Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

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Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:51 am

Hello Owen,

I came across the Vitamin C Foundation and your forum, and have some questions regarding lipoprotein (a).

I am 54 years old and for the last 15 years now, and I have been made aware that I have high lipo a. My most recent blood work indicated that it is still high: 256 nmol/L The rest of my cholesterol panel looks pretty good……total: 195, triglycerides: 56, HDL: 63, VLDL: 11, LDL: 121 (too high)

My husband (59) also had some blood work done, and we found out that he, too, has high lipo a: 272 nmol/L total: 186, triglycerides: 89, HDL: 44, VLDL: 18, LDL: 124

Our doctor, who is more holistic, suggested we take 5,000mg of Vitamin C; 3,000mg of L-Lysine; work up to 1,500mg of Niacin (nicotinic acid) and 325mg aspirin. We really don’t like the aspirin or niacin….stomach upset and flushing, ugh!

SO, we just ordered the Cardio-C and All-C from Intelligent Vitamin C.

In addition to those 2 products, can you please advise as to what else we should be taking?

And also, what is the best diet for lowering lipoprotein (a) …..I’ve heard nothing really helps, because it’s genetic. I am also personally trying to lose 20 extra pounds! (I am 5’9” and weigh 165 pounds)

I really appreciate your help and input! Thank you so much for all you are doing to help so many people! You are what this health industry REALLY needs!

Blessings,
M


As far as the weight loss - you might peruse this topic http://www.vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13338
I don't think the aspirin recommendation is warranted, but any risk is somewhat mitigated because you are also taking vitamin C.
I like the niacin very much, and you can find the no-flush versions. (There are many ways Niacin can help you and the book NIACIN: THE REAL STORY by Hoffer and Saul is an education.)

I wanted to post this because your exceptionally elevated Lp(a) numbers make no sense given your other relatively normal cholesterol numbers.
First, what laboratory?
Second, what are the ranges? I am used to 90 nmol/l being "normal".
Third, see if you can tell from the report whether the values of Lp(a) are measured or "computed."

Lp(a) is a subset of LDL cholesterol. You and your husband's LDL is around 120 mg/dl. The nmol/l is supposed to be a measure of particles (rather than mass) and it would mean you have an exceptional number of small (thus dangerous) particles of Lp(a). I simply don't believe it. Do you or your husband have any symptoms of heart disease?

Lets assume the test is measured, accurate, and you and your husband have this queer genetic anomaly together, then the best thing to do is exactly what you are doing - taking high doses of the Lp(a) inhibitors lysine, vitamin C and proline.

As far as other supplements, take a look at the formula for Tower Ascorsine-9. When that had Vitamin K, I believe it had almost everything I would recommend. Turns out a good vitamin E is critical. Magnesium very important. And carnitine is supposed to lower Lp(a) according to Life Extension.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:54 am

Thank you Owen,

I am looking at the report again, from Lab Corp. I can’t determine if the Lpa is measured or “computed". The reference internal range is <75. As far as the other cholesterol numbers, the units are measured in mg/dL. YES, my husband and I agree with you that it’s very odd that we BOTH have high Lpa. He actually JUST got tested, since they don’t normally test for Lpa, but we were just curious and then very surprised that his Lpa is high, too.
I have had high Lpa for as long as I have known about it, (always above 200) and have tried the niacin and vitamin C but didn’t really keep up with it. Our doctor said that ONLY the flushing Niacin (nicotinic acid) works, the others don’t do any good for high Lpa. I DO have that book on Niacin, got it years ago, need to dig it out again. We don’t really have classic heart disease symptoms, don’t smoke, very little alcohol, pretty healthy and active. I have seen several cardiologists over the years, done a stress test, all came back normal. They are not concerned with the high Lpa because I don’t really have other symptoms. Once in a while, however, I get a little short winded/out of breath if I am walking up hills……then it’s hard to talk without heavy breathing. And sometimes I get a random odd feeling in my chest, a little flutter, maybe a little pressure, tiny pain. But not often, and it soon passes.


