VITAMINS "INCREASE CHOLESTEROL"

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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antioxidant_addict

VITAMINS "INCREASE CHOLESTEROL"

Post Number:#1  Post by antioxidant_addict » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:02 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3673365.stm

I don't know whether this has been addressed on the site, but I'd thought I'd post anyway ans see what the response was.

Dr Edward Fisher, director of the Lipid Treatment & Research Center at the NYU Medical Center, said: "Our study is the first to document this association between antioxidant vitamins and VLDL cholesterol.
"It does appear that antioxidant vitamins may be potentially harmful for the heart based on their ability to increase the secretion of VLDL in the liver cells and in the mice that we studied."

YET HE SAYS ?!?! :
However he said there was evidence from other animal studies that antioxidants "could have beneficial effects on other parts of the body, such as protecting the arteries from atherosclerosis and the pancreas and other organs from damage caused by diabetes."
WHAT THE?
==========
I've never heard of VLDL cholesterol before. I wonder how much of the A C and E were being used and what health were the people in doing the trials ??
Were they given all the same food and did all the same exercise?

There always seems to be a focus on the negative first in the article with the "could have beneficial effects..." bit at the end where people's attention has flagged...

I notice Mark Levine's name being mentioned. Isn't he responsible for the current RDA ?

I've read the book : "RDA, The Rediculous Dietary allowance" and isn't Mark Levine slammed in that book?

Cheers,
Steve
Bury, UK[/b]

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Flawed Logic

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:10 am

Very Low Density Lipoprotein. Big puffy cholesterol molecules, not heretofore known to be "harmful," at least by me.

Anyway, the logic they use is antioxidants increase VLDL, ergo
Antioxidants are bad.

From my point of view, if antioxidants increase VLDL, then
Antioxidants are good.

For the upteenth time, outside the minds of the medical profession, elevated cholesterol is not the CAUSE of heart disease, it is the EFFECT, i.e., the body's response.

Think about the minds behind this propaganda. First, they are good and know what they are doing. What kind of person is willing to put lives, or at least good health of millions in jeapordy? Hard to fathom. It does make one hope for an after life where these people receive their due.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

djepicurus

Post Number:#3  Post by djepicurus » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:04 pm

This is not just poor science. I would consider this irresponsible Journalism. How can they magnify something like this which will now be carried by every major news outlet. If Vitamins are a risk factor for heart disease then can someone tell me why the healthiest people and those with the least heart problems are the ones eating the most vitamin rich foods?

Dottore

Post Number:#4  Post by Dottore » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:25 am

Just in case there is some confusion about the various players such as LDL, HDL. VLDL etc., here is a brief summary that I wrote for and posted in another forum:

Total normal cholesterol (TC) level is 260 mg/dl (6.7 mmol/L) worldwide but, here again, there really is no cholesterol level in the blood at all! Think about it.

Briefly, cholesterol is water soluble and needs to be carried inside submarines called lipoproteins.
There are two types of submarines, LDL and HDL. They keep the powder (chol.) dry on the journeys throughout the body.
And there are barges.
The LDL subs are made of low density materials for the purpose of taking up less space (they are in the majority) and for agility and manoeuvrability. Their task is to transport goods including cholesterol from the factory (liver) to those tissues that have placed an order. Orders can be standing or as needed (sporadic). All cells need regular cholesterol replenishment to survive.

HDL submarines are of high density materials, they are slow boats that pick up worn, depleted cholesterol and take it back to the factory (liver) for either re-processing or removal.
Calling LDL bad and HDL good is akin to calling the grocery delivery guys good and the undertaker's hearse bad.

Neither LDL nor HDL subs are normally capable of penetrating the canal banks called the endothelium, which is the inside of the arteries.
Thus , the theory that LDL will form fatty plaque leading to clots etc is simplistic. The number of LDL subs ought to correlate with prevalence of atherosclerosis, right? The more LDL subs the more athero.????
This is not the case, in fact the higher the LDL (recent research has proven) the better protected and supplied the tissues and the endothelial walls are.
Atherosclerosis is not caused by excess LDL or TC or HDL - ever.
Factors that weaken the banks of the canals (arteries only, not veins) like elevated homocysteine, smoking effects, microbial infection, glycemic problems (blood sugar), carb excess and, above all, lack of essential micronutrients damage the endothelium. As this happens, the liver will receive emergency orders to supply cholesterol for repair work. Again, LDL subs are dispatched en masse. Bad guys?????????

