Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#16  Post by pamojja » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:41 pm

Concerning bowel tolerance. Sodium bicarbonate is usually tolerated at higher amounts as pure ascorbic acid. Doesn't really increase bowel tolerance, since that term was originally meant with ascorbic acid only (though saw Dr. Levy using it with sodium ascorbate too). But due to its better tolerance (usually) you're able to get more vitamin C in your system. (Test it, and tell me later if I would have been wrong :D )

So, if I understand you right, if normal or small portions are eaten, then normally only carbs influence the spike in the readings. However, a large portion size of protein and/or fats could also cause a large spike in the readings.


Usually not. But let your test results teach you.

I could go to a strict keto diet and naturally restrict the spikes in the readings due to the low carb intake, as long as my portion sizes of the protein and fat are normal or small. Is that correct? If so, that could be considered easier than testing to see what carbs impact the readings the most. I do think that your method may be better for long term use instead of going keto all the time.


In my experience not practical. If one eliminates or reduces offenders - in my case this are carbs only - calories have to come from somewhere. One can't increase protein too much (otherwise gluconeogenesis of the liver kicks in, producing glucose from protein), fat in my case is the most benign. The testing is really for knowing how much low-carb or even keto is necessary, according to trigs results. Some have to go to the lowest levels of carbs, like not more than 15g per meal. Others might do good with much more.

Meaning, would it take 2 weeks or 2 months to see a considerable difference? Also, how quickly would it take to get your Triglycerides to go too high again?


Sorry for being the messenger of bad news, it might take a few months, or you might be able to reduce your trigs partially only. This is totally individual. Conversely, even one meal can up your Trigs again, affecting lab tests for 1-2 weeks.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#17  Post by ChuckArbogast » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:27 pm

pamojja wrote:Sorry for being the messenger of bad news, it might take a few months, or you might be able to reduce your trigs partially only. This is totally individual. Conversely, even one meal can up your Trigs again, affecting lab tests for 1-2 weeks.

Don't be sorry. That is why I asked, so I would know what to expect, what I can and can't do. Your help is appreciated.

ChuckArbogast wrote:As far as raising bowel tolerance, do you mean that I should mix 4 grams of ascorbic acid with 2 grams of sodium bicarbonate (aka. Baking Soda)? If so, how is that going to increase my bowel tolerance? I'm not saying you are wrong at all, I just like to understand how things work for my own benefit as well as potentially helping others.

I think you only answered my above question in part. What I specifically am not sure of is the 2 to 1 ratio. Is it 2 parts AA and 1 part Baking Soda?
Sorry for sounding dumb, but if I mix it that way, will the amount of Vitamin C taken still be the same? Meaning if I take 2g of AA and 1g of Baking Soda, is my body still getting 2g of AA or does the baking soda change things?

Thanks for your help,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#18  Post by pamojja » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:19 pm

ChuckArbogast wrote:I think you only answered my above question in part. What I specifically am not sure of is the 2 to 1 ratio. Is it 2 parts AA and 1 part Baking Soda?


I heard it here on this forum long time ago, but can't find it now again. The reason baking soda has to be limited is because a certain amount of ascorbic acid combines with an exact certain amount of sodium molecules (while the bicarbonate just bubbles off) to form sodium ascorbate. Which is also called a mineral ascorbate, and ph neutral (=no more acidic). With too much sodium bicarbonate the water with the mix would turn basic. For various mineral ascorbate forms see their difference in this LPI article: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins ... ntal-forms

Being no more certain of the exact ratio I checked wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_ascorbate
which actually corrects me to a 1 to 1 ratio. Which isn't a must, just the formula where all ascorbic acid turns into sodium ascorbate. Using less sodium bicarbonate, as Linus Pauling actually did with his ascorbic acid drink too, leaves just a corresponding part remaining as ascorbic acid.

ChuckArbogast wrote:, but if I mix it that way, will the amount of Vitamin C taken still be the same? Meaning if I take 2g of AA and 1g of Baking Soda, is my body still getting 2g of AA or does the baking soda change things?


There are different views. Owen maintains that ascorbate molecules have only one electron to donate, ascorbic acid two. Therefore only about half the effectiveness as reducing agent. On the LPI page linked to above are many references to studies, one comparing calcium ascorbate with ascorbic acid by testing resulting serum levels. Where at the peak of serum concentration 2 hours after ingestion of 1 g of calcium ascorbate compared to 1 g of ascorbic acid indeed produced a 1/3 lower peak (1.64 mg/dl vs. 1.12 mg/dl, both from an initially vitaminC deprived state of about 0.53 mg/dl). So according to this study its 1/3 less effective. However, more is tolerated due to its lack of acidity. Which can make this lesser effectiveness up again by being more tolerable at higher amounts. Hope I didn't complicated it more than it is.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#19  Post by ChuckArbogast » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:21 am

pamojja wrote:I heard it here on this forum long time ago, but can't find it now again. The reason baking soda has to be limited is because a certain amount of ascorbic acid combines with an exact certain amount of sodium molecules (while the bicarbonate just bubbles off) to form sodium ascorbate. Which is also called a mineral ascorbate, and ph neutral (=no more acidic). With too much sodium bicarbonate the water with the mix would turn basic. For various mineral ascorbate forms see their difference in this LPI article: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins ... ntal-forms

