Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

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ChuckArbogast
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Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#1  Post by ChuckArbogast » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:38 am

I've been on Pauling Therapy, with a multitude of other vitamins and minerals for almost 2 years now and my lab results aren't improving like I thought they would. As some of you may know, I had a heart attack in early 2015 and discovered Pualing therapy and this site shortly after that. As you guessed, my doctor's want to control my cholesterol, specifically my LDL to "as low as possible". I know from this forum and other sources that cholesterol is not the cause of blockages but I can't convince my doctors of that. I ultimately stopped taking the statins they wanted me to take in May of 2016 because I am sure that they were causing me muscle aches as well as what I have read here and other places that they aren't good to take.

So, my here are my lab results for the last 3 times (April 2016 to November 2017) for references:
Cholesterol (Total)
- Range & Units: <= 200 mg/dL
- 4/28/2016 on 10mg Lipitor: 155
- 12/30/2016: 238
- 11/22/2017: 230
HDL
- Range & Units: 40 - 60 mg/dL
- 4/28/2016 on 10mg Lipitor: 40
- 12/30/2016: 45
- 11/22/2017: 45
LDL Calculated
- Range & Units: 0 - < 100 mg/dl
- 4/28/2016 on 10mg Lipitor: 101
- 12/30/2016: 155
- 11/22/2017: 163
Non HDL
- Range & Units: 0 - 130 mg/dl
- 4/28/2016 on 10mg Lipitor: 115
- 12/30/2016: 193
- 11/22/2017: 185
TG (Triglycerides)
- Range & Units: 30 - 150 mg/dL
- 4/28/2016 on 10mg Lipitor: 70
- 12/30/2016: 190
- 11/22/2017: 111
So, as you can see, my LDL is considered too high for me and they want me to come in and talk about taking statins again. I don't want too, but I don't know how to talk them out of it. I thought that my total cholesterol would drop to around 180 (this is what I think Owen stated) after taking Pauling Therapy for almost 2 years but it hasn't. I thought if it did, my LDL would me much lower too, but it isn't either. So, I do have a few questions.
What should I do to make these numbers lower?
Are my current number really bad?
What should I say to my doctors to convince them that I don't need to take statins and/or that my numbers are ok as they are?

Thanks for anyone's help on the matter,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:50 am

In my case numbers are still not perfect too, but have improved in average by 40% (LDL, HDL, trigs) through diet and supplementation alone. Moreover, could get rid of intermittent claudications symptoms from my PAD.

Also plain LDL doesn't tell the whole story, since it can be of the highly atherogenic small dense type, and less so large fluffy kind. Triglycerides close to 50 do indicate LDL is of the harmless kind, close to 150 the dangerous ones.

Triglycerides can be brought down with high dose fish oil (above 3 g of EPA/DHA content daily), but most effectively with a low carb diet.

How is your blood sugar, HbA1c?

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#3  Post by Joanna45 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:03 pm

What is your Lipoprotein a levels that is an indicator that your arteries are clogging my lipoprotein is 12 and was 100 when I started the Linus Pauling program ..also take super k from life extensions and niacin 500 mg..
Last edited by Joanna45 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#4  Post by ChuckArbogast » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:02 pm

pamojja wrote:In my case numbers are still not perfect too, but have improved in average by 40% (LDL, HDL, trigs) through diet and supplementation alone. Moreover, could get rid of intermittent claudications symptoms from my PAD.

Also plain LDL doesn't tell the whole story, since it can be of the highly atherogenic small dense type, and less so large fluffy kind. Triglycerides close to 50 do indicate LDL is of the harmless kind, close to 150 the dangerous ones.

Triglycerides can be brought down with high dose fish oil (above 3 g of EPA/DHA content daily), but most effectively with a low carb diet.

How is your blood sugar, HbA1c?

