Recent MI, starting PT with questions

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Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:39 am

I recently had a spontaneous dissection of a coronary artery causing an acute Non-St Elevation MI all discovered via an angiogram after chest pain/ heart attack like symptoms while out hiking at 6 am.

Previous to this incident, my husband has been concerned about his heart due to family history (his father) and has been taking statins for several years. We ( really I) had been looking for ways to get him off statins because they are dangerous ( in my opinion) and I think there are better ways to address the problem. Linus Pauling's Therapy has been of interest but other than starting my husband on taking vitamin C but not therapeutic amounts, we hadn't come to any decision about where or how to start.

Now with my situation and the Doctors wanting me to take beta blockers and statins due to calcification they found during the angiogram, we both want to start the LP therapy. I found the websites and the forum and want to register to learn all I can. I just got your book "Practicing without..." and am reading that and have also read Dr Levy's book.

I haven't been back to see any doctors since my hospitalization (Nov 9-11) and am trying to decide what to do, besides not taking the statins prescribed and discontinuing the beta blocker, which gave me chest pain, weakness etc even when taking 1/4 of the dose prescribed. I'm wondering if I shouldn't start the LP first and then wait a month or so and then go see a doctor to see if it's helping. One heart clinic here offers the X-ray test to look at Coronary Calcification ( Recommended by Dr. Jeffrey Dach) which my husband had done and wants me to do to check against the angiogram. I think he wants to know how accurate it is since I just had the angiogram (for his benefit also, since he's worried about possible problems in his heart ) and because the calcification they found during my angiogram is of concern .

He still thinks that lowering cholesterol in the old/conventional medical sense is the way to go to prevent heart disease, in spite of evidence he's read about to the contrary. I'm more afraid of the drugs and therapies recommended by typical Cardiologists. I think from what I've read so far I need to get a Lipoprotein test to see how I am on that but I'm not sure if regular doctors will order that test if I ask for it.

My situation is complicated by a stroke I had at 34, 5 1/2 months after our son was born. The cause has the dissection of one of my carotid arteries due to fibromuscular displaysia. This left me with a completely occluded carotid on one side a 50% narrowing in the other one. It was congenital and it's usually discovered during autopsies, according to the neurologists! Anyway, they put me on Coumadin. I had some minor episodes in the year following this. Seven years later, I had another major stroke on the other side, this time due they thought to a patent foramen ovale in my heart, also supposedly congenital. So I had open heart surgery to repair it after I recovered from the stroke. The original stroke left damage that caused central pain syndrome, which in my case, is severe constant pain on the left side of my body, worse in the areas with the most deficit from the stroke. Consequently, I have been taking pain medication and have gotten very little sleep since the first stroke in 1993. They found a small aneurysm during a MRI and stopped the Coumadin after I had taken it for 7-8 years.

So, that's why I want to join the forum rather than just be a guest. Hopefully, someday I might have something positive to contribute to help other people trying to help their hearts get healthy again.

We both want to begin the LP Therapy but I don't know which of those products: Cardio-C, Heart Tech or CardioAde to try. I noticed someone on your forum mentioned that the Lysine caused trouble with their Rosacea which I have, .so I might have a problem with that too.
Any help you could give from your experience would be very much appreciated. I hope I haven't given you to much information but I thought I'd better try to include all the complications with my health situation if I was going to ask you for any ideas you might have.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you,


After the first read, both you and your husband, and especially you need to supplement vitamin C. All humans have a genetic defect that feeds our medical system. You can overcome the defect by supplementing vitamin C, and a good amount to shoot for to cover a lot of bases is 12 grams daily, eg. 1 gram every 2 hours. This would just about mimic what most animals make for themselves. Linus Pauling took more - less frequently.

The choice of products, they all include lysine, based on the knowledge of how atherosclerotic plaques form in our arteries. but each product adds more heart-healthy nutrition. You probably should be taking everything in Ascorsine-9, for example, but people have their own vitamin E, vitamin A, etc., so it depends on what other supplements you are taking. (From your description I assume few or none.)

