Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:51 am

My husband has been taking large doses of Vitamin C for years. He had a stroke on May 27th, and we were both very disturbed to learn that in spite of the Vitamin C he had been taking for over 20 years, he still has vascular disease. The scans, etc., picked up on the vascular disease when they were taking images of the arteries leading up to his brain.

I wanted to join the forum to discuss this. How can this be? Is Vitamin C only good for coronary arteries, and not those arteries which lead to the brain?

When we first started taking Vitamin C, we were using the Bronson Labs brand, but we noticed that it no longer seemed to be as effective as it once was. To us, the product had definitely changed. Then, we started using Now Foods Sodium Ascorbate. I'm wondering if the source of the Vitamin C was the problem. My husband should NOT have had vascular disease of any type if he was taking sufficient quantities of Vitamin C.


What was the "large" dosage of vitamin C that your husband was taking over the years? Did he keep it up, or lapse before the stroke?

Do you know his total cholesterol? Is he diabetic?

In the first case that Pauling reported, the scientist was alive taking 5,000 mg of vitamin C, but still suffered heart disease. It wasn't until the scientist added 5,000 mg of lysine, that his condition dramatically improved.



Linus Pauling wrote:Two and one half years ago, (1991) I was in a meeting of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States. I wa s in the hallway of the academy building and another member of the academy came up to me. He said, Dr. Pauling, " I have heart disease. My brother, my father both died of heart attacks. I am a biochemist but I was retired from the National Institutes of Health several years ago for disability because of my heart. I have had 3 by-pass operations, and I can't have any more by-pass operations. I like to walk, but I have trouble. After I have walked a little way I develop angina pectoris pain in my heart. If I take a nitroglycerin tablet, I can walk a little farther, and then I may have to take another nitroglycerin tablet." He went on to say," I have been taking vitamin C, 5 grams a day for several years because of your recommendation. Is there something else that I could do that would permit me to walk?"

I said, "I could make a suggestion, it has never been tried before. Take Lysine."

http://www.vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11598
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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#2  Post by afternoondelight1031 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:15 am

Hello, Owen,

Thank you for responding to my inquiry. My husband is now 62 years old, but when he was in his forties, we read several books by Linus Pauling, and we immediately started to take Vitamin C. I always made sure that I took at least 18 grams of Vitamin C daily, but my husband was only taking about 8 grams daily. He made sure that he never missed a day. If he got a cold, etc., he always increased the dosage. In addition, several years ago, when we learned that Linus Pauling recommended taking Lysine with Vitamin C, we both started taking that supplement as well. My husband was taking about 3 grams of Lysine daily. (Now, however, he is taking 5 grams daily since his stroke).

He is not a diabetic. I do not know what his cholesterol levels are.

I find this disturbing because in my view, I think that even at a dose of 8 grams of C a day, coupled with 3 grams of Lysine a day, this should have been enough to prevent vascular disease. If it were not for his stroke and the different tests and scans that he had as a result of the stroke, we never would have know that he even had vascular disease. Up until this time, we imagined that because of his daily supplementation with Vitamin C and Lysine, all was well in the Vascular Department. Imagine how surprised we both were to learn that, in spite of taking Vitamin C and L-Lysine, his arteries ended up getting diseased anyway!

Now, the doctors have him on Plavix (blood thinner), aspirin, and Lisinopril for high blood pressure. They wanted him to take a statin, but we refused, since we've heard nothing but horrible things about statins and have a friend who now suffers permanent memory loss as a result of having taken statins.

When my husband was discharged from the hospital, the doctors also told him that it was dangerous for him to take the doses of Vitamin A and Vitamin E as recommended by Linus Pauling. They told him that Vitamin A and Vitamin E are fat-soluable, and that Vitamin E could cause bleeding problems, how that he is on Plavix.

We have spent over 20 years taking care of ourselves so that we would not end up in the hands of the AMA, and guess what? We're there anyway, and we are both discouraged and are trying to figure out how in the world this could have happened? My husband is now being forced into early retirement because of this stroke.