Pamojja,
Thanks for your reply. I take it from your reply that my Triglycerides are boarderline high and need to come down even further, is that right? As you can see, they have improved. I have been taking an Omega 3 supplement daily for the entire time on Pauling Therapy, but not at the dosage you recommend. You recommend a low carb diet, is that what you do? If so, what type? I have considered going Keto but don't want to be bothered about checking my ketones to make sure I am in Ketosis. Not sure if that is necessary though. Any thoughts about the diet?

In the labs I have, I don't have HbA1c numbers but do have glu (Glucose) numbers of 80 (4/28/2016), 94 (12/30/2016) & 79 (11/22/2017) and their acceptable ranges are 74-100 mg/dL. I think that similar to HbA1c that you are asking about, right?

Thanks again for your help and any additional info,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#5  Post by ChuckArbogast » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:08 pm

Joanna45 wrote:What is your Lipoprotein a levels that is an indicator that your arteries are clogging mine liproprtein is 12 and was 100 when I started the Linus Pauling program ..also take super k from life extensions and niacin 500 mg..

Joanna45,
Thanks for your reply. I have never had my Lipoprotein checked. I have asked my doctor about it but he wouldn't order it as he said it wasn't helpful. Unfortunately, my doctors are old school and aren't up for anything other than what they are taught. I'm not sure if I should really even go see him about these new numbers as I know what they are going to say, "get on statins", because they think that is the fix for heart disease.

I don't take super k from life extension but do take Vitamin K2 as MK-7 from Jarrow at a dosage of 180 mcg per day. I also take Vitamin B3 (Niacin-Flushing kind) from Life Extension at 1500 mg per day. I have been taking them both for a little over a year now.

Any other ideas?

Thanks again for your help,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#6  Post by Joanna45 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:14 pm

My doctor would not do the Lipoprotein a I went on line and used personalabs and they send you to a lab in your area to have it done only cost me around 50 dollars and the results were back in about a week..

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:02 am

ChuckArbogast wrote:I take it from your reply that my Triglycerides are boarderline high and need to come down even further, is that right? As you can see, they have improved. I have been taking an Omega 3 supplement daily for the entire time on Pauling Therapy, but not at the dosage you recommend. You recommend a low carb diet, is that what you do? If so, what type? I have considered going Keto but don't want to be bothered about checking my ketones to make sure I am in Ketosis. Not sure if that is necessary though. Any thoughts about the diet?

In the labs I have, I don't have HbA1c numbers but do have glu (Glucose) numbers of 80 (4/28/2016), 94 (12/30/2016) & 79 (11/22/2017) and their acceptable ranges are 74-100 mg/dL. I think that similar to HbA1c that you are asking about, right?

Thanks again for your help and any additional info,
Chuck


Yes, your triglycerides have indeed improved. Some more to go to not have to worry at all about high LDL.

Actually don't recommend low-carb. But to get a cheap blood-glucose meter (or rather one with cheap test-strips, they can add up) and regularly test post-prandial blood glucose for some time. For that you first have to find your highest spike after a meal (usually after 1 hour) by testing every 15 minutes. For example, 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 75 minutes and 90 minutes after a meal. And from then on at the time of your highest blood glucose spike after each meal. That teaches directly which food in what amounts spikes your glucose the most (and thereby drives Triglycerides the most; it's a individual thing - therefore the testing). By reducing or eliminating exactly those food Triglycerides come down most effectively.

The fasting glucose tests alone, you already have, can be deceptive. Because prost-prandial glucose spike could still reach into pre-diabetic areas, causing much higher mean levels. Which is also what HbA1c would tests, the average blood glucose levels during the last 3 months.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#8  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:06 am

Joanna45 wrote:My doctor would not do the Lipoprotein a I went on line and used personalabs and they send you to a lab in your area to have it done only cost me around 50 dollars and the results were back in about a week..

Joanna45,
Thanks for the info. I will see if personalabs uses anyone near me. If they do, I may have to use them to get my blood tests from now on.