Being no more certain of the exact ratio I checked wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_ascorbate
which actually corrects me to a 1 to 1 ratio. Which isn't a must, just the formula where all ascorbic acid turns into sodium ascorbate. Using less sodium bicarbonate, as Linus Pauling actually did with his ascorbic acid drink too, leaves just a corresponding part remaining as ascorbic acid.

There are different views. Owen maintains that ascorbate molecules have only one electron to donate, ascorbic acid two. Therefore only about half the effectiveness as reducing agent. On the LPI page linked to above are many references to studies, one comparing calcium ascorbate with ascorbic acid by testing resulting serum levels. Where at the peak of serum concentration 2 hours after ingestion of 1 g of calcium ascorbate compared to 1 g of ascorbic acid indeed produced a 1/3 lower peak (1.64 mg/dl vs. 1.12 mg/dl, both from an initially vitaminC deprived state of about 0.53 mg/dl). So according to this study its 1/3 less effective. However, more is tolerated due to its lack of acidity. Which can make this lesser effectiveness up again by being more tolerable at higher amounts. Hope I didn't complicated it more than it is.

Thanks again for the info. So, it seems like if I do at most a 1 to 1 ratio, everything should be ok and I would loose about third of the original potency of the amount of AA used. So, if I do a 1 to one ration for 6g of AA, I would effectively have consumed 4g. I am guessing if I do 2 to 1 ration with AA to baking soda, that I would loose less than a third. Does that sound right?

Also, I do have a question about the mixing of the AA with the baking soda. When I mixed them in water the water fizzed for a long time, how long should I wait before drinking it? Wasn't sure if the reaction need to happen for a certain period of time before the conversion to sodium ascorbate takes place.

I did wait for a while but it was still slightly fizzing when I consumed it. Also, when I shook my bottle to mix the AA with the baking soda, it made it fizz more. I am assuming all of this is normal but wanted to ask since I really don't know much about this.

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#20  Post by pamojja » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:32 am

ChuckArbogast wrote:I am guessing if I do 2 to 1 ration with AA to baking soda, that I would loose less than a third. Does that sound right?


Right, only about 1/6. Remember, the only reason you add bicarbonate is to try if you can take more AA then now, before reaching your bowel tolerance. So you actually get more in total and therefore also more AA in your blood. If for any unknown reason it doesn't increase your tolerance, then this trial wouldn't have worked. And you could return to AA only again. Next approach to increase your intake/tolerance could be liposomal C.

ChuckArbogast wrote:Also, I do have a question about the mixing of the AA with the baking soda. When I mixed them in water the water fizzed for a long time, how long should I wait before drinking it? Wasn't sure if the reaction need to happen for a certain period of time before the conversion to sodium ascorbate takes place.


Better wait till it stops fizzling, all the bicarbonate has dissociated and sodium combined with ascorbate. With less sodium bicarbonate it fizzles less. On the other had, this reaction would just finish in your stomach as well, and couldn't hurt that way either. Except some burps and discomfort maybe. If in a hurry just gulp it down.

Also, when I shook my bottle to mix the AA with the baking soda, it made it fizz more.


This makes me think maybe the ratio of AA to sodium bicarbonate I thought wrongly remembered might have been right, and wikipedia wrong. It shouldn't fizzle any further once it has been mixed in water and stirred. Can anyone else confirm or correct?
Last edited by pamojja on Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#21  Post by ofonorow » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:33 am

Most of our CVD experience is with products that are exclusively ascorbic acid. We believe that the mineral ascorbates travel down the GI Tract and thus can become less effective if eaten with carbohydrates. On a ketogenic diet, this wouldn't be an issue.

From your response you are about 8 grams of vitamin C daily, yet your total cholesterol is 50 points too high, and you are at bowel tolerance.

One idea is to try less vitamin C , more frequently... As a way to maintain maximum blood levels longer.

And you may be a candidate to supplement your ordinary vitamin C with a liposomal vitamin C, that should help with the bowel issue.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#22  Post by ChuckArbogast » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:48 pm

pamojja wrote:This makes me think maybe the ratio of AA to sodium bicarbonate I thought wrongly remembered might have been right, and wikipedia wrong. It shouldn't fizzle any further once it has been mixed in water and stirred. Can anyone else confirm or correct?