Unfortunately, the coumadin they put you on leads to the calcification in soft tissues. (If you need studies, you can find over 200 in medline about this.) And the standard Pauling therapy will not resolve this alone. You need to add vitamin K. Vitamin K works like a hormone moving calcium from soft tissue into bone. Drugs like warfarin and coumadin actually block the action of vitamin K, leading to the calcium build-ups.

I take LEF.ORG Super-K daily. Neither my wife or I have any calcium from the scans. There is some concern that the K1 might interfere with your drugs, so it may be wise to start with a version of vitamin K2... Which has no effect on clotting, or so I am told.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#2  Post by Mn heart » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 am

I'm currently taking only my pain medication in terms of prescribed medications. They want me to continue taking a baby aspirin but I'm concerned about doing that and stopping taking it. For supplements I take cod liver oil, emu oil, magnesium citrate, liquid D3, MSM, Vitamin K(MK7&MK4 with some potassium, magnesium and boron included called Decalcify), Acetyl and Propionyl L-Carnitine. I have some Evening Primrose but haven't started that yet. I started the K and Carnitine after my hospital visit. I don't think I mentioned that the angiogram showed 50% blockage of the left anterior descending branch as well as the dissection. I plan to switch to the K you mentioned. Is it Life Extension Super K with advanced K2 complex?
My husband had the Calcium CT scan with a score in the acceptable range but it was high for his age (54). His C reactive protein test showed no inflammation.( his father was a smoker, overweight most of his life, and didn't exercise and had heart and other problems of which he died). When they found my husband had high cholesterol (~320) they gave him Lipitor which he couldn't take because of liver function problems, so he takes Crestor. He wants to stop and is taking only a small part of the tablet prescribed. He's nervous about it but is willing to try LP and see the results. He had some digestive problems in October and had a colonoscopy which showed some inflammation of unknown origin. He was taking ascorbic acid powder, about 2000 mg/day.

We would both like to know what you would suggest, what to take and how much. Any product recommendations are welcome. We understand the concept of bowel tolerance for the C and the need to take it throughout the day.

We're looking forward to your recommendations and to starting the protocol. Thank you for taking the time to help us with this.

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:47 am

Mn heart wrote:We're looking forward to your recommendations and to starting the protocol.


Don't forget what Pauling recommended just to maintain good health, not to talk about CVD, in his '86 book:

How to Live Longer and Feel Better

  • Take vitamin C every day, 6 grams to 18 g (6000 to 18,000 milligrams), or more. Do not miss a single day.
  • Take vitamin E every day, 400 IU, 800 IU, or 1600 IU.
  • Take one or two Super-B tablets every day, to provide good amounts of the B-vitamins.
  • Take 25,000 IU vitamin A tablet every day.
  • Take a mineral supplement every day, such as one tablet of the Bronson vitamin-mineral formula, which provides 100 mg of calcium, 18 mg of iron, 0.15 mg of iodine, 1 mg of copper, 25 mg of magnesium, 3 mg of manganese, 15 mg of zinc, 0.015 mg of molybdenum, 0.015 mg of chromium, and 0.015 mg of selenium.
  • Keep your intake of ordinary sugar (sucrose, raw sugar, brown sugar, honey) to 50 pounds per year, which is half the present U.S. average. Do not add sugar to tea or coffee. Do not eat high-sugar foods. Avoid sweet desserts. Do not drink soft drink.
  • Except for avoiding sugar, eat what you like - but not too much of any one food. Eggs and meat are good foods. Also you should eat some vegetables and fruits. Do not eat so much food as to become obese.
  • Drink plenty of water every day.
  • Keep active; take some exercise. Do not at any time exert yourself physically to an extent far beyond what you are accustomed to.
  • Drink alcoholic beverages only in moderation.
  • Do not smoke cigarettes.
  • Avoid stress. Work at a job that you like. Be happy with your family.

