Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#1  Post by Vit C worked for me! » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:03 pm

Hello. I am new to the forum, so I will provide some background info. A couple years ago, as a Type 1 diabetic for nearly 30 years,I got permission from my doctor to take Heart Tech Vitamin C after reading about Pauling (he said, at worst, I'd have expensive urine). I began taking Towers Heart Tech at 3grams daily, I began to see great changes in a short period of time. My lab tests showed my cholesterol went from 398 to 313 (I can not take statins - I get muscle pains). My contact lens prescription improved from -5.00 each eye to -2.75 each eye (I went from needing my contacts to not knowing that I had forgotten to put them in!) My dentist said my gums with "deep pockets" of 8-9 had improved to 4-5. I saw that my blood sugar was a lot less erratic. My blood pressure was lower and more stable. Vitamin C was working for me.

Not as excited about the improvement in my cholesterol, my doctor convinced me to try Crestor, and after just 2 pills, I was in the hospital for 3 days with tachycardia of 200 ppm, stabbing lung pains with even the shallowest of breathes, and so much gas in the stomach that I could not eat for a week. I really believe these drugs are dangerous.

I stopped taking everything,(even the Vit C,) except insulin. I suffered a stroke (tingling on my arm and leg), and saw a very slow, gradual but definite decline in strength, muscle tone. (I wondered if this was Rhabdomyolysis, my doctors thinks I'm silly). After a while, my cholesterol went back up, but my gums and eye sight remained improved. About a year later, I discovered that I had Stage 4 Chronic Kidney disease. Insurance finally provided an insulin pump and I know have very good control of blood glucose, I have a buried Peritoneal Catheter just in case, and have been able to remain off of dialysis for the last year. I was Vit D deficient. I'm taking Calcitriol (active vit D) and lab shows now up to 50, Renaplex D (renal vitamins w/o Vitamin A). I am a careful eater, trying to keep Potassium and Phosphorus levels in check, but just started Sevelamer phos binder. Just switched form Losartan (which is supposed to be THE drug to help BP/Kidneys but seems to increase my BP) to Amlodipine since BP has extremely labile while on Losartan. Years later, I'm feeling better than I did after the Crestor episode, even though doctor thinks dialysis will be starting soon. However, my eyesight just now seems on its way to slowly returning to what it was prior to Vit C, and my cholesterol is still high.

Since they are so very concerned about my cardiac health (I have NO cardiac problems currently) and want me to consider an injectable, month long lasting cholesterol shot (which I can't imagine spending a month in the hospital if this one does what Crestor did even if its not a statin), I'd asked my doctor about going back on Heart Tech instead. He says that since the kidneys are not able to get rid of any excess vitamins, this might not be a good idea, especially since it has vitamin A. I'm wondering if I could try to take the Cardio-C without Vit A. Lower dose, maybe? Do you know of anyone with CKD who safely takes Vit C? Do you know of anything that helps to regenerate the kidneys (even if not the nephrons)? Any advice regarding Telomeres, or in general? Any warnings? Your response is greatly appreciated!

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#2  Post by Johnwen » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:48 pm

Has anyone looked at your thyroid function? (Blood test etc.)
Do you have any recent blood work?
If so would you share your TSH and GFR levels?

I don’t know if anyone has told you but hypothyroidism and Kidney failure go hand in hand.
Even sub clinical thyroid (High end of range, 2.0 or over on TSH) readings can effect the kidneys.

Here’s a quick link:

https://www.thyroid.org/patient-thyroid ... ue-11-p-4/
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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#3  Post by Vit C worked for me! » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:07 pm

