LPa Treatment Question

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Unheardof
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LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#1  Post by Unheardof » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:46 pm

Hello, I am new to the forum so thanks in advance for anyone that is able to get back to me.

I am a 35 year old male and live a pretty healthy lifestyle in my opinion. Weightlifter, crossfitter, competitive soccer player, hardly any body fat. I don’t follow a super strict diet but I don’t eat any “junk.” And I did one of those comprehensive blood work tests just for fun basically. Everything came back in the green category except Lpa, which was red and I knew nothing about until my recent research.

The LPa was measured (or calculated, I don’t know) at 191 nmol/L. The other cholesterol numbers were ok.
Total C - 182 mg/dL
LDL - 106 mg/dL
HDL - 57 mg/dL
TG - 93 mg/dL

So after researching naturally I wasn’t thrilled with finding this out so I went to my GP and brought the test results. He wasn’t impressed at all. He pointed out the HDL of 57 and said as long as that number is high and you keep up your daily exercise that I shouldn’t worry about it. He said LDL could come down a little to under 100 but that’s about it.

I wasn’t happy with this answer so I booked an appointment with a cardiologist. He seemed equally unimpressed. He showed me some cardiac risk calculator that had my CVD risk at something ridiculously low but it didn’t even factor in LPa. Anyway he did a quick evaluation, told me if I should consider switching to a mostly plant-based diet and that should get the LDL down to 80 or so and not worry about the rest, and come back for an advanced lipid panel in 8 months.

I’ll do that but don’t really want to not be addressing the root problem of high Lpa in the meantime. So I’ve been obsessively researching and stumbled across this forum. It seems like vitamin C and lysine is my best course of action along with niacin in knocking the LPA number down. So I’ll start working my way up to 6g of each daily. I don’t see as much mention on niacin here, is that because it is recommended to be administered under the care of a doctor because of potential effects in liver?

Anyway if there are others here in a similar situation (seemingly perfectly healthy and in very good cariovaacular shape in terms of exercise capacity, and good other lipid numbers but very high Lpa, I’d be interested in the course of treatment you followed and if it has translated to lower tested LPa numbers. Thanks!

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#2  Post by skwoodwiva » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:30 pm

Unheardof wrote:Hello, I am new to the forum so thanks in advance for anyone that is able to get back to me.

I am a 35 year old male and live a pretty healthy lifestyle in my opinion. Weightlifter, crossfitter, competitive soccer player, hardly any body fat. I don’t follow a super strict diet but I don’t eat any “junk.” And I did one of those comprehensive blood work tests just for fun basically. Everything came back in the green category except Lpa, which was red and I knew nothing about until my recent research.

The LPa was measured (or calculated, I don’t know) at 191 nmol/L. The other cholesterol numbers were ok.
Total C - 182 mg/dL
LDL - 106 mg/dL
HDL - 57 mg/dL
TG - 93 mg/dL

So after researching naturally I wasn’t thrilled with finding this out so I went to my GP and brought the test results. He wasn’t impressed at all. He pointed out the HDL of 57 and said as long as that number is high and you keep up your daily exercise that I shouldn’t worry about it. He said LDL could come down a little to under 100 but that’s about it.

I wasn’t happy with this answer so I booked an appointment with a cardiologist. He seemed equally unimpressed. He showed me some cardiac risk calculator that had my CVD risk at something ridiculously low but it didn’t even factor in LPa. Anyway he did a quick evaluation, told me if I should consider switching to a mostly plant-based diet and that should get the LDL down to 80 or so and not worry about the rest, and come back for an advanced lipid panel in 8 months.

I’ll do that but don’t really want to not be addressing the root problem of high Lpa in the meantime. So I’ve been obsessively researching and stumbled across this forum. It seems like vitamin C and lysine is my best course of action along with niacin in knocking the LPA number down. So I’ll start working my way up to 6g of each daily. I don’t see as much mention on niacin here, is that because it is recommended to be administered under the care of a doctor because of potential effects in liver?

Anyway if there are others here in a similar situation (seemingly perfectly healthy and in very good cariovaacular shape in terms of exercise capacity, and good other lipid numbers but very high Lpa, I’d be interested in the course of treatment you followed and if it has translated to lower tested LPa numbers. Thanks!


Well I have done niacin for more than a year at 6 to 8 gr a day with my PT goodies & VC which I try to dose 8 times a day.

Just be sure to take a break from niacin every half year for a week (off it).

My LP(a) is now, must bo about 5. But Kaiser Permanente (Quest) cannot test below 10.

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#3  Post by Unheardof » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:54 pm

Thanks for the feedback! I actually re-read my post and think I wasn’t clear in that I intend to start taking Vit C and lysine daily (working up to 6g). My protein shakes I take daily look like they already have close to 2000mg lysine. But I would like to have my doctor or cardiologist be on board with working with me on the niacin and finding a correct dosage that is effective.