I know that there are some readers who will tell me that my husband should not be taking Plavix or any of the other meds that the doctors have him on, but my husband is the one who had the terrifying stroke, not them. It is easy to give advice when it's someone else's body, and not one's own. I feel that he needs, at least for now, to remain on the Plavix, the aspirin, and the blood pressure medicine. I just hope that these pills are not going to interfere with the Linus Pauling Therapy, and vice versa.

So, I sure would appreciate any thoughts from anyone in regard to all of the above. I await any responses.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#3  Post by maryclaire » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:34 am

I'm very interested in this topic as my mom had a stroke and I'm trying my darnest to avoid the same.

Do you know if he has had a blood test for CRP or lp(a)?

What was his stress level and what did he do to relieve the stress?

What was his diet like?

Did he have any bad habits that would negate the good supplements?

Has he had his hormones tested?

Wishing a speedy recovery for your husband!

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#4  Post by afternoondelight1031 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:32 pm

Hello,

I do not recall my husband having any bloodwork for CRP or lp(a). My husband went to the chiropractor and had his neck manipulated five days before the stroke. Although this is a controversial topic, the doctors mentioned that they are seeing more and more people presenting in Emergency Rooms with arterial dissection after having their necks manipulated by a chiropractor. When my husband first went to the hospital, they took all sorts of scans of him and said that his left vertebral artery was dissected. This means that it was torn. The stroke was secondary. In other words, they believe that the stroke was caused by the arterial dissection. I really don't know what caused my husband's stroke. What raised a red flag for me, however, was when they said that his arteries were diseased. For him to be taking Vitamin C and Lysine, while living a healthy lifestyle, to end up with diseased arteries anyway is, to say the least, most disconcerting.

I do not know if the brands of Vitamin C that we were taking were of good quality. I am completely in the dark as to how he could end up with vascular disease in spite of the intake of C and Lysine. I have decided to purchased some Vitamin C from Owen's website, as I am now afraid to trust the brands that I had been using (Bronson Labs and Now Foods)

My husband has always been physically fit. He exercises. He eats well. No bad habits. This just hit out of the blue. If the doctors had said, "Your husband had a stroke as a result of chiropractic neck manipulation, but his arteries look GREAT!" I would be at peace. This, I could accept. But that's not what they said. They said, "Your husband had a stroke because of tears in his arteries, which may have been the result of chiropractic neck manipulation, but in addition, we have noticed that his arteries are DISEASED." Diseased arteries in spite of taking Vitamin C and Lysine for many years. We are both very disturbed by this and are seeking answers, if possible.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#5  Post by Joanna45 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:48 pm

First I would get a second opinion..and I do think that it matters what brand of vitamin C or ascorabe acid you use. I use heart Tech from tower labs because it has the Lysine proline Vit E Vitamin A all in the same jar so saves me money..then I take super k,magnesium, niacin, a daily vitamin/ mineral supplement and a B complex.i had 50% narrowing ..in March had ultrasound of my arteries and all were clear.i monitor my Lpa and CRP and try to keep them as low as possible..and to eat organic food and Whole Foods as much as possible..
Last edited by Joanna45 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#6  Post by zarfas » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:57 pm

Joanna45 wrote:First I would get a second opinion..and I do think that it matters what brand of vitamin C or ascorabe acid you use. I use heart Tech from tower labs because it has the Lysine proline Vit E Vitamin A all in the same jar so saves me money..then I take super k,magnesium, niacin, a daily vitamin/ mineral supplement and a B complex.i had 50% narrowing ..in March had ultrasound of my arteries and all were clear.i monitor my Lpa and CRP and try them as low as possible..and to eat organic food and Whole Foods as much as possible..


I am correct in thinking that if I have a narrowing of my arteries, I would have a high lp(a)?
So measure my CRP, lpa via blood test and I can avoid the radiation from a heart scan...

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#7  Post by maryclaire » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:19 pm

I’m interested in what kind of test the doctors ran that made them make the diagnosis of diseased arteries. Thanks!