When something drastic happens to where the LDL subs are not able to pick up cholesterol from the factory due to inability to manufacture it or being sold out due to unexpected oversupply to needy areas of damaged structures the time soon comes where the moment of truth can be seen in TC blood levels. Drastically lowered cholesterol numbers that do NOT recover spell DEATH. The liver's ability to supply is overwhelmed and the patient is doomed.
Without cholesterol you die.
Now there is oxydized cholesterol, a different animal altogether. It's a rancid substance like a subload of rotten fish but that is not normal and a subject for another time.
And then there is VLDL. Sounds mysterious does it not?
When VLDL barges leave the liver, HDL uploads apolipoproteins to it. VLDL barges are mostly made of fats (triglycerides) with a bit of protein to strengthen the shell. When VLDL reduces in size enough, shrinks, it (as if by magic) becomes LDL, most of which is shuttled back into the liver. During this process the apolipoproteins are transferred back to HDL, ready to be stuck back onto the VLDL that emerges from the liver. I think this may be caused by trade union (wharf workers) activities.
Various factors such as insulin resistance and lack of Vitamin C interfere with the mobilisation (metabolisation) of VLDL's; hence there are fewer LDL subs, less apolips to be transferred back to HDL subs and thus a lesser need for HDL subs to ship goods.
So, the fewer the number of VLDL "blubber-barges" spotted in the system the smaller the number of (needed) HDL subs. Meaning low HDL equals reduced VLDL activity. High HDL is when plenty of VLDL barges are in the harbour and en route.
Does this explain things?

Dottore

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Nice try

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:00 am

I'll give you an A for effort. I'll let others decide whether the explanation makes the picture clearer.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

Ralph Lotz
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The best explanation I have ever seen!

Post Number:#6  Post by Ralph Lotz » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:09 am

Dottore gets an A.
The "Cholesterol Police" get an F.
If you want high HDL, you have to have plenty of VLDL.

Dottore, can I post your explanation on my website?
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

Dottore

Post Number:#7  Post by Dottore » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:39 pm

Yes, of course you may, Ralph and you deserve another two stars for asking. I was thinking of having (two-ply) toilet paper printed with this information so that every time people go to unload themselves they will be able to link the two substances in the spirit of Hahnemann. You know "Similia similibus curentur".
And the information will stick. First on the paper, later in the mind.

Re-reading my explanation I say that it starts to get a trifle nebulous after the words "And then there is...".

Those not entirely familiar with the subject matter may have to re-read in order to have it appear clear.

Dottore

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Similia similibus curentur

Post Number:#8  Post by Ralph Lotz » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:54 am

Two-Ply Toilet Tissue, The Rosetta Stone of Orthodox Cholesterol Propaganda.
Is this an endorsement or a condemnation for a Homeopathic Cholesterol Cure?
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

J.Lilinoe

still confused

Post Number:#9  Post by J.Lilinoe » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:03 pm

Dottore,
My intelligence level is down several notches from you so some of what you say
is confusing. I just don't get the part about VLDL and Lp(a) turning into LDL.
Plus I thought that a high level of HDL is good but your explanation makes it sound
like a high level of HDL means that there is too much VLDL thus a high level of HDL is not so good.
Hmmm.
But its good to hear from you again. Which forum are you on?

pigeonguy

Post Number:#10  Post by pigeonguy » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:39 pm

The LDL subs are made of low density materials for the purpose of taking up less space (they are in the majority) and for agility and manoeuvrability. Their task is to transport goods including cholesterol from the factory (liver) to those tissues that have placed an order. Orders can be standing or as needed (sporadic). All cells need regular cholesterol replenishment to survive.

HDL submarines are of high density materials, they are slow boats that pick up worn, depleted cholesterol and take it back to the factory (liver) for either re-processing or removal.
Calling LDL bad and HDL good is akin to calling the grocery delivery guys good and the undertaker's hearse bad.

Dottore


Hi all,


Sorry for being so late to this topic; I haven't been on the forum for awhile.

I'm confused! Easily done.

If LDL is low density how can that be to take up less space. I would think that something that is HIGH density would be packed tighter and therefore take up less space.

I guess molecules could be the same size but one type of molecule be low density and one type high density but then that would obviate the argument that the low density occurence was to take up less space.

Am I totally off track here? I am an electrical engineer and not in the bio-sciences field. I can handle electrical and magnetic fields but covalent bonds mystify me. <VBG>

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What am I missing

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:06 am

If LDL is low density how can that be to take up less space. I would think that something that is HIGH density would be packed tighter and therefore take up less space.



VLDL are very large

LDL are large

HDL are smaller

Who says LDL takes up less space? Maybe than VLDL
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

pigeonguy

Post Number:#12  Post by pigeonguy » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:55 pm

Thanks Owen. That makes more sense to my engineering brain.


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