Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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davsf
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Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#1  Post by davsf » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:55 pm

In July of 2008, I had a heart cath that showed 50% blockage in three of my coronary arteries, along with heavy calcification in several others. I started a regime of 20 grams vit c and 20 grams lysine with 5 grams proline daily, which was my bowel limit. This month (March, 2010), i experienced frequent chest pains with high blood pressure and shortness of breath. I have followed a very strict regime, including lots of exercise, diet, supplements, and healthy meals. i have kept my weight down. I can't think of anything else i could have done - but, a new heart cath showed my blockage inceased to 70% and 60% in those same arteries. They put in an eluting stent at the 70% spot, and my chest pains are now very minor, my blood pressure is back to normal, and I can resume normal activity. I still get fatigued but I recover after resting for a few minutes.

I conclude that taking my bowel limits of vitamin C (et al) was not effective in preventing the buildup of blockage in my coronary arteries. The folks at the hospital say that genetics (inherited characteristics) are the most important factor in the build up of coronary heart blockage.

Just so folks can know of my own experience.

I am changing my regime to still take 20 grams of lysine, but, instead of powdered ascorbic acid, I take 2 grapefruits and 1 orange daily, which, unlike the powdered (or capsuled) ascorbic acid, is very delicious and goes down very well in my stomach.

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:14 am

We appreciate the report and are sorry to hear that the therapy did not work in your case.

To help us classify your case/experience, would you mind answering a few questions?

1. What form of vitamin C were you taking for 20 months? (Also, before you stop vitamin C cold turkey and rely on fruits, I would suggest reading Dr. Levy's STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER livonbooks.com )

2. Do you have diabetes or elevated blood sugar?

3. What prescription drugs were you taking during this period?

4. Any dental work, including root canals?

5. Is there a chance you were taking your supplements at the same time as fiber? And were you taking Alpha Lipoic Acid at the same time as the lysine?

Thank you again for the report.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#3  Post by sharonstar » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:00 am

Owen,
Just curious about the remark about lysine and alpha lipoic acid. I always take lysine on an empty stomach but there are many times that I eat 30 minutes later along with supplements that include alpha lipoic acid. Should I wait longer to eat and take the supplements? Thanks.

Sharon

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:22 am

This is very recent information that I just received from Dr. Bush (I'll try to look up his reference). Here is his quote in a recent email to me

(think of Burt Berkson's book and how he saved two couples with damaged livers using ALA)?

My advice is to forget the Lysine for a while - its not a short term benefit unless you are off your food - or take it 3 hours apart from the ALA. Whilst you do ALA it bonds to Lysine so much that gastric juices cannot break the union and it is not absorbed.

Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#5  Post by davsf » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:51 am

While there are many alternative, *unapproved*, methods for coronary artery blockage, there isn't a single one that I could find where someone took a hard measurement BEFORE and AFTER the treatment. I guess my experience is unusual because they won't perform a heart cath (from which you get a true and accurate measurement of artery blockage), unless you are experiencing major chest pains (which I was for the last month or so). I saw for myself the blockage in the right coronary artery, and, I also saw plain and clear that after the stent was inserted, the whole artery lit up and flowed like a mighty river. Can anyone show where any alternatvie method, including massive vitamin C, achieved results like that? My right coronary artery is now 100% open, and that was accomplished by the insertion of a stent, NOT by any other treatment, including LIPITOR for the last 20 months. Even though my LDL readings were very good (50-60), the blockage continued to build up relentlessly. It seems there is no other alternative for me but to look forward to when my circumflex increases from the current 60% to 70% and they will insert another stent, which will open it up 100%.

I am not diabetic nor do I have any other physical ailments. I exercised vigorously every day (except for the last month, due to chest pains), both aerobic and anaerobic. My diet was as good as one can get and I kept my weight down to where folks said I was too skinny. I was not taking anything like the alpha thing you mentioned - just altace and lipitor. My blood pressure started increasing last month and I had to increase the altace - it is now obvious that the reason for the increase in BP was due to the blockage in the RCA.

I used several different brands of vit C, including tablets and capsules, but, mostly, about 20 grams of powder (NOW brand, which is claimed to be 100% L-Ascorbic acid), and I would take 5 grams 4 times a day. Additionally, I took tablets and capsules throughout each day in smaller quantities.

The folks at the hospital that work in the heart cath room (NOT the doctors, but the support staff) were very talkative and had lots to say about blocked coronary arteries. One of the elderly ladies there had been assisting in these operations for the last 8 years, doing from 8 to 10 per day. They had already done 10 when I was squeezed in late (after 7 pm), because it was considered an emergency. They told me that they had seen it all - some middle aged runners who had nearly totally blocked arteries, and some elderly, fat, folks with bad health habits who would have zero blockage in their coronary arteries. These ladies didn't believe there was much anyone could do about it because it was like gray hair - whatever you inherited is what you are stuck with. Of course, the doctors won't say anything but urge us in the standard ways, even though, in my case, all that didn't seem to matter. There is an abundance of clogged arteries in my family tree, so, it is likely that this is something that is poorly understood and, unless a breakthrough occurs soon, I will likely be in for more artery blockage, no matter what I do.