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#8  Post by Joanna45 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:29 pm

Zafras
I do believe that the lower your Lpa is and CRP the better shape your arteries are..I have not had a cat scan ever ..but I might do it once to get my calcium score ..but the danger is getting them a lot.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#9  Post by afternoondelight1031 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:30 am

Hello,

My husband had about four different tests. I can't remember specifically what they were called because I was in a completely traumatized mindset at the time. He had several different CT Scans and MRI's done. I remember them injecting him with dye so they could see what was going on in his arterial walls. He also had an angioplasty done, where the doctor went up through the wrist in order to see what was going on.

My husband and I truly believe that poor quality Vitamin C (and possibly poor quality Lysine) are the reason for his vascular disease. We are now going to start purchasing the Cardio-C product offered at this website because we no longer trust any other manufacturer to provide us with quality Vitamin C, Lysine, and Proline.

When Linus Paul wrote his book, How To Live Longer And Feel Better, he recommended Bronson Laboratories. He mentioned that this was where he purchased his vitamins. But that was long ago, and I believe that the quality of Bronson Lab products has steadily gone down ever since. When my husband and I first started taking Bronson Laboratories Vitamin C over 20 years ago, we felt really good. But about several years ago, we noticed a definite change in the product. The very appearance of the Vitamin C product had changed. We always used to buy the Sodium Ascorbate Crystals. When they would arrive, that's what they looked like: crystals. Over time, however, we recognized that sometimes the product would come to us as crystals; other times it would look like nothing but white powder. We also noticed that the potency of the product had greatly diminished. My husband has always been in good shape. A dose of 8 grams in one shot would always send him running to the toilet (unless he was sick and needed a higher dose). It was always very easy for him to reach bowel intolerance at a much lower dose than I required. At that time, I was taking about 18 to 24 grams per day. In the course of time, I noticed that I was still getting colds anyway. It got to the point where I was taking 40 grams a day and still not achieving bowel intolerance. Something was clearly wrong. I then decided to test my husband, who is notorious for NOT being able to take anything higher than 8 grams of Vitamin C at a shot. I gave him 16 grams and awaited the explosion, if you will pardon my expression. Long story short, it never came. That's when we realized that the Vitamin C product manufactured by Bronson Laboratories no longer consisted of high quality Vitamin C. For us, the proof was right there in front of us.

As we cast about for another Vitamin C powder, we settled on Now Foods Sodium Ascorbate, which we tried for several years. It was during this time that my husband had his stroke and was discovered to have vascular disease.

In my view, the reason for my husband's vascular disease was because for the past five or six years, we had been taking poor quality Vitamin C. It's as simple as that. We are big into orthomolecular medicine. We are sold on it, and we believe in Linus Pauling's theories. Nothing will ever move us from them. My husband's vascular disease is not a result of any failure on the part of Linus Pauling's theory, for what he wrote is true and always will be true. I am convinced that poor quality Vitamin C and poor quality Lysine are the reason for this.

This morning I placed an order for the Cardio-C product sold here at this website and signed up for automatic shipping. According to the website, the Vitamin C is high quality, and it is not manufactured in China. If my husband's arteries eventually heal, then we will know that what I suspect about the other Vitamin C manufacturers was true.

I am not afraid to name names, and that is what I have done by specifically calling out Bronson Laboratories and Now Foods for what I believe to be an inferior product that is not giving people what they truly need in order to prevent vascular disease. When people's lives are at stake, we cannot afford to be politically correct or courteous.

I shall keep everyone posted.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#10  Post by tjohnson_nb » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:54 am

