Folic acid and B12 not effective in secondary prevention

[Johnwen]

--could someone
please break down the following sentence:

I thought I clarified this in the sentence after this one which reads!

So homocysteine dosen't directly cause the breakage but contributes to the chemical reactions which can lead to higher pressure traumas of the arteries.

[w6nrw]

You are correct, johnwen. Thanks

[Ralph Lotz]

When all else fails, 6 grams daily of betaine (TMG) will lower homocysteine levels.

[godsilove]

[godsilove]

When all else fails, 6 grams daily of betaine (TMG) will lower homocysteine levels.

But will this lead to any clinical benefit?

[Johnwen]

But will this lead to any clinical benefit?

http://www.rxlist.com/cystadane-drug.htm

[godsilove]

But will this lead to any clinical benefit?

http://www.rxlist.com/cystadane-drug.htm

I mean in people without homocystinuria

[Johnwen]

I mean in people without homocystinuria

Probably do as much good as people without heart disease who take statins!

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten ... 70/12/1024

[ofonorow]

All fine in "theory", but where is the actual data supporting these hypotheses?
- What is the evidence that plaque is mostly formed as a response to physical stress (rather than plaque formation leading to physical stress on the artery walls)?

Common knowledge and rational thinking. Do you doubt that cardiovascular disease occurs mostly near the heart in highly predictable locations and arteries? You seek "evidence" that plaque doesn't form uniformly throughout the cardiovascular system, is that what you are asking for? Ask any medical examiner, and perhaps heart surgeon or cardiologist. Dr. George Willis in the early 1950s was a cardiologist. He observed post mortem that plaques always seemed to form in his patients near the heart, and he was probably the first to notice that plaques formed where the physical forces on the arterial walls were the greatest.

It is you my dear skeptic that could debunk this theory, not by asking for data in support (the white swan) but by finding data that plaques are equally likely to form anywhere (the black swan). So you have turned the issue around. Nice try.

What experiments did Pauling/Rath/Willis or anybody else do to test this hypothesis?

Again I refer you to the series of Willis papers on the series of experiments designed to test this specific hypothesis and publishe in the Canadian Journal of Medicine, See: vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs No one in Willis's time new of Lp(a). We have also discussed similar Pauling/Rath experiments on guinea pigs, but this time, measuring Lp(a) (apo(a)) Do I have to cite again?

- What is the evidence that it is a "lack" of collagen in the arteries of all patients with atherosclerosis?

Where is the evidence that there is a lack of collagen in frank scurvy? Yes, for a succinct explanation, read Pauling or view the video. Vitamin C is an important factor in the endogenous production of collagen. It is my understanding that it plays a role in "hydrolyzing" lysine and proline into the collagen helix. (Copper and vitamin B6 also play a role, but they are rarely the critical missing nutrient.) When vitamin C is missing, (in the animals which can no longer produce their own vitamin C, and must therefore get their entire supply form the diet) the body cannot form collagen. Pauling cites Japanese test tube experiments showing that vitamin C must be present. I can look them up if you care..

- What is the evidence that excessive amounts of vitamin C are necessary to have an optimal amount of collagen?

I think you are asking what is the optimal vitamin C intake, which is really what this forum has been trying to determine from anecdotal experience for years. We do know that 10 mgs daily can prevent most people from falling apart - dying from scurvy. I'll turn it around, what conventional or medical study can you cite that has ever tried to find the optimal amount of vitamin C for this or any other purpose?

[ofonorow]

[VanCanada]

- What is the evidence that it is a "lack" of collagen in the arteries of all patients with atherosclerosis?

Pauling explains the vitamin C/collagen relationship beautifully in this 1986 book. He includes diagrams too, which I found to be worth many words in themselves. He was a brilliant scientist and brilliant communicator. If you can read that book and still have these questions then I'm afraid you may be wasting your time on this forum, since if he can't explain it, it may be long time before anyone else can.

[BaronZemo]

Actually, sustained release arginine does lower BP in hypertensive individuals, but doesn't lower normal BP

In an ADMA + individual l-arginine will have no effect. If you read the article you posted you see that it says HEALTHY individuals with high Blood Pressure. This precludes individuals who have no responce to BP meds which presents as a problem. In a normal person with proper endothiel function L-Arginine will lower their BP.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19820234

I have high to borderline high bp and have tried arginine (not sustained release however) and it had no effect on bp...do you need sustained release and how much to get the effect?

[bbtri]

Actually, sustained release arginine does lower BP in hypertensive individuals, but doesn't lower normal BP

In an ADMA + individual l-arginine will have no effect. If you read the article you posted you see that it says HEALTHY individuals with high Blood Pressure. This precludes individuals who have no responce to BP meds which presents as a problem. In a normal person with proper endothiel function L-Arginine will lower their BP.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19820234

I have high to borderline high bp and have tried arginine (not sustained release however) and it had no effect on bp...do you need sustained release and how much to get the effect?

Sustained release has shown better results. In the study I linked to in my previous post, they used 1 gram twice a day. Do you also take Vit C, Vit D, fish oil, and Magnesium? That's what worked for me, along with exercise, but I had been exercising already.

[Johnwen]

If you haven't had your homocysteine levels checked you might want to give L-Citrulline a try for a couple of weeks. If you still get no responce your going to need to get a homocysteine level check.

[BaronZemo]

I have high to borderline high bp and have tried arginine (not sustained release however) and it had no effect on bp...do you need sustained release and how much to get the effect?

Sustained release has shown better results. In the study I linked to in my previous post, they used 1 gram twice a day. Do you also take Vit C, Vit D, fish oil, and Magnesium? That's what worked for me, along with exercise, but I had been exercising alreadyyes I take all of those and excersise, but don't take timed release arginine

I take all of those and excersise, but do not take timed released arginine