Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Any adverse effects of replacement vitamin C will be discuseed here. Topics include kidney stones, gall stones, oxidation, etc.
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momom

Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#1  Post by momom » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:32 pm

I'm looking for info regarding high doses of vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies/imbalances. I don't want to start a new thread on this topic if one has already been started so if this has already been discussed could somebody tell me where to find it on the forum? If this is a new topic I would appreciate thoughts and ideas on this topic.
Thanks

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#2  Post by davea0511 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:53 am

momom wrote:I'm looking for info regarding high doses of vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies/imbalances. I don't want to start a new thread on this topic if one has already been started so if this has already been discussed could somebody tell me where to find it on the forum? If this is a new topic I would appreciate thoughts and ideas on this topic.
Thanks

Too many posts on these subjects to varying degrees to even start listing them. Try a search: search.php

Best of luck!
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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#3  Post by momom » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:54 am

I tried using the "search" at the bottom of the forum page and got nothing for "vitamin c mineral deficiency" and "vitamin c mineral imbalance". What would you suggest for searching for these things?

Thanks

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#4  Post by gofanu » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:24 pm

Be more specific as to what you want to know.
Routine use or "medicinal"?
High dose Vitamin C does not cause deficiencies in general, although some have noticed possible minor effects at very high > 20gm/day.
High dose, esp. IVC, might call for some attention to serum minerals..
Vitamin C deficiency frequently comes with lots of other deficiencies. Some of these may be lessened or circumvented by lots of C.
Some other vitamins may lessen the need for C, or increase its effectiveness.

FRM

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:54 am

One thought experiment can usually simplify matters.

Think about the majority of mammals, or almost all species for that matter, that produce endogenous vitamin C, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Life on earth produces, on average, correcting for body weight, between 3000 and 13,000 mg of vitamin C (ascorbate) daily. We argue that the "correct" and balanced blood levels are those organisms saturated with ascorbate - as are all animal blood. This is the natural state of affairs, and only a few species do not make ascorbate - humans, high level primates, guinea pig and fruit bat. For these few species, the vitamin must be obtained from external sources - food. To achieve blood levels of ALL other species, a great deal must be ingested.

One argument that we are "wrong" while the rest of the animal kingdom is "right" about the amount of vitamin C naturally in the blood, is all the illness we (and guinea pigs and gorillas) suffer that the rest of the animals do not. I should compile this list, because it is quite impressive. Taking "replacement" vitamin C, that brings our blood levels up to what we would probably have were our GULO gene not broke, seems to correct a myriad of illness, first and foremost - cardiovascular disease.
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momom

Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#6  Post by momom » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:49 am

Thanks responding. I'm still learning about isolated nutrients. I'm having a hard time getting my brain around taking excess of one and not needing to take another.

I've always been a strong supporter of whole food nutrition, but given our modern lifestyles and food raising practices it seems we can't get all we need from whole food. One example, if the cabbage we get doesn't have what it's supposed to because the farmer used what he wasn't supposed to (round-up, etc) and didn't do what he was supposed to - rotate crops, fallow years for soil, the sauerkraut we make won't have the vitamin c our bodies need and we may end up with more problems than we had before. Good motive for organic farming... yes I know, even organic today lacks what organic had 100 years ago.

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#7  Post by majkinetor » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:22 pm

Owen wrote:Think about the majority of mammals, or almost all species for that matter, that produce endogenous vitamin C, 24 hours a day, seven days a week

Unfortunately, your deduction is wrong. Mineral changes can and will happen with some/all people regarding vitamin C megadoses. Is it beneficial or not depends on context and your state. If you have too much copper for instance, reduction of copper status by C is beneficial. If not, and you additionally take Zinc 50mg++ for long time (usual combination) you may produce undesirable effects (anemia, polyneuropathy, even stroke).

We differ from animals by the location and dosage of the C input. Its not the same if liver/kidney produce it or animals in jungle have continuous low flow of vit C during entire day.

For instance, it is thought that copper reduction with C alone is happening via changes in enterocites, clearly something that is not affecting vitamin c producing animals. To make matters worse, timing makes a difference - taking C during the meal or before it, reduces copper enzymes (SOD and friends) but if you take it 2 hours after, it will improve them (this is based on animal studies so it might not be relevant for humans, however, slight copper reduction in primates and humans is found in several studies).

