IV slow drip versus Push for CVD

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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IV slow drip versus Push for CVD

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:53 pm

Hi Owen

Looks like I am going to give it a go also. I seldom fail and the chalange is certainly obvious. Time will tell.

In the meantime please assist me with the following question:

Personally I very much believe in Pauling's recommendations. In particular in regard to prevention of heart disease.

As we do live in 2007 and a very new world, I have been asked to explain or comment regarding the difference between potential benefits of receiving oral Vit C by direct drip or straight push infusion of Vit c solution against the Pauling's oral recommendation. In particular I am talking here about existing heart disease patients.

Here is the description for Vit C in solution option available here in Sydney and about which I have been asked to compare and comment. I am sure this question has come up many time before.

"Vitamin C in a solution (made up of saline or glucose or a combination of both) can be injected either quickly using straight pushes, or more slowly using a drip. With an infusion lasting 5-20 minutes, you can inject doses ranging from 6.25g to 22.5g, while the drips could potentially transfuse up to 100g of Vitamin C in a 30-minute to 2-hour session. The body will not actually hold onto such large doses of Vitamin C; however the goal is to super-saturate tissues with high levels. The excess is excreted in our urine, so it's important to drink water. Tissue saturation cannot be achieved without intravenous dosage.


thanks

G.

Sydney

Australia


This is an excellent question. (If you want to join the forum, you must register, but then you also must send me email with the forum user id you chose. I must activate all new accounts.)

At a high level, we don't consider either the "push" or "slow drip IV" vitamin C to be a viable option for cardiovascular disease, which (remember) is a chronic or low-grade form of scurvy. Providing an ultra-high concentration, e.g. from a Push or Slow Driv IV, is not all that effective for cardiovascular disease because while intense, it is too short lived. We need continuous vitamin C, which mimics ascorbate levels in most other animals.

The best explanation is the Dynamic Flow theory provided by Drs. Hickey/Roberts in their excellent (and must read) book ASCORBATE: The Science of VItamin C (http://www.lulu.com/ascorbate).

Read to understand that vitamin C is continually produced in the livers of other animals, and "flows" through the body continually, much like water. This is called dynamic flow, and we humans can approach this condition with as little as 500 mg every 4 hours.

Now, intense elevated levels of vitamin C may be required to fight cancer. This is explained in another excellent Hickey/Roberts book CANCER: Survival and Nutrition (http://www.lulu.com)


Owen


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Question on Ester-C

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:20 am


Dear Owen

Thank you again
Please also tell me Urgently for a meeting that I am having today If Ester C the non acidic version is as good as standard C or is there another option of less acidic oral C that your/ Pouling etc methods recommends ?

Thanks
G.
Sydney Australia




See:
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/esterc.htm
Why the Foundation Does Not Recommend Ester-C


Ester-C is calcium ascorbate, and it contains byproducts which would be considered impurities in other versions.

Keep in mind, you can always follow Linus Pauling's lead and add some bicarbonate of soda to ascorbic acid, making your vitamin C less acidic.

You can't go the other way, and make sodium ascorbate more acidic.
Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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More Questions

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:29 am


I can not tell you how much I appreciate you reply.

I have studied the products available here in the market. Having now set aside the question of Ester C, and having read the attachment from you, I have realized that all the over the counter VIT C product her show the ingredients per tablet:

Ascorbic acid 200mg
Sodium ascorbate 200mg
And some also include Calcium ascorbate

BUT none seem to show L-ascorbic Acid.

Further, When you say L-ascorbic Acid, do you mean the same Ascorbic acid as per these common ingredients list? Or is L- signify another type ???

Yes I did see the comment on the attachment from you i.e. that "some claim L-ascorbic acid is not vitamin C!" and hence my question.

Until I communicated with you all this has just gone unnoticed( as it does to all lay man). Even the so called trained health food retailers here have no Idea what I am talking about. This does not surprise me and of course suggests to me some great business opportunities.

In regard to calcium ascorbate - can you please comment about the inclusion of this in the tablet formula above i.e. not in Ester C . ALSO please comment about the significance of the word "calcium" where today many believe that "calcium" deposits are part of coronary arterial blockages. Therefore taking Vit C in the formula above could be a question that I will come across.

Yes I am a business man not a scientist. But most consumers also are not scientist so it's a good answer to have in my arsenal.

Thank you so much.

George



Dear George,

Your questions are excellent. Before I address the issue of ascorbic acid versus l-ascorbic acid (should be the same thing) may I suggest that you obtain and read Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (1986) and reprinted last year. Everything that you want to know about vitamin C is probably in this book from an authorative source.

For example, we learn that the vitamin C molecule consists of 20 atoms (C6H8O6) that can be arranged 4 different ways (called sterioisomers) just like your left hand and right hand have the same fingers, but are different. Only one arrangement, called l-ascorbic acid cures scruvy, and is therefore vitamin C. (The other isomers are d-ascorbic acid, ld-ascorbic acid and dl-ascorbic acid).

Any product labeled vitamin C is by definition l-ascorbic acid, and the other sterioisomers, if they are present, would be impurities.

There are several confusions. First the argument from the Naturalists that ascorbic acid is not the "real" vitamin C, but this is largely nonsense. (Thank goodness for Linus Pauling!)

Then, when ascorbic acid breaks down, or rather becomes oxidized, it is called dehydroascorbate. (And yes the d-ascorbic acid and dehydroascorbate are two entirely different chemicals). The reason we mention dehydroascorbate is because this is the form that is most easily absorbed into cells from the blood (most easily passes through cell membranes, and possibly the blood brain barrier) . It is my understanding that there is at least some dehydroascorbate in Ester-C, and this may explain why experiments have shown that Ester-C is absorbed into cells faster.

As far as calcium, one of our living oracles, Dr. Thomas Levy, MD, does not recommend calcium ascorbate (and in fact only recomments vitamin C orally as either ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate.)

For the record, ascorbic acid shouldn't be given IV - only sodium ascorbate.

Have you found this paper yet?

http://www.internetwks.com/owen/TruthCal.htm
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Post Number:#4  Post by w6nrw » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:46 am

This is a slight tilt off topic, but I am using your statement:

Then, when ascorbic acid breaks down, or rather becomes oxidized, it is called dehydroascorbate. (And yes the d-ascorbic acid and dehydroascorbate are two entirely different chemicals). The reason we mention dehydroascorbate is because this is the form that is most easily absorbed into cells from the blood (most easily passes through cell membranes, and possibly the blood brain barrier) .


Based upon this info I reason that the decline of ascorbic acid when it is dissolved in water for later use can be a
benefit. (the half-life of ascorbic acid is 4 hours in water, or 30 minutes in an empty stomac) So the decline in
vitamin C generates a very beneficial cell food in the remaining liquid.

Is my inference faulty? If not, it is a win-win situatiation
Curiosity cures boredom, there aint no cure for curiosity . . .

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Brilliant Observation

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:18 pm

My mistake. Your observation would be correct IFF ascorbate "breaks down" into dehydroascorbate in water.

It certainly does in part, and the yellow color is usually identified as dehydroascorbate. But I fear it breaks down in other ways that can't be converted back into vitamin C. Check out the bottom diagram from the Sherry Lewin 1976 book:

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/slewin.html

Secondly, small amounts of dehydroascorbate may be helpful, as long as it can be reduced back into ascorbic acid, say by glutathione. I can't imagine "lots" of the oxidized version, in general, is all that healthful . It is something like hydrogen peroxide. Instead of grabbing spare oxygen oxygen atoms, dehydroascorbate wants to release them into its environment.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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