PS: can't help but add another Linus advise here: 'always listen to advise, but never believe blindly'

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:08 am

Crestor Injury Lawsuits. A February 2012 U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) drug safety communication warned that the anti-cholesterol drug rosuvastatin calcium—sold under the brand name Crestor—might cause kidney damage, liver damage, rhabdomyolysis, type 2 diabetes, and memory loss.


https://www.citizen.org/our-work/health-and-safety/petition-ban-cholesterol-lowering-drug-rosuvastatin-crestor

The most important thing you and your husband can do is to take the amount of vitamin C that will keep your arteries strong and healthy. The amount varies by individual; e.g. the stresses that you are under, the diet that you are on, etc. Vitamin C is job one.

Then the Pauling therapy, adding lysine up to 6 grams, proline up to 2 grams and niacin, will work to reverse any arterial build-ups of plaque caused by weak blood vessels.

Then all the other supplements you are taking are fine.. Although I didn't see vitamin E (which is almost as important as vitamin C for CVD).
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 am

For a heart patient,
I would recommend 100mg.+ Per kilogram (Kg) of weight.
This is take your weight in lbs. and divide it by 2.204 to get Kg.
Then multiply by 100 (or more) and this is the dose, divided through out the day.
Therapeutic range is from 100Mg/Kg to 200 Mg/Kg.

EXAMPLE:
130Lbs. Persons weight.

130/2.204= 58.983Kg.

So say 59Kg.

59X100=5900Mg. Vitamin C

Say 6000Mg. V-C Divide by 3 2000Mg. Per serving space over waking hours!

Tummy issues Use sodium Ascorbate.

Start with 100 Mg./Kg. And work up by adding extra doses try not exceed 2000mg. Per dose.

L-Lysine should be about 85 to 90 % of Vitamin C amount try not to exceed 6000mg. As it has the possibility of tummy issues may come into play at higher then 6000Mg. Per day

Note also:
Most L-Lysine Powders are Lysine hydrochloride. The actual lysine is about 80% of the powder.
So 1000Mg is about 800Mg actual Lysine.
Look into Serrapeptase about 40,000 SIU per day.

Hope this helps!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#6  Post by Mn heart » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:22 am

Thank you for your very helpful replies! Pamojja for the information from LP "How to live longer and ..."

To Owen:
1. How much Vitamin K is recommended to help the calcium move to the bones where it should be? Does anyone know approximately how long it takes for this to happen?
2. I ordered some A.E. Grace Unique E softgels. How do I know how much is good to take, noticing the range from 400 to 1600 IU? Do you know if that type of Vit. E is okay? You mentioned that E is almost as important as the C and I think I read in your book that it works as a blood thinner. Is that why it's important?
3. I would like to be able to take the C, lysine and proline together as a liquid to take throughout the day as I've read some do here on the Forum, if possible. How would I go about using one of the products available, like CardioAide, when the ratios of the three are set (so increasing the C would increase the others too)? LWould I just add some plain AA powder to make up the extra C I would need? Does drinking the C have any adverse affect on teeth?
4. Johnwen mentioned for lysine to use 85-90% up to 6 grams. How is the proline amount determined up to the 2 grams?
5. You mentioned Niacin, how much and is there any particular type is better?
Thank you for the reference on Crestor. Those are the reasons why I'm trying to help my husband stop taking it. With his cholesterol being over 300 without it, he's worried about stopping. His diet is good and he gets exercise regularly but that doesn't seem to bring the levels down to safer numbers.

To Johnwen
To be sure I understand, is the idea to start at 100mg/kg. and then add additional doses of 2000 until BT is reached?


I forgot to ask: when following the protocol, how can I to determine how well the LP is working? how soon to check and what test would show how I'm doing?
I haven't gone to any doctors since I left the hospital. I'm not sure I want to go to someone and have to fight them about taking the statins, beta blockers or aspirin but I don't want to make a mistake if I should be seeing someone.

Thank you all again so much for your help. It's scary not to have any of the traditional "experts " to go to in order to make these complex and all important decisions on what to do to best promote health and healing. This helps very much when taking a leap away from the "safety" of traditional medical advice, which I was brought up to believe in and rely on.

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#7  Post by Mn heart » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:57 am

Owen,
I realized I was asking you about the wrong product. I meant to ask about Tower Heart Tech rather than CardioAide which doesn't all three LP supplements included. I haven't decided on any particular one but would like to know how to include something like that.

