Heard that Vitamin C May be Harmful for Diabetics

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Heard that Vitamin C May be Harmful for Diabetics

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:49 am

Hi!
I have been learning so much about vitamin c and appreciate all the work you do. I learned about how taking high dose vitamin c with lysine can help prevent or even reverse atherosclerosis! I decided to start this therapy with my mom, instead of giving her a statin.

My concern is that she has type 2 diabetes.

In researching further, I've come across very conflicting things about giving high dose vitamin c to people who are diabetic. I've even read that it can be harmful, because of how vitamin c interacts with cell activity in people who have diabetes. So then I stopped giving it to her. But she's also not taking the statin. So I'm feeling unsure about what the truth is regarding vitamin c and diabetics, and what is the healthiest thing to do for my mom.
Could you give some advice? Thank you very much. God Bless!


Great question and unfortunately, I know more than I wish I did.

First, thanks to a web site established by a former Type II diabetic, Thomas Smith, and his paper printed in the Australian periodical Nexus, and available at this link, http://healingmatters.com/deception.htm , I believe that it is possible to treat and reverse Type II diabetes. The Smith protocol involves FATS. Removing them, then slowly re-introducing healthy natural fats (and avoiding all unnatural TRANS FATS.) His theory makes sense, and may explain some of the problems Type IIs have re: Vitamin C. (Vitamin C, like glucose, requires insulin to enter healthy cells. In Type II, the cells, or more correctly, cell membranes, are not healthy so vitamin C may also be blocked.)

So reducing sugar and increasing vitamin C is a good strategy - after removing the cause of the type II - unnatural fats. (Saturated fats are not the issue, it is the transfat - adding the Hydrogen to unsaturated fats to extend their shelf life.)

There have been reports that those with kidney malfunction should limit their vitamin C intake... (Again, there are ways to improve if not cure kidney malfunction, include End Stage Renal Disease (thank you eDOC!) making any interaction with high vitamin C moot.)

In Summary,

Remove anything "in a box" from her diet, e.g. ALL transfats. Zero is "more" than NO TRANSFATS on the label (because of rounding).
Slowly add Omega 3/6 and maybe 9 essential fatty acids in the correct ratio.
Reduce blood glucose - Richard Bernstein is the oldest living TYpe I, and his books (e.g. The DIABETES SOLUTION) are excellent resources for Diabetics - except for one thing. His expertise is blood sugar control. He noticed that vitamin C affects blood sugar measurements, and on this basis, advises his patients not to take a lot of vitamin C (Bad advice, and he wonders why the only condition he hasn't be able to control in his patients is Heart Disease.)

Finally, as you are correcting her diabetes, slowly work up on the vitamin C and lysine. And please report back what happens.

And welcome to the field of ORTHOMOLECULAR NUTRITION.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Heard that Vitamin C May be Harmful for Diabetics

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:47 am

Thank you very much for your reply! I will try to learn more about trans fats (thank you so much for that info!)..... our situation is very challenging, because my mom lives by herself, and isn't managing her diabetes very well on her own. I do what I can by visiting her several times a week, to try and keep her sugars under control. She is insulin dependent, taking both fast and slow acting, in addition to several other "pill" medications for her diabetes.

You might have already read this article, but here is the link in case you're interested. It is what prompted me to stop giving my mom high dose vitamin c, until I learned more. http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/too-much-vitamin-c-not-good-for-diabetics-hearts/

I will need to read up about trans fats..... I've known they are not good for you, but how amazing to learn that eliminating these from your diet can be so healing for diabetics. It's very difficult, because she lives alone and isn't very motivated to eat healthy or cook for herself. If you have the time, could you possibly send me a list of good food options for her?

Also, she is on a prescription fish oil called Vascepa-- is this full of the Omega 3/6 you're suggesting? It's all so confusing to me, trying to learn all at once! And I feel like it's important to start correcting as soon as we can, because her small dense LDL particles are dangerously high.

Thank you so much for all you do.


Any food that doesn't come in a box.

That web site prevents copying - but there is one paragraph that illustrates the problem with that study... " Diabetics who reported taking more than 300 mg had more heart disease...." Or were they taking more because they had heart disease?

This has the feel of a typical anti-vitamin C "hit piece" designed to keep people sick, which feeds the pharmaceutical industry. I have learned to ignore most questionnaire studies that don't also report on blood and/or tissue levels of vitamin C. In every one of these "blood level" types of studies, higher vitamin C, (like higher vitamin K and glutathione levels) has been shown to reduce mortality by all causes.

