I didn't do well on supplements (yet) - Dr pushing Crestor

[ofonorow]

Okay, in any event, 15 g with no tolerance issues tells us that your previous level of 3 g was too low, thats all. Vitamin K2 sounds right - I do not have enough knowledge of the enzyme to recommend or not recommend it. Still maintain that vitamin C is the primary weapon.

[396driver]

A large thanks for all the advice

I will move forward taking the new dose quantity, and post any results, questions, or issues:

New regiment (please let me know if dosing seems incorrect):

C 5G per dose 3x daily (7G per dose has caused loose stool)
Lysine 2G per dose 3x daily
proline 500 mg per dose 3x daily

Krill oil 1200mg per dose 1x daily - morning
D3 5000IU per dose 1x daily - morning
E 400IU per dose 1x daily - morning
K-2 as MK7 90 mcg per dose 1x daily - morning

[Lemonaid]

Also don't forget a multivitamin/mineral.

[396driver]

Oh yes, thanks. I need to find a good one, and not sure which one to choose yet.

[Ralph Lotz]

Is there a preferred form of niacin such as regular B3, Niaspan, Slo-Niacin or others?

Regular, inexpensive niacin should work just fine. Although Hoffer approved of the flush-free inositol-hexaniacinate, there are no human studies that show it works and one or two that say it doesn't.

nattokinase or vitamin K2?

Keep the K2. Beside the fact that K2 prevents and reverses arterial calcification, digging through research shows 2 more reasons to take it:
1)Thrombin increases SVCT2 in endothelial cells. (More vitamin C gets through.)
2) The vitamin K Cycle creates potent antioxidant activity against lipid peroxidation that is completely abolished by coumadin/warfarin.

Nattokinase is a very powerful clot buster, but there are no human studies to prove that it is safe to use routinely, every day. It might be a good idea for all of us to carry it in our pockets in case of an acute MI or stroke?


Statin numerous side effects include brain fog and global amnesia. There is no proven benefit for use in women that outweighs the risks. Generally, the number needed to treat is 100 to reduce 1 heart attack. Given 100 people, 3 will have heart attacks without statins; with statins, the number is 2.
Lowering cholesterol also lowers life expectancy in those over 70.

Oh yes, thanks. I need to find a good one, and not sure which one to choose yet

I recommend LifeForce No Iron by Source Naturals. I have been taking it for over 20 years!

[396driver]

this is a the K2 I purchased: http://www.jarrow.com/product.php?prodid=241

It say its derived from Natto; I wonder how it differ from Nattokinase?

[Ralph Lotz]

K2 is a vitamin, nattokinase is an enzyme.

[ascorbicjoe]

My recommendation would be to find your bowel tolerance before you give up on supplements. I did not see where you took VC to tolerance levels. 3 grams may not be enough. I know I can take up to 20g daily without much trouble. Linux Pauling took about 20g daily, I believe.

[396driver]

My recommendation would be to find your bowel tolerance before you give up on supplements. I did not see where you took VC to tolerance levels. 3 grams may not be enough. I know I can take up to 20g daily without much trouble. Linux Pauling took about 20g daily, I believe.

I'm still working towards bowel tolerance, but I did post on tuesday what number of C grams i'm at currently. i might end up somewhere between 15 an 20 G per day divide by 3 doses, but still working the issue.

I've been reading the various documents on titrating but I am a little confused. Since the C only last to about an hour or less in the body, is it better to flood the body in large quantities, or keep the body maintained consistently with small amounts on the hour? Is bowel tolerance what happens after a single large dose, or is bowel tolerance the combined amount of C that at some point in the day gives a moment of loose stool? In the morning I took 7 grams and had loose stool, but at lunch I took 6 and I was fine. It seems at this point in my head that it is better to flood the system with C fewer times per day, but not quite sure. I feel somewhat obtuse on this subject, but I'm still reading; I plan to invest in a few books soon - of course one of them will be Practicing Medicine without a License.

[396driver]

K2 is a vitamin, nattokinase is an enzyme.

Thanks, I think I may have purchased the wrong K2; the market called sprouts lets you return supplements even if opened. I just get another that is assuredly a vitamin.

[Ralph Lotz]

I may have purchased the wrong K2

The Jarrow product is the right stuff.
http://www.jarrow.com/product.php?prodid=241

[Ralph Lotz]

I've been reading the various documents on titrating but I am a little confused. Since the C only last to about an hour or less in the body, is it better to flood the body in large quantities, or keep the body maintained consistently with small amounts on the hour? Is bowel tolerance what happens after a single large dose, or is bowel tolerance the combined amount of C that at some point in the day gives a moment of loose stool?

