seems you confuse 3 scoops and 1.5 the daily dose of arcorsine-9. Still, don't understand how in this case 22,50 (for a month daily dose of KconcentratedK) would be almost the cost of 89,93 (also a month worth) of arcosine-9 costs? Still getting half of what you thought. Shipping costs can substantially be reduced by buying a whole years worth.

My Super B does have folic acid in it. I can add the homocysteine to my next labs.


LEF sells a cheap bioactive-B-complex without folic acid, with many of the more bioavailable B-vitamins in it. Also sell a good Two-per-day multi without copper and little manganese, again without folic acid and with bioavailable B-vitamins. Price goes down substancially if you shop with them during overstock-sales, or at the end of year super-sale. Buying more at once brings the price down again.

I don't ever tell what to do. Only what I would do in your case. Homocysteine testing in this case would be priority.

I'm not understanding where the ratios are off, but again,..

I originally stared with buffered AA capsules and got up to around 15000 a day in 3 divided doses, no problem, but got hit hard when I took 2 scoops of A9 when I got it. I am positive I need more C, and that BT issue does not mean I am saturated, just can't take more right now.


Just one example, the expensive arcosine-9 would give you with at a 3 times daily dose 9 g lysine and 9 g ascorbic acid. Usually 6 g of lysine and 18 g of ascorbic acid are needed with CVD. You couldn't go there with arcosine-9, because you get issues already at much lower doses. And you the heck can't single out the actual offender with arcosine-9, because beside the ascorbic acid it could be any of the other ingredients which is actually offending in your case.


In my case arcosine-9 is out of question because of issues with homocysteine and it being essential not to get any folic acid (which is also in fortified foods), but methylfolate and methylcobalamin instead. In your case you could, if without homocysteine issues and sorted out which ingredient is offending you, just adjust the dose to 4 scoops (which would give just the right dose of lysine), and/or take the ingredients you need more of additionally, individually.

One more thing, Linus Pauling said: 'Don't miss a single day' taking vitamin C. Just calculated for fun that in the 8 years of consuming ascorbic acid, it already amounts to more than my body weight. You rather wouldn't want such amounts in capsules, which always come with fillers. Use pure ascorbic acid powder with a sprinkle of sodium bicarbonate instead

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#12  Post by Alafairsmom » Sun May 21, 2017 9:14 am

Thanks Pamojja. I have vitamin c powder, too. I'm pretty sure it's the C, because I have taken 1/4 teaspoon (1000 mg) a couple of times in 8 oz water in very separated doses. Hits pretty quickly, when taking on an empty stomach without any other supplements. I hear what you are saying. Thanks for the excellent info.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#13  Post by Alafairsmom » Mon May 22, 2017 10:07 am

Pamojja I had the nicest talk with Patrick at Koncentrated K. Thanks for the recommendation.

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Re: JAMA Cardiology: ANY coronary calcium signals heart disease and increases risk of heart attack within 10 years

Post Number:#14  Post by pamojja » Mon May 22, 2017 10:45 am

Alafairsmom wrote:Thanks for the recommendation.


Great you found out about that too. :D


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