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#4  Post by francisunderwood » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:07 pm

I would get a retest and ask if it is calculated or measured. If it is high look into proline.

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#5  Post by zarfas » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:53 pm

francisunderwood wrote:I would get a retest and ask if it is calculated or measured. If it is high look into proline.

good call

Id start eating eggwhites(high in proline/lysine)
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 000-w.html

get bodyfat down to 12-15%
BMI to 25

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530540

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#6  Post by Unheardof » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:36 pm

Thanks, I do plan on getting re-tested in a couple months. Just trying to do what I can to lower it before then assuming my last test was accurate.

Thanks for the tips on the proline. I take pea protein shakes which have about 2000mg lysine and 1500mg proline in them but I’ll plan to supplement on top of that. Also I do eat a lot of eggs, but after the high Lpa I am looking to change that to egg whites.

One thing I was wondering if anyone knows, how can someone have such a high Lpa reading when their LDL is in the reference range. The test sheet even says LPa is a type of LDL so it seems to me it would be counted in the LDL measurement too?

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#7  Post by skwoodwiva » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:18 pm

Are you on a statin?
Main steam medicine ignores LPa.

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#8  Post by Unheardof » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:01 am

No, I am not on any prescription drugs.

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:13 am

But I would like to have my doctor or cardiologist be on board with working with me on the niacin and finding a correct dosage that is effective.


The question about Lp(a) being a subset of LDL is a good one, but the Lp(a) units were in nmol/l (where 90 is considered normal) and the other numbers are in terms of mass - mg/dl - which are all very good.

You cannot expect your cardiologist to know something they have NEVER been trained in. Since all pharmaceutical drugs, in fact, RAISE lp(a), American doctors haven't a clue, and do not like to be embarrassed by their patients.

The company that I had relied on for accurate Lp(a) measurements in the USA is out of business, probably for the above reasons - no cardiologist really understands anything about Lp(a).

As the Pauling/Rath patents show - if your Lp(a) really is elevated (if you are taking vitamin C consistently, that is doubtful, if not, elevated Lp(a) is likely), the best thing to do with elevated Lp(a) is take Lp(a) Binding Inhibitors - from the Pauling/Rath patents, these are vitamin C, tranexamic acid - a lysine analog that they used to get the first patent, and Niacin. later patents added proline. One patent is for "melting plaques" off organs before transplants.


Use of ascorbate and tranexamic acid (Think Lysine) solution for organ and blood vessel treatment prior to transplantation
http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Par ... PN/5230996
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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#10  Post by Unheardof » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:51 am

Thank you, that is great info. I’ve learned a lot the past few days just browsing this forum so am glad I was able to find it. It’s a little unfortunate that the people we depend on to guide us in treatment are at a loss of what to do if it doesn’t follow their playbook. I think the exact remark I got from my doctor was along the lines of “LDL isn’t high enough to warrant a statin and HDL is good, so just keep up healthy diet and exercise”. Because a lot of people will probably just heed that advise and not research on their own ways to improve their health.

Ok, so starting PT of C and lysine (It looks like I get 2-3g of proline already through existing diet and supplements taken). Plan to re-test Lpa in April/May so will see how it goes.

Thanks!

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#11  Post by Unheardof » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:38 am

Posting latest test results to update this thread. Diet was already good but cut out dairy, any simple carbs, red meat and any sweets (extremely rare for me to begin with). Also, cut back on egg yokes. Added much more vegetables. Added 3g VitC, 2g lysine and fish oil.

LDL-C 91 mg/dL (was 106)
HDL-C 55 mg/dL (was 58)
TG 54 mg/dL (was 93)
Lpa 185 nmol/L (was 191)

Olympic weightlifting 3x week and run about 10-15 miles per week. Haven’t had my body fat actually tested but looking at the image chart i would say I’m not more than 10%. So between exercise and diet I’m not sure there’s anything else I can do to improve these values.

So wanted to start with a lower C/lysine regime to see if it worked and it didn’t (though from a standard lipid panel, results look pretty good) so will up that and test again in 6 months or so.

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#12  Post by Unheardof » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:40 pm

Thanks Zarfas for the response.

Yeah I’m actually quite addicted to eggs. Before I found about the Lpa I probably had 2 whole and 4 whites per day. Once finding out the high Lpa I cut out a lot of the yokes to reduce ldl a bit and mostly eat egg white omelettes now. Still have probably 2-3 yokes a week. I see so many conflicting things on egg yokes and whether they are bad or not.

I also saw the study on exercise and Lpa. That’s unfortunate but I guess I’m just going to take my chances that it provides more benefits than it does harm.

I will pick up some k2 after just reading up a bit about it after your post.

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#13  Post by zarfas » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:00 pm

Unheardof wrote:Thanks Zarfas for the response.