So, my story represents three hard data points (three heart caths over an 8 year period), from which interested parties can take for whatever it is worth to them.

At 60, I had unexplained tachycardia, and a heart cath was done which showed zero blockage - a totally healthy heart as far as arteries, valves, etc. are concerned. There was no explanation for the tachycardia, and it eventually went away. I suspected that it was due to having used aspartame for about 10 years prior, which I had abruptly stopped a few months earlier. Anyway, that problem went away and I assumed I was healthy and followed a very good diet (like Jack Lalaine's diet), and exercised vigorously for several years. Then, in 2008, I was experiencing minor chest pains and I had the CT scan (like an MRI, not a heart cath), which showed heavy calcification so they suggested a heart cath which showed 50% blockage in both the RCA and the circumflex. This was not enough to take any action over but to put me on daily lipitor, which I did, and, also, I found my way to the vit C website and started taking the massive doses daily. Then, in 2010, those same two blockage areas increased to 70% and 60% respectively, so, my case at least can give interested parties hard data to reflect upon.

I do have three fillings that I have had since my teenage years - it is incredible that these filling could cause a problem after so many years, especially since the assistants who deal with clogged arteries all day long every working day of their life are convinced that it is GENES that are the most important factor as to when, if ever, a persons coronary arteries start to clog up.

I also notice that I started getting a little gray hair around my ears about 3 years ago - it seems to me that we are held captive to whatever genes get turned on at whatever stage of our life that is called for from our inheritance. That makes the most sense to me.

I hope someone can get some use out of my story, which, unlike other testimonials, consists of hard data points before and after.

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:53 am

Thanks again for the report. What dosage of Lipitor were you put on? (If you watch any television, you are constantly subjected to that heart attack patient who now "trusts his heart" to Lipitor. It seems that your case is "hard data" the Lipitor was of no value either.) Also, you are/were taking coQ10 to compensate for the statin, correct?

It is known that amalgams age, and can become more dangerous over time, but I think you are correct that genetics are playing a key role in your case. It would be interesting to know what your Lp(a) level is? lef.org offers a VAP test kit under their blood tests.

No doubt that a stent (hopefully not medicated) increases blood flow. The problem is that it doesn't last as the area reoccludes.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#7  Post by Johnwen » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:11 am

This was not enough to take any action over but to put me on daily lipitor, which I did, and, also, I found my way to the vit C website and started taking the massive doses daily


Taking a statin and the Pauling program is a counter productive method and is outlined on the following link.

http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/caveat.htm

As far as seeing it first hand both my wife and myself have been spared further problems by following paulings reccomendations and it's documented on this forum. Somethings you have to look forward to is a bare metal stent usually will reclog in 3-12 months and drug eluding stent's usually 3-5 years. Bypass surgery 5-10 years. This is following the standard medical reccomendations. If you think Oranges and Grapefruits will keep you from a repeat problem then your doctors investment banker is really going to like you.
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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#8  Post by VanCanada » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:48 am

>> davsf: I have followed a very strict regime, including lots of exercise, diet, supplements, and healthy meals. i have kept my weight down. I can't think of anything else i could have done -

Was your diet matched to your metabolic type? I don't expect you to know the answer off-hand but after Owen's questions this would be my next most important question (along the lines of the Dr. Nick Gonzalez approach to managing chronic disease).

>> I conclude that taking my bowel limits of vitamin C (et al) was not effective in preventing the buildup of blockage in my coronary arteries.

Okay. Can we learn something from this? Was the vitamin C dosage too low? Was there one or more factors that prevented the Pauling/Rath therapy from working? Is yours an instance in which the Unified Theory can be considered falsified? Lots more details need to be known before any explanations could be forthcoming.

>> The folks at the hospital say that genetics (inherited characteristics) are the most important factor in the build up of coronary heart blockage.

I think the hospital work environment isn't the most conducive one for finding ways to dramatically improve health, thereby costing jobs to hospital workers. It could happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. I just wonder if they believe their own b.s. explanations.

>> Just so folks can know of my own experience.

Yes, thank you. The more details you can share the better we can help you, and hopefully gain a deeper understanding of the pauling/rath therapy, and help others too.

>> ... I take 2 grapefruits and 1 orange daily, which, unlike the powdered (or capsuled) ascorbic acid, is very delicious and goes down very well in my stomach.

Grapefruits and oranges aren't particulary high in vitamin C content. Even organic ones. Other foods are much, much higher. But if you or your caregiver want you to have a very low intake of vitamin C then you've found the correct diet for that.

There are three 'faces' of vitamin C. Each is based on the dose. The grapefruits and orange will only show you the first 'face', which is the prevention of out and out scurvy, like the sailors of old. If I had heart disease I would want the third 'face' of vitamin C.

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#9  Post by Rife » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:17 am

davsf, I am happy to hear that you have somewhat less chest pain thanks to the stent. You would do well to try and understand the root cause of your disease process, as stents are band-aid solutions, and prone to reclog.