Thanks again for your help. I may have mixed this wrong. I put mixed the power of the AA and Baking Soda in a container in a larger quantity but at the 1 to 1 ratio. I mixed it in the container for storage but it is likely that it didn't mix evenly and thus some teaspoons may have more baking soda in them than others, so maybe more fizzing. Once I go through this container, I will keep them in separate containers and only mix them when I want to drink them.

Thanks again for your help,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#23  Post by ChuckArbogast » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:51 pm

ofonorow wrote:Most of our CVD experience is with products that are exclusively ascorbic acid. We believe that the mineral ascorbates travel down the GI Tract and thus can become less effective if eaten with carbohydrates. On a ketogenic diet, this wouldn't be an issue.

From your response you are about 8 grams of vitamin C daily, yet your total cholesterol is 50 points too high, and you are at bowel tolerance.

One idea is to try less vitamin C , more frequently... As a way to maintain maximum blood levels longer.

And you may be a candidate to supplement your ordinary vitamin C with a liposomal vitamin C, that should help with the bowel issue.

Owen,
Thanks for your help. I take my AA at least 3 hours after any meal and at least 20 minutes before a meal to avoid what you speak of about with carbs. I may have to just take more than my 2 doses a day but it is hard for me to mix the powder with the water while at work. I may just have to find good capsules/tablets while at work and take AA more often to make sure I am getting enough.

For reference, how much and how often would you recommend?

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#24  Post by pamojja » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:55 pm

ChuckArbogast wrote:I mixed it in the container for storage but it is likely that it didn't mix evenly and thus some teaspoons may have more baking soda in them than others, so maybe more fizzing.


Very likely. The ratio is by weight, not volume. Since sodium bicarbonate usually is a very fine powder, but ascorbic acid a bid more coarse, one equal teaspoon of each wouldn't have the same weight.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:37 am

I may have to just take more than my 2 doses a day but it is hard for me to mix the powder with the water while at work. I may just have to find good capsules/tablets while at work and take AA more often to make sure I am getting enough.

For reference, how much and how often would you recommend?

Thanks,
Chuck


I've started mixing in a water bottle. And sipping throughout the day. If you take more frequently, you can take less, and still maintain high blood levels.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#26  Post by ChuckArbogast » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:43 am

pamojja wrote:
ChuckArbogast wrote:I mixed it in the container for storage but it is likely that it didn't mix evenly and thus some teaspoons may have more baking soda in them than others, so maybe more fizzing.


Very likely. The ratio is by weight, not volume. Since sodium bicarbonate usually is a very fine powder, but ascorbic acid a bid more coarse, one equal teaspoon of each wouldn't have the same weight.

Thanks for that info. I didn't know it was by weight. From the label on my AA, 1 level teaspoon is 4g (I think that is right), so I just have been using that. Should I start measuring my AA by weight as well, instead by the teaspoon?
Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#27  Post by ChuckArbogast » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:44 am

ofonorow wrote:
I may have to just take more than my 2 doses a day but it is hard for me to mix the powder with the water while at work. I may just have to find good capsules/tablets while at work and take AA more often to make sure I am getting enough.

For reference, how much and how often would you recommend?

Thanks,
Chuck


I've started mixing in a water bottle. And sipping throughout the day. If you take more frequently, you can take less, and still maintain high blood levels.

Thanks again for your suggestions. If I have to do take more during the day, and thus at work, I will most likely have to find a good option via a capsule. I don't really want to make my own capsules however.

Thanks,
Chuck

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#28  Post by confused1 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:48 am

ChuckArbogast wrote:
ofonorow wrote:
I may have to just take more than my 2 doses a day but it is hard for me to mix the powder with the water while at work. I may just have to find good capsules/tablets while at work and take AA more often to make sure I am getting enough.

For reference, how much and how often would you recommend?

Thanks,
Chuck


I've started mixing in a water bottle. And sipping throughout the day. If you take more frequently, you can take less, and still maintain high blood levels.

Thanks again for your suggestions. If I have to do take more during the day, and thus at work, I will most likely have to find a good option via a capsule. I don't really want to make my own capsules however.

Thanks,
Chuck
I wonder if a time release variety of c would be helpful for these situations. I've been considering taking a time release c before bed time. I seem to invariably wake up with a slightly stuffy nose which dissipates as soon as I take my first dose of c in the morning.

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#29  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:48 am

Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Pauling Therapy almost 2 years and labs aren't improving

Post Number:#30  Post by confused1 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:57 am

ofonorow wrote:Good idea. This is the brand of time release that a mercury poisoned women found gave her relief throughout the night.
https://www.amazon.com/Solaray-Two-Stage-Release-Supplement-1000mg/dp/B0011FWIYY/ref=sr_1_3_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1512229624&sr=8-3&keywords=solaray%2Btime%2Brelease%2Bvitamin%2Bc&th=1
Thanks Owen. I will guinea pig myself and let everyone know if it helps.


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