Yeah I’m actually quite addicted to eggs. Before I found about the Lpa I probably had 2 whole and 4 whites per day. Once finding out the high Lpa I cut out a lot of the yokes to reduce ldl a bit and mostly eat egg white omelettes now. Still have probably 2-3 yokes a week. I see so many conflicting things on egg yokes and whether they are bad or not.

I also saw the study on exercise and Lpa. That’s unfortunate but I guess I’m just going to take my chances that it provides more benefits than it does harm.

I will pick up some k2 after just reading up a bit about it after your post.

consumerlabs/dr levy and I think this forum, recommends
Life Extension Super K with Advanced K2 Complex 90
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-A ... W4S0G?th=1


and it looks like we had a miscommunication, about LpA and exercise
the reason the study showed exercise caused elevated LpA is simply because chronic excerise(SS cardio, ie running, etc) uses up the vit C
no vitamin C means cant make collagen, so the body is forced to use lpA

so exercise all you want, just take WAY more than 3 grams of vit C.. i would guess 15 grams or so.....

this might be the study, I forget
Cross-sectional studies have reported abnormally high serum Lp(a) levels in experienced distance runners and body builders who train for 2 to 3 hours each day.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10461709

this agrees with Pauling/etc, that you need vitamin C to make collagen(fact) and that without vit C, the body will use LpA..
--and if you read that study, lipids go down with exercise/less bodyfat, less weight, yet LpA goes up?
lpA is LDL cholestrol + Apo protien
so less ldl cholestrol should mean itd go down...(which is why adding niacin will help , a bit


are you in the USA?
I am surprised any blood test tested for LpA...but least you are here and you know what's going on.


are you on HRT? at 35, I doubt it, but you are a bb, and I'm on a forum about HRT/etc and a fan of HRT, but half of HRT is controlling estrogen.... that causes issues

Dr Tom levey talks about4 things the body needs for sure
1 vit C
2 Magnessium
3 vit k2(the body doesnt do a good job of converting k to k2(via bacteria) if it did, adding k2 would have no effect
1-3 you cannot get too much of, dr levy says how much you take will lower all cause mortaility

4 vit D (to a certain level, 60-100ng/ml
https://www.peakenergy.com/hydroxyvitamin.php

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#14  Post by Unheardof » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:09 pm

Yes I am in the US. I actually took one of those wellnessfx comprehensive blood tests just for fun. Turned out it wasn’t so fun finding out I had high Lpa (which I hadn’t even heard of before taking the test.

I am not on HRT. Testosterone was included in that test that’s I took and my total and free were in the good ranges. I have been a weightlifter for a long time but never dabbled in any hormone altering supplements.

Thanks for the supplement info. I will definitely be getting some k2. My vitamin D levels (from that same blood test) were 50 though the reference range they gave was 30-100 ng/ml. So maybe it wouldn’t hurt to add a bit there too.

Speaking of LPa and Ldl, I was curious, do you or does anyone know if LDL-C as reported include LPa since it is a form of LDL. So for example would my 91 LDL-C really be half of more LPa?

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Re: LPa Treatment Question

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:10 am

Good question, but first

Also, cut back on egg yokes


The yokes are the most nutritious part of the egg! Almost a complete food, except for vitamin C (which the chicks will be able to make for themselves.) The book that reinforces this point is Roger J Williams THE WONDERFUL WORLD WITHIN YOU... which the Riordan clinic has posted online https://riordanclinic.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/The_Wonderful_World_Within_You.pdf

Linus Pauling, in his book, not only recommends the entire egg, but takes time to point out that there is a feedback system, so that if the intake of cholesterol is too little, the body will make more of its own. Cholesterol has many vital functions, including detoxification. And yes, cholesterol becomes elevated when a person is fighting heart disease, but it is not the cause of the disease, but rather the body's reaction, i.e.,a symptom.

As far as Lp(a) and LDL, yes, Lp(a) is a form (subset) of LDL (with a sticky apo(a) attached to the surface.) Many of the Lp(a) numbers thus appear to be nonsense, perhaps because long ago the FDA allowed labs to "compute" Lp(a), rather than actually measure it. And even measuring it could be misleading, because the size of an Lp(a) molecule can vary, I think Pauling said by a thousand fold. The smaller Lp(a) molecules are more "atherogenic", i.e. more prone to cause the build up of atherosclerotic plaque. So the absolute weight may not be indicative of the risk.

If Lp(a) is present, then again, the Lp(a) binding inhibitors vitamin C, lysine (and proline) would be of value to help prevent the Lp(a) from forming plaques that impede blood flow. Since the Pauling/Rath theory is that these Lp(a)-plaques are acting as surrogates for low vitamin C (which would otherwise strengthen the artery from the increased production of collagen), everything depends on higher doses of vitamin C
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