I'm not sure this is a clinical thyroid test, but here is what I've got: On this test, TSH normal range is < 14 . On 6/16/16 TSH was 5.3, on 11/21/16 TSH was 6.6. T4 FREE normal range is .27-4.2 uIU/mL. On 1/28/10 was 3.71 uIU/mL, on 6/16/16 was 1.2, on 11/21/16 was 1.5. 2016 is when I got a copy of my tests, and asked if I should see a nephrologist as my GFR was 22. For some reason, my PCP doctor didn't think that was necessary, but my endocrinologist called her friend, and the nephrologist came in to see me when she didn't have clinic. I finally collected all my test results for as far back as I could, which showed:GFR was
40 on 11/08/11,
39 on 1/14/13 (hospital from Crestor) AST (SGOT) went to 372 u/L, ALT (SGPT ) went up to 243 (normal range for both on this test is 0-31)
26 on 10/10/14,
28 on 4/7/15,
28 on 4/17/15,
18 on 6/16/16,
15 on 10/7/16,
16 on 11/21/16,
22 on 12/12/16, When I found out what a GFR was!! So, not once in 6 years did anyone tell me I had CKD!!
15 on 2/24/17,
14 on 4/11/17,
14 on 6/1/17, Told I MUST start dialysis, so had PD cath buried, but my research showed no benefit to early dialysis.
13 on 7/6/17,
12 on 8/15/17,
13 on 11/3/17,
9 on 4/2/18,
8 on 5/23/18 Back down to my normal weight 158 (before pregnancy 20 years ago. Insulin adjusted by perinatologist was never readjusted by doctors after birth and gained 32 pounds (190). After a while, I just adjusted it myself and lost 14 (176), but got stuck there, until I got on insulin pump. I also stopped eating gluten and lost 10 more (166), and am now at 158, eating very carefully. But now told I'm losing too much weight, and may be forced to start dialysis, although I'm still feeling pretty good, unless I try to do something strenuous, like running.

My PTH went up for a while, but it's back down to normal.

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:33 am

I don't want to get in the way of johnwen's response/analysis of your numbers...

I just wouldn't be afraid of vitamin A. Long story, but it is a vitamin, meaning you would die (after going blind and dying of an infection) if you didn't get any vitamin A. You report good success with Tower's HT, and you can always restart at a low dose, and slowly work up.

I have never heard any information that vitamin A interferes with kidney function.

I know there is a concern about high vitamin C and some kidney patients, but again, you require vitamin C to exist, so the only question is dosage.

Pauling himself suffered a usually fatal kidney disease (when he was age 60, before he started taking vitamins himself). This from Linus Pauling in his Own Words (Barbara Marinacci) https://www.amazon.com/Linus-Pauling-His-Own-Words/dp/0684813874/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1528810160&sr=1-1&keywords=Linus+Pauling+in+his+own+words&dpID=51f073erpkL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

At that time, the recommendation for his condition was to take high protein. Since doing that proved fatal, Pauling and his doctor decided on a low protein diet. Another way to make the kidney do less work is to stay hydrated, drink a lot of water. (Drinking a lot of water is another Pauling recommendation from his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (1986).

From that point on, his wife starting giving Linus a multivitamin daily :D (Not too long after that, Irwin Stone convinced Pauling that high amounts of vitamin C were beneficial, and the rest, as they say, is history.)


Added - there are studies showing the CoQ10 supplementation (energy cofactor) can take people of dialysis.

And the latest TOWNSEND LETTER FOR DOCTORS AND PATIENTS (printed copy) has a wonderful article on Kidney Function by a Naturopath (jenny Henderson) who herself was on dialysis for years. She learned enough to get off dialysis, and her article is comprehensive.

The issue is currently on the right at http://www.townsendletter.com/ and her article is
Myth Busting Common Misconceptions of Kidney Disease
by Dr. Jenna C. Henderson

Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:42 am

This is kind of confusing
TSH normal range is < 14


TSH is world standard at mIU/L (milli-international units per liter)
Normal US levels are  0.4-4.2 mIU/L For adults.

So lets say we use the standard measures on your postings!
On 6/16/16 TSH was 5.3, on 11/21/16 TSH was 6.6


Based on this, YOU ARE HYPOTHYROID and should be supplementing with replacement therapy!

T4 FREE normal range is .27-4.2 uIU/mL

T4 Standard ranges are;
Serum Thyroxine-T4 Range 4.6-12 ug/dl

So it appears that either your reading the tests wrong or the lab is giving some messed up readings???

A GFR reading a reading of < 15 ml/min is stage 5 or KIDNEY FAILURE
So between 2/24/17 and 4/11/17 you moved into stage 5 as you were told on 6/1/17 you should have started dialysis.

Now look at your blood work and locate your Serum Creatinine number’s and go to this link which is a calculator and enter the info requested and it will give you your GFR number. That way you can see if the lab is giving you accurate results. Because with the numbers you presented and the length of time since. Your eyes and skin should be a bright yellow by now and lucky if you can get out of bed!!

https://www.davita.com/gfr-calculator/

See if you can check those numbers on your thyroid!!