If those numbers are correct - and you are not taking much vitamin C - then you would be lucky to be alive, much less able to walk across the room.
Again, what lab tested the Lp(a) ? If a large national lab... then I doubt it.. I don't know if you can still get the VAP test from Life Extension, LEF.ORG, but doing so might put your mind at rest, or another lab that actually MEASURES Lp(a).

They no longer have the VAP test - and I think the company is out of business - so I cannot vouch for this LEF version of the test, but there is a good chance it would be measured for $52 http://www.lifeextension.com/Vitamins-Supplements/itemLC120188/Lipoprotein-a-Lpa-Blood-Test

It might give you peace of mind because I predict the score would be a lot lower.


Interesting about the lack of B5 and weight gain! I stopped getting my period for the last 3 years due to menopause, and losing weight seems impossible now no matter what I do. Takes me forever to lose very little weight, and then when I DO….I gain it right back again! Low libido too. So frustrating! How much B5/pantothenic acid should I take?? And what brand would you recommend? I am very anxious to get started with that!


From the Leung paper, he tested 100 people for one year taking 10,000 mg daily (10 g) although in another paper, to cure acne, he mentioned that some people required up to 20 g of vitamin B5 daily. No side effects. NOW foods is an excellent brand. (We hope to have our own weight loss drink - on the order of Cardio-C, that will provide the 10 grams daily - soon. I am taking 2,500 mg - 4 X Daily, of vitamin B5 plus Pantethine. You must restrict calories, and the idea is to efficiently burn fat, so I gather you should also reduce carbs - follow and Atkins-like low carb diet.

Could you also please advise on how much to take of the Vitamin E, magnesium (what kind?), L-Carnitine? So the Tower Ascorsine-9 does not have the Vitamin K any longer? How much then should I supplement with Vitamin K?


My wife and I take one LEF.ORG Super-K daily - neither of us have ANY calcium on the FAST CT Scans.

The best vitamin E in the world, in my opinion, is Unique-E from A. C. Grace - original mixed tocopherol formula. Also available at LEF.ORG. Pauling recommended 400 to 800 iu. The president of A. C Grace recommended 2000 iu. This vitamin E has repeatedly been able to erase bad EKGs.

Absorbable magnesium - I've heard Dr. Levy recommends magnesium glycinate - and 300 to 500 mg seems appropriate. (Much more will cause fainting from low blood pressure)

Not sure of the dosage of carnitine, but you get some carnitine in meat. So if you are a vegetarian take more.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#3  Post by Johnwen » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:45 am

If those numbers are correct - and you are not taking much vitamin C - then you would be lucky to be alive, much less able to walk across the room.


I agree considering the measurement for LP(a) is µmol/L
So with a level of 272 nmol/L would equal out to .272 µmol/L
Converting .272 µmol/L to mg/dL equals 7.61 mg/dL which isn’t all that bad!!

But if you convert nmol/L to mg/dL (which is not feasible due to LP(a)’s structure) you would have a reading of 7619 mg/dL. Meaning what Owen said above!!

nmol/L = Nanomole/Liter (Billion)
µmol/L = Micromole/Liter (Million)

https://education.endocrine.org/system/ ... Ranges.pdf

Hope this helps!!
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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#4  Post by Lunes Payling » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:53 am

I missed something in the above johnwen - she said the normal was 70 - which implies nmol/L...

Here is some disappointing news, yet again, about Life Extension.


Thank you for all this info, Owen! I called Life Extension and they also use LabCorp, which is who we have consistently used for all past blood work, and with LabCorp, my Lpa has consistently come in over the 200 nmol/L range. Do you think LabCorp may not be accurate on that reading?

And I am also very confused as to why most cardiologists (at least the ones that I have seen) don’t worry about the high Lpa if the other cholesterol numbers are within a decent range? Maybe Big Pharma driven by handing out statin drugs like it’s candy?? It does scare me to think that my husband and I may be ticking time bombs, so we will just do the best we can. We are going to start with all the supplements you recommended and re-test with Life Extension in a couple of months. Please let me know when your weight loss formula comes out! Anything else you can suggest would be great!
Thank you very much,




The answer to this question is easy.