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:11 am

Mn heart wrote:
To Owen:
1. How much Vitamin K is recommended to help the calcium move to the bones where it should be? Does anyone know approximately how long it takes for this to happen?

In the very first case, an ordinary vitamin K supplement (150 MICROgrams) did this magic in one year. As I mentioned, my wife and I take LEF.ORG Super-K, which has probably a thousand times higher dosage.

2. I ordered some A.E. Grace Unique E softgels. How do I know how much is good to take, noticing the range from 400 to 1600 IU? Do you know if that type of Vit. E is okay? You mentioned that E is almost as important as the C and I think I read in your book that it works as a blood thinner. Is that why it's important?

In our experience vitamin E does not work as a "blood thinner" in that high amounts do not affect INR.. Vitamin E's primary effect may be in its ability to recycle vitamin C, and vitamin E works in the lipid layers of the cell, while vitamin C operates in the watery areas of the cell. From memory, Pauling recommended 400 to 800 iu, and as I mentioned, the Founder of AC Grace (who bought the company to preserve the manufacturing process because he credited this vitamin E for saving his life) recommended 2000 iu in the morning. And until someone shows me EKG reversals with another form of vitamin E, I believe Unqiue-E is the best vitamin E for CVD (original formula)

3. I would like to be able to take the C, lysine and proline together as a liquid to take throughout the day as I've read some do here on the Forum, if possible. How would I go about using one of the products available, like CardioAide, when the ratios of the three are set (so increasing the C would increase the others too)? LWould I just add some plain AA powder to make up the extra C I would need? Does drinking the C have any adverse affect on teeth?

I think Cathcart recommended using a straw, but the only "effect" that I know of on teeth is the elimination of dental carries at a dosage around 6000 mg daily. And yes, once you achieve the 6 grams of lysine and 2 grams of proline, you can add extra vitamin C as required for your individual case.

4. Johnwen mentioned for lysine to use 85-90% up to 6 grams. How is the proline amount determined up to the 2 grams?

Your body makes proline (unlike vitamin C and lysine) so determining the amount varies by individual. 400 mg per serving has worked well over the years in the Tower HeartTech product. Note: The original Pauling therapy was vitamin C and lysine. Proline was added by Rath over the years after work on the proline binding site of Lp(a) by the University of Chicago.

5. You mentioned Niacin, how much and is there any particular type is better?

There are 3 (or 4) versions of niacin. Straight niacin works quickly causing the flush. You can avoid the flush with "slower releasing" forms of niacin, and I don't know if there is any difference w/r to CVD, but I doubt it.

I forgot to ask: when following the protocol, how can I to determine how well the LP is working? how soon to check and what test would show how I'm doing?


That is a good question. In the beginning, most of the people that turned to Pauling's therapy were at the end of their ropes suffering intractable chest pain. (Their doctors suggested they look for help on the Internet because there was nothing regular medicine could do.) Almost all reported (eventually) that their chest pains subsided in 10 days. And we have videos of some on their death beds painting their homes in 30 days. The results matched Pauling's first few cases as he related on the Unified Theory video.

We have a number of case reports with before and after tests, including thalium stress tests, that anecdotally show great benefit, but these tests are expensive, and if you are feeling well, it is unlikely they would order the follow-up tests. We wrote the book because of the experience of people feeling cured and well, and stopping vitamin C, and then invariably returning to their previous (before C) conditions and having a heart attack in six months after stopping the Pauling therapy.



Thank you all again so much for your help. It's scary not to have any of the traditional "experts " to go to in order to make these complex and all important decisions on what to do to best promote health and healing. This helps very much when taking a leap away from the "safety" of traditional medical advice, which I was brought up to believe in and rely on.


We all were. Unfortunately, approximately 40% of hospital revenue depends on heart disease, so this knowledge, if widely known, would close most major hospitals. Apparently that is enough of a "force" to keep this information from medicine.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#9  Post by Mn heart » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:42 am

Owen,
Thank you very much for the detailed discussion and answers to my questions.

