Dosage and Vitamin C type (lysine toxicity)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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barcud
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Dosage and Vitamin C type (lysine toxicity)

Post Number:#1  Post by barcud » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:32 am

I joined the forum on 17 November 2017 and Owen replied to me via email, but I only just read the email today when trawling through the many undreads. He suggested I posted my point here. Here's my original email.

Dear Owen,

Hi, I’ve been taking vitamin c for about fifteen years now. Sometimes I lapse but for the past year or so I’ve been pretty regular at 5g - 9g per day. I had been taking a little lysine too but I find that I get muscle cramps after a while so I stop the lysine and they go away. My cholesterol is raised all types and my HDL LDL ratio is 6, which they are suggesting I take statins to reduce. I have a family history of CHD in the males of my father’s family.

I did have some slight angina about 15 years ago and that’s when I started taking Vitamin C. I’ve not been troubled by it since and I’ve climbed mountains much more recently with no breathlessness, tightness. No symptoms of any CVD. I had a retina photograph done recently and my retinal arteries were fine. A slight light reflex in the arteries that wasn’t there in the previous photograph 2 years before, but that photograph was poor quality.

I guess I’m joining because I see my kidney function is slightly reduced (I’m 56) to 91 (not sure if USA measure as the same as UK ones, is glomular filtration rate I think) and doing research I found some papers that say both Lysine and Vitamin C are toxic to kidneys. The lysine research is more compelling as the Vit c one looks like an outlier.

Anyway, sorry to have gone on for so long!

Tony Walker

PS . Here's a link to a paper on lysine induced kidney failure in rats. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1887985/

Since the original email, I continued to dose with 6-9mg of time release vitamin c bought from the local health food store plus Vit B complex, plus Magnesium. I should say I feel well and have no cardiovascular symptoms. I also cut out all diary food, red meat and protein was from chicken, fish and lean pork as well as beans and legumes. My LDL cholesterol actually increased after two months on this diet! I wonder if the time release vit c isn't as effective?

pamojja
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Re: Dosage and Vitamin C type

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:39 pm

barcud wrote:I guess I’m joining because I see my kidney function is slightly reduced (I’m 56) to 91 (not sure if USA measure as the same as UK ones, is glomular filtration rate I think) and doing research I found some papers that say both Lysine and Vitamin C are toxic to kidneys. The lysine research is more compelling as the Vit c one looks like an outlier.


I don't think a single decrease GFR of 91 ml/min can already be interpreted to clearly mean anything. Other than confirming that GFR declines at our age. If I look at my GFR lab history, some labs reported vague values of >60 around 2010, >80 in 2014, >90 with 2016. An other lab did report actual numbers, which was in average at 102 - with a highest outlier of 113 and a lowest of 82 more recently. However, looking at all other kidney markers I actually would have classified for CKD stage1 up to 2012, which later improved not reflected by GFR alone. All the time on 23 g of ascorbic acid and about 6 g of lysine each day.

Never take a mice study as conclusive for what would happen with the same substance in a human.

pamojja
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Re: Dosage and Vitamin C type

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:47 pm

barcud wrote:Hi, I’ve been taking vitamin c for about fifteen years now. Sometimes I lapse but for the past year or so I’ve been pretty regular at 5g - 9g per day...

I continued to dose with 6-9mg of time release vitamin c bought from the local health food store plus Vit B complex, plus Magnesium. .. I wonder if the time release vit c isn't as effective?


So in your last statement you actually meant grams, not milligrams. I would avoid such high doses with sustained release for not getting that much binder and fillers. But use pure crystalline ascorbic acid powder instead.

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Re: Dosage and Vitamin C type

Post Number:#4  Post by skwoodwiva » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:54 pm

pamojja wrote:
barcud wrote:I guess I’m joining because I see my kidney function is slightly reduced (I’m 56) to 91 (not sure if USA measure as the same as UK ones, is glomular filtration rate I think) and doing research I found some papers that say both Lysine and Vitamin C are toxic to kidneys. The lysine research is more compelling as the Vit c one looks like an outlier.


I don't think a single decrease GFR of 91 ml/min can already be interpreted to clearly mean anything. Other than confirming that GFR declines at our age. If I look at my GFR lab history, some labs reported vague values of >60 around 2010, >80 in 2014, >90 with 2016. An other lab did report actual numbers, which was in average at 102 - with a highest outlier of 113 and a lowest of 82 more recently. However, looking at all other kidney markers I actually would have classified for CKD stage1 up to 2012, which later improved not reflected by GFR alone. All the time on 23 g of ascorbic acid and about 6 g of lysine each day.

Never take a mice study as conclusive for what would happen with the same substance in a human.

I second pamo!
I took VC tabs with crospovidone @ a rate of 25 gr & I got red skin blotches that lasted for 6 mo.
Get you VC from purebulk.
Also my GFR is now in the high 80s and with other stats being high, I am good

Think danelion root & leaf

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Re: Dosage and Vitamin C type

Post Number:#5  Post by barcud » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:51 am

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I take your point about the sustained release. I've now switched to dosing a gram every three hours or so, but I'm listening to what you're saying about using powder instead. I will move to that I think

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Re: Dosage and Vitamin C type

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:09 am

doing research I found some papers that say both Lysine and Vitamin C are toxic to kidneys



First careful with the use of the word "toxic" with respect to either vitamin C and/or lysine. These are among the least toxic substances known, both are essential, meaning you have to obtain some from your diet every day to stay alive. There is no known lethal toxic dosage (.e. LDL 50 when half the animal subjects die) in animal experiments using vitamin C. Water is actually more "toxic" than vitamin C, you can die from drinking too much water!

Lysine is almost as safe, and I appreciate the link to that paper. (I leave it to others to check my math below, i.e. the 600 mg/rat of lysine equates to in terms of the 70 Kilogram human.

Average adult weight for male: 267 – 500 grams (.6 – 1 lb) (http://www.petsource.org/small-animal-species/5446-rat.html)

500 g (rat) versus 70000 g (human) thus 600 mg would mean a factor of 140

600 mg * 140 = equivalent amount given to humans 84,000 mg or 84 grams!!!!

So don't take over 84 grams of lysine per day!

We generally recommend supplementing 3 to 6 grams of lysine, and johnwen once computed a maximum safe amount of lysine at 14 grams.

A far cry from 84, and if the rats in the study were smaller, the ratio is about double!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Dosage and Vitamin C type (lysine toxicity)

Post Number:#7  Post by barcud » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:23 pm

Thanks Owen for the calculation. I won't take more than 84g of lysine a day :)

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Re: Dosage and Vitamin C type

Post Number:#8  Post by zarfas » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:57 pm

ofonorow wrote: Lysine is almost as safe, and I appreciate the link to that paper. (I leave it to others to check my math below, i.e. the 600 mg/rat of lysine equates to in terms of the 70 Kilogram human.

So don't take over 84 grams of lysine per day!

We generally recommend supplementing 3 to 6 grams of lysine, and johnwen once computed a maximum safe amount of lysine at 14 grams.

A far cry from 84, and if the rats in the study were smaller, the ratio is about double![/b][/color]

huh?
I take in about 900grams of eggwhites a day(sometimes 2x that)
1 carton=454gram
contain 25gra lysine and 14 grams proline

so is 84 grams is "bad",, why is it bad?


eggwhite carton
https://www.walmart.com/ip/All-Whites-1 ... z/22478901


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