I agree with OWEN’s post also!!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#6  Post by Vit C worked for me! » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:11 pm

Thanks for the info!

Johnwen, you are correct. I looked at the lab reports (rather than my spreadsheet) and the range is .27 -.42 on this lab test.

Ofonorow, I have skyped with Dr. Jenna Henderson, and follow her advice (I think that's why I have lasted as long as I have without dialysis). I believe she had a transplant at one point, and wanted to speak with someone who actually experienced what I'm going through. I'm definitely interested in reading how Pauling dealt with his kidney disease.

I don't think its that Dr's worried about vitamin A interfering with kidneys, but that barely working kidneys might not be able to remove any excess Vitamin A, and the build up could become toxic to the entire body. CKD patients become toxic because the kidneys can't remove all the excess products from the blood (BUN, creatinine, phosphorus and potassium levels get high), and therefore need dialysis to do that. Vitamin C I believe is water soluble and excess would be removed by kidneys, presuming one is still making urine. But what about Vitamin A? And would Vitamin C or Vitamin A at the 3 gram Heart Tech dose pose a problem for someone who might become anuric, and on dialysis?

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#7  Post by pamojja » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:43 am

Vit C worked for me! wrote:I don't think its that Dr's worried about vitamin A interfering with kidneys, ...


The last 3 years I made an intriguing observation always during my six-week vacation from January each year to South-India, that my kidney and liver function turned out optimal - while with the second test-batch done in the second half of the year at home, they always worsen. Where it should be the other way round due to the widespread pollution present in India.

One difference at home would be, that I do drink a glass of organic red wine and up to 25.000 IUs vitamin A at home, while not in India. Will try to do without wine and less vitamin A this year to see if it makes a difference (only took above 20,000 IUs since about 3-4 years, and found it ceased my infrequent psoriasis-outbreaks).

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#8  Post by Vit C worked for me! » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:29 pm

That's interesting. I am certainly not knowledgable in vitamins, nor health care, just curious. Not sure what the seasonal weather might be in South India during that time, but wondering if perhaps an increase in Vitamin D from tropical sun might have some type of synergistic effect on your stores of vitamin A? Of course, it could be sunny summer where you are during the rest of the year, while you are taking the Vitamin A, so maybe there is no difference in increase of sun/natural vit D absorption wise. Or maybe plentiful tropical fruits with vitamin C while in India? Do you experience any improvement in psoriasis while India?

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#9  Post by pamojja » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:15 am

It's not the vitamin D. Also first thought could drop vitamin D3 intake during that exclusively sunny 6-weeks. But then after such short times my serum 25(OH)D levels always tanked. Therefore took some for not causing such a drop each time. Last fall reached the highest vitamin D serum level of 135 ng/ml yet. Back from India in February still was at 97 (30-100 normal range). Still same pattern.

Psoriasis was infrequent in both places, till I reached a daily intake of 25.000 IU. Already decreased a bit, but psoriasis didn't come back (quite understandably, since vitamin A is stored in the liver for a long time, once filled up it will last for a long time).

Therefore I think it could have been the combination of high vitamin A with wine. The only other explanation possible, would be the many liquid Ayurvedic preparations which I use while there. However, the six week for such stark improvements seem just a bit to short, while the rest of the year long enough to cause raising liver and kidney markers.

The other opposite inconsistency between the 6 weeks in India and the rest of the year home, is that inflammation markers (CRP, ESR) always rises quite high there, while at home always returns to optimal.

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#10  Post by Vit C worked for me! » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:35 pm

I had asked my doctor about how CKD might be treated in other countries around the world, since I read that in India, Ayurvedic medicine can keep people off dialysis for extended periods of time. I was cautioned about taking Ayurvedic herbs because they could have high levels of heavy metals and other contaminants. I wonder if that, or perhaps higher levels of pollution there, might affect those particular inflammation markers. Do you test for heavy metals?

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Re: Vit C and Chronic Kidney Disease

Post Number:#11  Post by pamojja » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:34 am

Vit C worked for me! wrote:Do you test for heavy metals?


Yes, since 9 years I do yearly hair tissue mineral analysis. Only marker which ever went higher then normal for 1 year and down again is uranium.


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