In other words, the more vitamin C, the longer you live.

In my opinion, diabetics probably require MORE vitamin C than most people, because of the insulin issue.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Heard that Vitamin C May be Harmful for Diabetics

Post Number:#3  Post by francisunderwood » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:34 am

It took me a few minutes but I pulled this from the study. Can someone tell me if the age and energy intake might be the issue?
The link is here: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/5/ ... nsion.html



TABLE 4
Relative risks (RRs) and 95% CIs for mortality from cardiovascular disease, coronary artery disease, and stroke according to quintile of vitamin C intake from supplements in postmenopausal women with diabetes in the Iowa Women's Health Study, 1986–2000

Vitamin C intake from supplements (mg/d) P for trend
0 1–99 100–299 ≥300
Cardiovascular disease
    Cases 173 29 29 50
    Person-years 14 907 3870 2854 3212
    Incidence density (per 1000 person-years) 11.6 7.5 10.2 15.6
    Age- and energy intake–adjusted RR (95% CI) 1.00 0.62 (0.42, 0.92) 0.84 (0.56, 1.24) 1.30 (0.95, 1.79) 0.07
    Multivariate RR1 (95% CI) 1.00 0.66 (0.43, 1.01) 1.00 (0.67, 1.51) 1.51 (1.08, 2.10) <0.01
    Multivariate RR2 (95% CI) 1.00 0.70 (0.45, 1.15) 1.01 (0.69, 1.65) 1.69 (1.09, 2.44) <0.01
Coronary artery disease
    Cases 105 19 17 34
    Person-years 14 907 3870 2854 3212
    Incidence density (per 1000 person-years) 7.0 4.9 6.0 10.6
    Age- and energy intake–adjusted RR (95% CI) 1.00 0.67 (0.41, 1.10) 0.81 (0.49, 1.35) 1.47 (1.00, 2.16) 0.04
    Multivariate RR1 (95% CI) 1.00 0.70 (0.41, 1.20) 1.01 (0.60, 1.71) 1.69 (1.13, 2.54) <0.01
    Multivariate RR2 (95% CI) 1.00 0.80 (0.45, 1.44) 1.14 (0.65, 1.98) 2.07 (1.27, 3.38) <0.01
Stroke
    Cases 31 6 7 13
    Person-years 14 907 3870 2854 3212
    Incidence density (per 1000 person-years) 2.1 1.6 2.5 4.0
    Age- and energy intake–adjusted RR (95% CI) 1.00 0.73 (0.30, 1.74) 1.11 (0.49, 2.53) 1.89 (0.99, 3.62) 0.04
    Multivariate RR1 (95% CI) 1.00 0.84 (0.34, 2.05) 1.18 (0.49, 2.87) 2.17 (1.09, 4.32) 0.02
    Multivariate RR2 (95% CI) 1.00 1.05 (0.39, 2.81) 1.33 (0.51, 3.43) 2.37 (1.01, 5.57) 0.04
↵1 Adjusted for age, total energy intake, waist-hip ratio, BMI, physical activity, cigarette smoking, alcohol consumption, education, marital status, hormone replacement therapy, type of diabetes medication, and duration of diabetes.

↵2 Adjusted for the variables in footnote 1 plus intakes of saturated fat, polyunsaturated fat, trans fat, vitamin E, β-carotene, folate, and vitamin C from food.

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Re: Heard that Vitamin C May be Harmful for Diabetics

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:51 am

Again, so what? From a questionnaire, if i was asking about the type of toaster or gym shoe, and found that people wearing a certain brand had more CVD, does that mean that brand of gym shoe CAUSES the cvd? Or, do people with CVD find that brand of gym shoe easier to walk with?

And if only science these days were "real" science...

We know that any med journal that reports honestly on the benefits of vitamin C risks being shut down. The money involved is beyond comprehension.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Heard that Vitamin C May be Harmful for Diabetics

Post Number:#5  Post by francisunderwood » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:39 am

My point is that I don't know how to read the data and was hoping you or someone else would. It seems to me that if you could disprove this paper based on the study that would be an easy win.

Why does the incidences of CVD go down with the age and energy intake with people getting 1-99 and 100-299 mg/d compared to those taking no Vitamin C but then go way up when the age and energy goes up in the over 300 category?

Please look and explain if I'm reading that correctly. If I am then it appears they put the heaviest and oldest people in the category then blamed vitamin C.

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Re: Heard that Vitamin C May be Harmful for Diabetics

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:56 am

Good observation!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


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