Is there a recommended number of mg of Niacin to take? I've tried no flush niacin in the past but unfortunately it wasn't no flush for me but it wasn't a slow releasing form. Is that something that I just have to put up with?

In my situation with only an angiogram and a cholesterol test done at the hospital as a starting point, I'm having trouble understanding how do I know how long to continue at the therapeutic levels? Other than feeling better (until the spontaneous dissection, in terms of my heart, I felt fine), is there a way that I can know how much progress I am making? I understand that the amount of time will depend on how bad the CVD is to begin with and the older the areas to be healed are, the longer it will take for the PT to help them heal.
Thank you again for your kind assistance and for sharing your knowledge and experience.

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:48 am

In a Niacin expert A. Hoffer's books, he generally prescribed equal amounts of vitamin C and niacin to his patients. A ball park is 3,000 mg daily. Niacin releases histamines from cells, so over time, the amount of available histamine is reduced, and the flush goes away, even for fast-acting niacin.

As far as knowing when you are cured, I'd say this is still no reason to stop taking vitamin C (and lysine), i.e., just because you are feeling well.

The problem we humans face is that there is a genetic defect that affects our livers, and which only a handful of other species who have the same defect survived, e.g. higher order primates, guinea pig, fruit bat and some parrots. All other species, e.g. dogs, cats, cows, etc. make their own vitamin C, in large amounts 24/7. What we are advocating is merely imitating what most mammals do for themselves. Review this video, which gives a very clear explanation why most humans would thrive on higher levels of vitamin C than recommended by authorities.


https://youtu.be/y0LLX0sgwAU
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My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#11  Post by Mn heart » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:32 pm

Owen,
I understand the need to continue to take Vitamin C/lysine/proline on a ongoing basis and plan to continue to do so.

My question relates to what I have read on this forum and on the Tower website about therapeutic doses vs maintenance doses. I've read discussions of the reduction of calcification, narrowing and inflammation and returning the arteries to a more healthful state by using this therapy at high doses and then keeping them that way with lower maintenance doses. If I had been lucky enough to know about this before I had this problem, I could have begun the PT and prevented the development of calcification in the first place as you and others describe.
So I'm asking, if there is indeed such a thing as a maintenance dose of C/lysine/proline, how does one know when the therapeutic doses have done their work? I read a discussion in your book about a test called Atherotech VAP to measure Lp(a) but I don't understand enough about this to know what to do beyond following the protocol and continuing with it for life. If I were seeing a cardiologist, I assume tests would be performed to monitor the calcification present, similar to the ultrasounds and MRIs they performed on my carotid arteries regularly to monitor the occluded side and to watch the others. However, since I am choosing at this time not to follow up after my hospital stay with a Doctor but instead to begin PT, I'm wondering how or if I should see how I'm doing and when ( how long after beginning PT) I should do it. I've read various estimates as to how long, at therapeutic levels, it takes to resolve calcifications and inflammation depending on how long the disease has been present. I know no one knows exactly how long it takes but I would like to know if there is some way that I should monitor my progress or do people just go by how they feel?

I hope that this clarifies my question. Again, I do understand that it is necessary and desirable to continue to take Vitamin C, lysine and the various other supplements like Vitamin K and E, as you describe you and your wife do, for as long as I want to be healthy (which of course, is as long as I'm alive).
Thank you once again for your time and help with my questions.

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Re: Recent MI, starting PT with questions

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:18 am

Me thinks you are thinking too much. Have you started vitamin C? And lysine? At Linus Pauling's recommended dosages? This is job one.

After you have started the healing process, you can worry about how much to back off, and not suffer a relapse. This therapy is not being studied, we are all different, and our advice is based on the anecdotal evidence since 1996, much of which has been posted here over the years, and some of which is posted: https://vitaminccures.com/blog/index.php/heart-disease-testimonials/

The advantage we have is the Pauling/Rath unified theory of heart disease. Having a theory of what is probably going on helps to separate the gold nugget studies from the marketing chaff put out by the heart disease industry.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


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