Now, a few things worry me about your post.

If you are taking Lipitor, or any cholesterol drugs, do NOT take any grapefruit or its juice! That is a dangerous drug interaction with cholesterol medications that can be deadly.

I don't buy the cholesterol hypothesis for CVD, but believe that high cholesterol is an indicator of another process that is going on. (Infection or liver or thyroid trouble)

Don't dismiss the effect of inflammation/infection created by your teeth mercury filings and/or root canals!

Next, your 'vigorous exercise'. Are you sweating alot? If so are you really replenishing with a good vitamin, mineral, amino acid supplement? Electrolyte imbalances can trigger arrhythmia, heart attacks, and create other disturbances in the body. You may be doing more harm than good.

Have you checked your liver and thyroid function? Thyroid function is best checked with the underarm method first thing upon waking in the morning, NOT by a blood test. Have a look at Dr. Mark Starr's work.

Have you had other blood work done? Your 25-hydroxy vitamin D level tested? LP(a),sensitive- CRP, Fibrinogen, Homocysteine? Do you take any D3 or fish oils? Or do you have a good balance of Omega 3 intake in your diet? What exactly is your diet like, and when were you doing supplementation?

Do you eat wheat, sugar, corn, any corn syrup or by products? These have been shown to promote inflammation in CV patients. See Cardiologist Dr. William Davis' blog at heartscanblog.blogspot.com Diet is a keystone for health (or dis-ease).

I appreciate you sharing your experience, and I wish you good health and hope you can find the root of the problem.

***The above is not medical advice; for educational and experimental purposes only.***

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:07 pm

Rife, thank you for the reminder on the possible adverse statin interaction with grapefruit. I'll see if I can find the link as it is usually listed in the cautions/warnings in the (non-USA) drug ads.

I believe Ralph Lotz submitted this some time ago:


Furthermore, we found the following information on the Pfizer Canada web site:

"Scroll to page 7, Warnings. Note Lipitor potential for liver damage is increased by alcohol consumption. Also since Lipitor is metabolized by the Cytochrome P450 enzyme system, taking it with grapefruit juice which contains naringen, a Cytochrome P450 antagonist could amplify Lipitor's potential to cause myopathy. Myopathy is any disease or abnormal condition of striated muscle. This is brought about because lipitor reduces ubiquitone levels (page 9).

Note that the use of NIACIN may make the myopathy worse. Myopathy leads to congestive heart failure. (The antidote is 60-500 mg of coQ10 and 500 mg- 1500 mg of L-Carnitine daily). All this is missing from the U.S. version of the advertisement.
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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#11  Post by Ralph Lotz » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:03 am

Whilst you do ALA it bonds to Lysine so much that gastric juices cannot break the union and it is not absorbed.


This is true in obtaining ALA from foods, where ALA is bound to lysine. However, consuming ALA from foods has never been found to result in any measurable increase in blood levels of ALA because there is practically none in foods, even the "rich" sources.

Please furnish any studies indicating that the concomitant administration of lysine and ALA as supplements are antagonistic.
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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#12  Post by J.Lilinoe » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:03 pm

I think the title of this thread should be, "Blockage increases after 20 months on LIPITOR". Why is it that when things go wrong, people blame it on the supplement instead of the obvious drug culprit? :roll:

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#13  Post by scurvyencounters » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:59 am

Part of the problem is that bowel tolerance is not necessarily always a sensitive enough indicator of vitamin C needs. Cathcarts theory is a great place to start. Definitely. But what is at stake here is the body's oxidative load, which I suspect is not always fully connected to the bowel tolerance measurement. I have read that some people with constipation have simultaneous diarrhea, which could put a confusing spin on the bowel tolerance assessment.

My son's doctor gave him a 50 g IVC followed by a serum C lab test. The results were 265 units indicating a huge oxidative load. The doctor explained it was extraordinarily low for a cancer free patient. He then asked me if we had looked into mercury toxicity.

Lipitor may indeed be to blame for this persons problem. But why has the bowel tolerance assessment seemingly failed? Could it be this person may yet have need for vitamin C, possibly with much higher dose???

J.Lilinoe

Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#14  Post by J.Lilinoe » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:55 pm

But why has the bowel tolerance assessment seemingly failed?


MAYBE BECAUSE LIPITOR CAUSES EVERYTHING TO FAIL!

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Re: Blockage increase after 20 months Vit C regime

Post Number:#15  Post by scurvyencounters » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:18 am

This problem that I am hypothesizing with bowel tolerance is certainly not confined to patients with lipitor. Children with autism have diverse bowel tolerance. They are all under apparent oxidative stress, are they not? Yet some of the children have constant diarrhea and others have constant constipation. Those with constipation could probably benefit from vitamin C to loosen their bowels, but what about the others. Do they not need vitamin C also????? Why???? Or why not???

The point I am asking is whether some people may need additional vitamin C regardless of bowel tolerance factors. Has anyone ever tried to correlate serum vitamin C levels with bowel tolerance???


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