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#9  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:10 am

pamojja wrote:
ChuckArbogast wrote:I take it from your reply that my Triglycerides are boarderline high and need to come down even further, is that right? As you can see, they have improved. I have been taking an Omega 3 supplement daily for the entire time on Pauling Therapy, but not at the dosage you recommend. You recommend a low carb diet, is that what you do? If so, what type? I have considered going Keto but don't want to be bothered about checking my ketones to make sure I am in Ketosis. Not sure if that is necessary though. Any thoughts about the diet?

In the labs I have, I don't have HbA1c numbers but do have glu (Glucose) numbers of 80 (4/28/2016), 94 (12/30/2016) & 79 (11/22/2017) and their acceptable ranges are 74-100 mg/dL. I think that similar to HbA1c that you are asking about, right?

Thanks again for your help and any additional info,
Chuck


Yes, your triglycerides have indeed improved. Some more to go to not have to worry at all about high LDL.

Actually don't recommend low-carb. But to get a cheap blood-glucose meter (or rather one with cheap test-strips, they can add up) and regularly test post-prandial blood glucose for some time. For that you first have to find your highest spike after a meal (usually after 1 hour) by testing every 15 minutes. For example, 45 minutes, 60 minutes, 75 minutes and 90 minutes after a meal. And from then on at the time of your highest blood glucose spike after each meal. That teaches directly which food in what amounts spikes your glucose the most (and thereby drives Triglycerides the most; it's a individual thing - therefore the testing). By reducing or eliminating exactly those food Triglycerides come down most effectively.

The fasting glucose tests alone, you already have, can be deceptive. Because prost-prandial glucose spike could still reach into pre-diabetic areas, causing much higher mean levels. Which is also what HbA1c would tests, the average blood glucose levels during the last 3 months.

Pamojja,
Thanks for the information. Do you have any recommendations on a tester and test strips? I have never used them at all before and don't know where to start.
So you don't recommend a low carb diet but I thought you suggested it in your previous post. I'm confused now.
Thanks for your help,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#10  Post by pamojja » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:30 am

ChuckArbogast wrote:Pamojja,
Thanks for the information. Do you have any recommendations on a tester and test strips? I have never used them at all before and don't know where to start.
So you don't recommend a low carb diet but I thought you suggested it in your previous post. I'm confused now.
Thanks for your help,
Chuck


You could google for different glucose meters to compare. I bought the only one which is resold in local supermarkets for € 14,-, 50 test strips for 19,90.

If you test you'll find that carbs are usually which raise post-prandial glucose the most. So no real contradiction to low-carb. The difference is in individual crab-sensitivity. Some to good with some carbs. But I even have to limit certain starch containing otherwise healthy vegetables. A small bowl of rice shoots my BG up to 200 mg/dl range.

You aim to never go above 140 mg/dl post-prandially. The lower the better.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#11  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:35 am

pamojja wrote:You could google for different glucose meters to compare. I bought the only one which is resold in local supermarkets for € 14,-, 50 test strips for 19,90.

If you test you'll find that carbs are usually which raise post-prandial glucose the most. So no real contradiction to low-carb. The difference is in individual crab-sensitivity. Some to good with some carbs. But I even have to limit certain starch containing otherwise healthy vegetables. A small bowl of rice shoots my BG up to 200 mg/dl range.

You aim to never go above 140 mg/dl post-prandially. The lower the better.

pamojja,
I can check on them. I thought you may have success with a certain brand due to accuracy/reliability along with cost efficient test strips.

I'm a little confused as to how to tell what would be causing a spike in the measured levels. I understand how taking a reading before eating would be the baseline but how can I determine what I ate cause the spike? So, for instance if I have a eat chicken and rice for dinner, was it the chicken or the rice that caused a spike? In this example, I know it should be the rice, but I hope I convey my question better given this example. For example, do fats and protein sources cause a spike? If not and only carbs, then what happens if there are multiple carb sources in the meal?

It seems to me, if what you are saying only eliminate and/or lower the sources of food that causes the levels to rise, then I would need to test every food item individually to see exactly what is doing what so I know for sure what it was and not a combination of things.