We have all had different experiences trying to incorporate Cathcart's bowel tolerance principles into our regimens.
Hickey says smaller doses taken more frequently are more effective at maintaining a steady state of dynamic flow than one or two large doses.

The half life of vitamin C in the blood is 30 minutes. A steady state of dynamic flow can be maintained with doses spaced between 3 and 4 hours apart.

I have been able to tolerate 4-5,000 mg every 4 hours from 0700 through 2200. Dose at 0700 is 2 scoops of Ascorsine-9. Doses at 1100,1500 and 1800 are 4-5,000 mg of sodium ascorbate . Dose at 2200 is 4-5,000 mg of sodium ascorbate along with Lypospheric-C, 1 packet of 1,000 mg. Total for day 21-26 grams.

Each dose consists of 1 teaspoon of Thompson or Trader Joe's ascorbic acid powder with 1/2teaspoon of baking soda in 3 ounces of water consumed after fizzing stops. Ratio is 2 parts ascorbic acid to 1 part baking soda to make it easy.

Here is Dynamic Flow:A New Model for Ascorbate
D.S. Hickey, Ph.D.;1 H.J. Roberts, Ph.D.; R.F. Cathcart, M.D.2,

http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2 ... 4-p237.pdf

This is the best paper on the subject. A must have book is Ascorbate, The Science of Vitamin C by Hickey and Roberts from lulu.com.

[ofonorow]

I've been reading the various documents on titrating but I am a little confused. Since the C only last to about an hour or less in the body, is it better to flood the body in large quantities, or keep the body maintained consistently with small amounts on the hour? Is bowel tolerance what happens after a single large dose, or is bowel tolerance the combined amount of C that at some point in the day gives a moment of loose stool? In the morning I took 7 grams and had loose stool, but at lunch I took 6 and I was fine. It seems at this point in my head that it is better to flood the system with C fewer times per day, but not quite sure. I feel somewhat obtuse on this subject, but I'm still reading; I plan to invest in a few books soon - of course one of them will be Practicing Medicine without a License.

I think Ralph already answered this but to clarify 2 points. Pauling himself took 9000 mg of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) twice per day. Taking less more frequently may be more "optimum" but it is not as convenient. The Dynamic Flow theory and timing Ralph mentioned (at least 500 mg) would keep blood levels constant.

There does seem to be two kinds of bowel tolerances, as we have discussed in the Bowel Tolerance Forum. There is obviously a maximum one-time dose, as that which is not absorbed and makes the rectum causes diarrhea, or so the theory goes. This seems to be largely based on your genetic capacity to absorb vitamin C in the intestines.

But there is also an overall tolerance related to the dosage throughout the day. Presumably the cells become saturated, no more can be absorbed, and oh oh. When you know your one-time maximum, then it becomes easier to titrate throughout the day. I am not honestly sure if the "one-time" maximum changes under stress, (others please chime in) possibly because my 1-time is so high.

[Johnwen]

On the niacin. I would reccomend he go ahead and let his dr. write a script for Niaspan that way at least he'll feel he is controlling his outcome and will take his (dr.) mind off statins. As with all types of Niacin taking it right before jumping into bed is the best way to take it, you'll sleep thru most of the flush. Otherwise as with most people they tend to quit taking it because it makes them, "feel funny" (flush). That way he'll stay on good graces with his Dr. and he'll do schduled blood tests and he'll be able to monitor his progress as well as doing his body right.
Taking a large dose of V-C all at once will induce a reaction in the gut based on food consumed and acid levels in the stomach and the end result will be an expulsion or a discomfort. This can be confused as Bowel tolerance which it is not. This is just agitation of the digestive tract. The same action as laxitives. Spacing it out over the day is more gentle on the digestive system and allows the body to absorb more of what you pay for. 1 to 2 grams every two or three hours will allow the body to utilize the VC more efficently and when you reach BT you'll know it. It let's you know it's coming and when it does you'll really want to back down on your intake. It's not the same as an agitation reaction which is a flash bang done type reaction. It's really amazing how backing down just 2 grams per day puts the brakes on this. But it does.
From my own personal experience if I miss a dose about and hour after when I should have taken it. I feel like something is missing or I just don't feel right. Take a VC and everthing is back to normal. Yes! I'm addicted and feel good about it.

[396driver]

thanks for all the inputs; I'm getting a nice handle on this VC titrating concept.

I like the idea provided about Niaspan; it would give my doctor his control factor, and get me all the testing I need (as pointed out); it's genius. Unless it's not good for me. An issue is that I won't know if lower cholesterol was the result of an increased C intake or the Niaspan or both. But I do like the idea. Some of the side effects are from minor to severe, but the severe ones are a bit worrisome.
http://www.drugs.com/sfx/niaspan-side-effects.html