Its not in vain that perque institute uses minerals in combination with ascorbate titration:

See:
How to do an Ascorbate (Vitamin C) Calibration Protocol (“C Flush”) to determine individual,functional need for ascorbate

I personally think that people should go hard on Mg, and be careful about Zinc.

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:58 am

Mineral changes can and will happen with some/all people regarding vitamin C megadoses.


So say you, and many others over the Internet, without much evidence. Vitamin C is the second most studied substance in the history of science (according to Pauling in 1971). If Pauling didn't spot the problem, I doubt very much whether it really exists.

He did point out vitamin C's ability to regulate minerals in the blood - to lower high levels, and raise low levels.

I will concede that the animal model isn't perfect - because we have to ingest our vitamin C to keep blood levels as high as the animals, so there may be factors related to eating/diet. For example, vitamin C in the diet may affect iron levels (but I know in my own case, I take a lot of vitamin C and red meat, and my iron levels are low.)

The point is that to worry about these things, trying to balance nutrients is a little silly anyway. We are all different. Following Linus Pauling's regimen in HTLLAFB will make the issue moot in probably 90% of the population - no matter what you eat.

But if you are proposing some "effect" caused by vitamin C - after digestion - then you have to explain why the same effect doesn't occur in all animals.
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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#9  Post by majkinetor » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:13 am

So say you, and many others over the Internet, without much evidence. Vitamin C is the second most studied substance in the history of science (according to Pauling in 1971). If Pauling didn't spot the problem, I doubt very much whether it really exists.

There is much evidence. This is even not controversial, that C will reduce copper status. One speculated reason is improval of iron status which competes with copper. Like I said, with C alone its not that problematic.
Pauling was not God, everybody can miss something. Furthermore, there is very low amount of oral C megadose studies and this thing is further problematic because people are usually copper sufficient ore even overdosed because of tap water. That clearly doesn't mean that everybody will be OK, particularly because such imbalance may be very hard to spot.

Following Linus Pauling's regimen in HTLLAFB will make the issue moot in probably 90% of the population - no matter what you eat

Probably even less, but people still need to know this, because you may not have substantial copper input for various reasons - you don't drink tap water, you take too much zinc/iron, you don't eat liver/chocolate etc. Once you get copper deficiency you wont be interested in numbers because it looks like some symptoms might be irreversible.

But if you are proposing some "effect" caused by vitamin C - after digestion - then you have to explain why the same effect doesn't occur in all animals.

No, I clearly stated that its in a domain of gastroenterology.

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#10  Post by Jacquie » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:39 pm

majkinetor wrote:There is much evidence. This is even not controversial, that C will reduce copper status.

I found a bunch of studies about this, but the results are all over the board. Please link or cite the non-controversial evidence you're referring to.

In fact, several of those studies are about post-absorption mechanisms only. This line of research does not seem to be settled ground, yet.

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#11  Post by majkinetor » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:21 pm

I have actually read all those studies full and more, in them are references to practically everything you need and you will see its almost consistent finding, that ascorbate reduces copper in specific context.

The chicken study is why I said that it looks like time of C ingestion might also be important.

Actually, I think it is what happened to me now, thats why I know. Unfortunately there is no way at the moment for me to be sure unless paying lots of money for extensive testing.

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Re: Vitamin C and other vitamin or mineral deficiencies

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:44 am

To Jacquie's point,
Intake of high dietary iron (10 times control) increased hepatic iron stores and produced a reciprocal decrease in hepatic copper. Even though splenic iron increased, no significant change in copper resulted.


Pharmacologic doses (25 mg per 100 g BW per day) of vitamin C resulted in two-to-three-fold decreases in liver copper, when compared with those receiving normal (0.5 mg per 100 g BW per day) intakes. Under conditions of vitamin C deficiency, serum copper and ceruloplasmin were elevated along with liver copper.


By the way, are there any studies in guinea pigs that just evaluated copper levels? The finding seems to be that iron and copper "compete".
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