I don't know, I have used 5 or 6 different brands (but not Bronson) and honestly can't tell the difference. I can tell when I take 4g I get a small burst of energy so it seems it is working. I take lots of Kirkland 1g tablets as well when not taking powder. You can always ask for a COA (certificate of analysis) from the the retailer and see what their response is.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#11  Post by pamojja » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:48 pm

afternoondelight1031 wrote:We also noticed that the potency of the product had greatly diminished. My husband has always been in good shape. A dose of 8 grams in one shot would always send him running to the toilet (unless he was sick and needed a higher dose). It was always very easy for him to reach bowel intolerance at a much lower dose than I required. At that time, I was taking about 18 to 24 grams per day. In the course of time, I noticed that I was still getting colds anyway. It got to the point where I was taking 40 grams a day and still not achieving bowel intolerance. Something was clearly wrong. I then decided to test my husband, who is notorious for NOT being able to take anything higher than 8 grams of Vitamin C at a shot. I gave him 16 grams and awaited the explosion, if you will pardon my expression. Long story short, it never came. That's when we realized that the Vitamin C product manufactured by Bronson Laboratories no longer consisted of high quality Vitamin C. For us, the proof was right there in front of us.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. The Crystaline structure of nutrients can be microscopically as small as to appear as powder. Doesn't change a bit of potency. Also when I tested my bowel-tolerance right at the beginning it was at about 50 g to produce a flush. And as you know bowel-tolerance can increase sharply with increasing health-issues. Also I would not be at all surprised about CVD showing up at older age, it's pretty common and usually starts to grow already at middle age - might very well had started already much before your husband started on 8 g vitamin C. Which actually isn't bowel-tolerance (of one day), but how much he could tolerate in one dose. For example in my case I could take 10g in one dose, but divided up into 6 g every 2 hour I reached my bowel-tolerance of 50 g/d at the end of the day.

A good place to check the reality of benefits/risk for most common medications is http://www.thennt.com/nnt/statins-for-h ... t-disease/ for example statins, but also report on aspirin and plavix.

With my 10 years experience in taking in total about 24 g/d of ascorbic acid powder, my experience was that with many infections that intake was simply not enough. Also taking a blood-test of vitamin C after actually having taken 38 g the preceding 12 hours made it clear that it only was a fraction of what it should have been with such high an intake = biochemical individuality.

Therefore so many factors to consider: too low a dose for a preexisting illness, too low for recurring acute infections, too low for a particular bio-chemical metabolism requiring much more?

100% ascorbic acid powder in my eyes is just too cheap (and too easily tested) to be adulterated with anything else.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#12  Post by pamojja » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:01 pm

afternoondelight1031 wrote:My husband is now 62 years old, but when he was in his forties, we read several books by Linus Pauling, and we immediately started to take Vitamin C. ...but my husband was only taking about 8 grams daily. He made sure that he never missed a day. If he got a cold, etc., he always increased the dosage...

We have spent over 20 years taking care of ourselves so that we would not end up in the hands of the AMA, and guess what? We're there anyway, and we are both discouraged and are trying to figure out how in the world this could have happened? My husband is now being forced into early retirement because of this stroke.

I know that there are some readers who will tell me that my husband should not be taking Plavix or any of the other meds that the doctors have him on, but my husband is the one who had the terrifying stroke, not them. It is easy to give advice when it's someone else's body, and not one's own. I feel that he needs, at least for now, to remain on the Plavix, the aspirin, and the blood pressure medicine. I just hope that these pills are not going to interfere with the Linus Pauling Therapy, and vice versa.


Just let's look how many are helped with Plavix and previous stroke:

http://www.thennt.com/nnt/clopidogrel-for-cardiovascular-prevention-after-prior-heart-attack-or-stroke/

Benefits in NNT

1 in 50 were helped (cardiovascular problem prevented)
1 in 77 were helped (non-fatal heart attack prevented)
1 in 200 were helped (non-fatal stroke prevented)
1 in 333 were helped (death prevented)

Harms in NNT

1 in 400 were harmed (major bleeding event*)
1 in 71 were harmed (rash, compared to aspirin usage)
1 in 91 were harmed (diarrhea, compared to aspirin usage)



Or how many are helped with Aspirin and previous stroke:

http://www.thennt.com/nnt/aspirin-for-cardiovascular-prevention-after-prior-heart-attack-or-stroke/

Benefits in NNT

1 in 50 were helped (cardiovascular problem prevented)
1 in 333 were helped (prevented death)
1 in 77 were helped (prevented non-fatal heart attack)
1 in 200 were helped (prevented non-fatal stroke)

Harms in NNT

1 in 400 were harmed (major bleeding event*)



It is not the matter that advise is easy to give, it's rather a decision really difficult to make without knowing the facts (ie. benefits versus harms). I was in that difficult position too, but immediately got very cautious when all Doctors which considered it simply irresponsible not to take, without even one of them being able to give me any clear answers on real benefits. So obviously to me they were just pushing those drugs on to me, without enabling me for an informed decision and consent. After googling these facts I refused them all (a vascular graft, statin, aspirin, plavix, beta-blocker).