I understand that this is just to help lower Triglycerides, which in turn would change the LDL in my blood to the kind that is not as harmful, but I would also think this might help out in overall health as well as not eating foods that cause a rise in the levels would be easier on my body. Am I think about this the right way?

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:12 am

Back to the original post, you say "you have been on the Pauling therapy" and yet your total cholesterol is 230 !?! Something does not compute.

If your vitamin C were more optimal, your total cholesterol would be closer to 180 mg/dl.

So how much vitamin C are you taking daily?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#13  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:20 am

ofonorow wrote:Back to the original post, you say "you have been on the Pauling therapy" and yet your total cholesterol is 230 !?! Something does not compute.

If your vitamin C were more optimal, your total cholesterol would be closer to 180 mg/dl.

So how much vitamin C are you taking daily?

Owen,
Thanks for asking. For the entire time I have been on it I have been taking at least 4 grams per dose two times a day for a total of at least 8 grams per day. However, I used to take 4 grams per dose three times a day but it got difficult to take the dose while I was at work, so I stopped. Because of that, I sometimes take 6 grams per dose two times a day to compensate, but sometimes when I take the 6 grams dose, I start getting loose stools.

I take Ascorbic Acid in powder form from PurkBulk.com

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#14  Post by pamojja » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:59 am

ChuckArbogast wrote:
pamojja wrote:It seems to me, if what you are saying only eliminate and/or lower the sources of food that causes the levels to rise, then I would need to test every food item individually to see exactly what is doing what so I know for sure what it was and not a combination of things.


You understand it well. That's the reason I recommended a meter with cheap test-strips. You will need a lot of those strips. Since to test each individual food isn't practical, nor how we normally eat (should at least contain a bid of carbs, fats and protein). But usually each meal isn't totally different, and contains only few items changed at a time. And that is how you'll catch them with regular testin. Beside carbs, also portion size is a pertaining factor.

For raising bowel-tolerance it helps if you mix your ascorbic acid powder with not more half its weight of sodium bicarbonate.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#15  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:13 pm

pamojja wrote:You understand it well. That's the reason I recommended a meter with cheap test-strips. You will need a lot of those strips. Since to test each individual food isn't practical, nor how we normally eat (should at least contain a bid of carbs, fats and protein). But usually each meal isn't totally different, and contains only few items changed at a time. And that is how you'll catch them with regular testin. Beside carbs, also portion size is a pertaining factor.

For raising bowel-tolerance it helps if you mix your ascorbic acid powder with not more half its weight of sodium bicarbonate.

Thanks again for the info. So, if I understand you right, if normal or small portions are eaten, then normally only carbs influence the spike in the readings. However, a large portion size of protein and/or fats could also cause a large spike in the readings. Is that what you are saying? If so, it seems that a pure keto diet wouldn't be good unless you made sure you ate normal/small portions spread out to get your calories in for the day.

Just to be clear, I could go to a strict keto diet and naturally restrict the spikes in the readings due to the low carb intake, as long as my portion sizes of the protein and fat are normal or small. Is that correct? If so, that could be considered easier than testing to see what carbs impact the readings the most. I do think that your method may be better for long term use instead of going keto all the time.

Also, how long do you think it would take to lower my Triglycerides down to close to 50 if I was taking the approach you recommend or going full keto? Meaning, would it take 2 weeks or 2 months to see a considerable difference? Also, how quickly would it take to get your Triglycerides to go too high again? Meaning, if I was to eat a high carb food for a few days (over the upcoming holidays), would that totally wreck it or would it take a longer period of bad eating to make it high again?

As far as raising bowel tolerance, do you mean that I should mix 4 grams of ascorbic acid with 2 grams of sodium bicarbonate (aka. Baking Soda)? If so, how is that going to increase my bowel tolerance? I'm not saying you are wrong at all, I just like to understand how things work for my own benefit as well as potentially helping others.

Thanks again for all of your help,
Chuck


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