And I am also very confused as to why most cardiologists (at least the ones that I have seen) don’t worry about the high Lpa if the other cholesterol numbers are within a decent range?

They don't have a drug which lowers Lp(a).

And as it turns out the drugs they give, statins, are known to increase Lp(a). This information is in the Canadian versions of the US Medical Journals.


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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:08 pm

However in 2010 (7 years after the above article) Marcovina in the J Clin Lip reference cited above states: "The conversion factor from mg/dL to nmol/L varies from 2.85 for a small Lp(a) size to 1.85 for a large one. Therefore, a factor of 3.5 is too high, and we suggest a mean conversion factor of 2.4, even though the conversion can be more or less imprecise depending on the apo(a) size. However, the major problem of Lp(a) values is not the units used to report the results but is related to the inaccuracy of the methods that are affected by apo(a) size heterogeneity. These methods overestimate the levels of Lp(a) in individuals with large Lp(a) molecules and consequently underestimate the levels in individuals with small Lp(a) molecules.


Now it’s getting complicated, too say the least!!!
Question is: “What do you really want to know about your LP(a) Levels!

Care to join me in pulling our hair out???????? :? :?

http://www.lipidcenter.com/pdf/Entire_L ... xities.pdf
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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:48 am

Thus the conversion of 272 nmol/L to mg/dl is to divide by 2.4? Thus 113 ish (mg/dl)

The reported total LDL (first post) was 121. (mg/dl)

So it is possible, but means that the entire LDL measured was Lp(a)?

So to answer a question, no, I don't believe the Lp(a) reported is accurate.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#7  Post by skwoodwiva » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:35 pm

My 2 cents,
While far from the mainstream here, had I not avoided wheat & associated grains my LPa my be unmanageable as some of my blood type O acquaintances

Fish oil & niacin is best. I do 6 or more gr of IR a day.

BTW there is the aterialscolsis reversal vitamin-k mk7 2 year outcome study coming out soon. Search "VitaK-CAC Trial"

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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#8  Post by Frodo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:19 pm

I'm fighting the same problem. My lp(a) has risen to 0,92 g/l (= 92 mg/dl) according to the lab report. The previous value was measured by another lab at 49 mg/dl (limit 30 mg/dl). Strangely, the values in the lab I last used are regularly higher. Both labs measured with a nephelometer. However, nephelometry is probably a dubious method to measure lp(a). Anyway, I have my doubts that the values are correct. But I don't know a suitable lab in Germany.

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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#9  Post by Frodo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:40 pm

Owen
Which method is used to measure and not "computed" lp(a)?

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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#10  Post by skwoodwiva » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:04 pm

Lunes Payling wrote:I missed something in the above johnwen - she said the normal was 70 - which implies nmol/L...

Here is some disappointing news, yet again, about Life Extension.


Thank you for all this info, Owen! I called Life Extension and they also use LabCorp, which is who we have consistently used for all past blood work, and with LabCorp, my Lpa has consistently come in over the 200 nmol/L range. Do you think LabCorp may not be accurate on that reading?

And I am also very confused as to why most cardiologists (at least the ones that I have seen) don’t worry about the high Lpa if the other cholesterol numbers are within a decent range? Maybe Big Pharma driven by handing out statin drugs like it’s candy?? It does scare me to think that my husband and I may be ticking time bombs, so we will just do the best we can. We are going to start with all the supplements you recommended and re-test with Life Extension in a couple of months. Please let me know when your weight loss formula comes out! Anything else you can suggest would be great!
Thank you very much,




The answer to this question is easy.

And I am also very confused as to why most cardiologists (at least the ones that I have seen) don’t worry about the high Lpa if the other cholesterol numbers are within a decent range?

They don't have a drug which lowers Lp(a).

And as it turns out the drugs they give, statins, are known to increase Lp(a). This information is in the Canadian versions of the US Medical Journals.


Image

When showed this same Canadian doc to my Cardio, he flinched back that it did not mean ,edit, as much as cholesterol and keeping my LPa below 75 was fine.

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Re: Oddly High Lp(a) Measurements

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:37 am

Probably the first time he had ever read that
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


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