Which was when I came across Linux Pauling therapy. Now that therapy has never been trialed and therefore nobody could ever give such numbers (needed to treat; NNT), as above given for example for Statins, Plavix or Aspirin (and if some here do at the vitamin C forum, just be reasonable and know they can't really know). But with really nothing to loose, ..nothing to loose and therefore gave it a fair trial.

Only after about 6 years it worked fully by having a 60% walking-disability from a 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta bifurcation due to PAD revoked. Though it's good effects were already observable from the first year.

Which I'm very grateful for. But even if it wouldn't had worked, there would be nobody to blame. Nowhere Pauling declared high dose vitamin C has been thoroughly tested and would prevent death in every one who takes, guarantied.

Which would a NNT of 1 in 1. While for block buster drug of a statin it's actually only 1 in 83 patient taking this drug, or 1 in 333 for Plavix or Aspirin?!?

How reasonable would such assumptions be?

Consider with all informations available and with great care. It is a really difficult decision for all of us.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#13  Post by jimmylesante » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:01 am

Neck manipulations are barbaric :O and apparently account for 3% of patients that get it done have a stroke.
A dose of 10mg Valium followed by the gentlest of mobilisations you achieve the same result without the barbaric trauma.
Perhaps the doctors are covering for their chiro colleague and saying your man had vascular disease anyway? It would be nice to get an utrasound done to see how much vascular disease he allegedly has or better still asking the hospital for the results and report to see and compare with a $40 carotid/VA doppler ultrasound.
I have never been a fan of neck cracking.
eDOC recommends DMSO post stroke to maintain and regain any deficiencies.

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#14  Post by afternoondelight1031 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:28 am

My husband has only been taking Plavix and 81 grams of aspirin for four weeks now, and he is now complaining of horrible stomach upset. We suspect that it is the Plavix and the aspirin. We are thinking about having him go off of it for several days in order to see if the stomach upset goes away. We've also noticed an ugly rash breaking out on his body, another side effect of Plavix. This is the problem with medications. They might be able to solve a problem in one area, but inevitably, they always end up causing problems in 15 other areas. I want him off these meds and just to take the Cardio-C, but I'm afraid that if he stops taking the Plavix and the aspirin, his blood will clot. Thoughts anyone?

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Re: Suffered Stroke after 20 years on high vitamin C

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:09 am

Many years ago we noticed and reported on two trials of Plavix that were cut short because the placebo group was faring better than the Plavix group. These reports made minor medical news, but because these trials were stopped, there was no paper for doctors to read. In a perfect world, the "super" aspirin Plavix would never have been approved.

Dr. Levy's book STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER does open your eyes to the problems of blood clots forming, especially in people with "unstable" angina, leading to a MI (heart attack).

On the other hand, aspirin is known to destroy stomach tissue, and this is probably what is happening to your husband.

I hope johnwen comments.

I would continue the vitamin C, lysine and proline, and maybe increase the vitamin C, and make sure he is getting good amounts of the other nutrients Pauling recommended, especially vitamin E (e.g. Unique-E from A. C. Grace.. Used to be available from Life Extension, LEF.ORG). Over time, and with vitamin K2 (to reduce any calcium in the arteries), his arterial health should improve to the point that the risk of a heart attack caused by a clot from one of his coronary arteries suffering a lesion, is substantially reduced.

So the question is when to start weaning the aspirin. I leave this discussion to johnwen, but do not do anything "cold turkey." Reduce any drugs gradually, as or after you have increased vitamin C and vitamin E.
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