manipulating bowel tolerance

This forum will focus on the interesting topic of titrating oral vitamin C intake to so-called bowel tolerance, the point just prior to the onset of diarrhea

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c_buzzin

manipulating bowel tolerance

Post Number:#1  Post by c_buzzin » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:30 pm

I usually hit the limit around 3 heaping 1/4 tsp measuring (1 gram) scoops of ascorbic acid powder with major gas and intestinal rumbles, so I keep things quiet by going with a couple ever 4 hours or so. I normally can get 10 "heaping grams" down if spacing out throughout a long day. More than that, I become a social outcast around my family.

I have the (somewhat loose) understanding that the problem comes when the ascorbic acid passes into the large intestine and there is more than the body can absorb; it is then passed into the colon in the form of diarrhea (and much discomfort, etc.).

Being somewhat of an experimenter, I've tried to think of ways to slow that process down a bit - reduce the urgency, if you know what I mean. So -- after finding that it is a standard among folks who have IBS (irritable bowel syndrome), I started using a generic form of Loperamide HCl - 2mg (that's Imodium AD) when I decide to really dose up. It cuts down on the noise and the urgency -- and, I presume, it slows the process down until the body can absorb more of the ascorbic acid out of the gut. I've found that this works only to a point -- then, all hell breaks loose (for me, that was around 50 scoops throughout the day when I finally got tired of a cold that I couldn't seem to shake).

Thoughts?
Last edited by c_buzzin on Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Quick Comment

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:40 am

I haven't looked up the product, but this did trigger a memory. We had an HT patient once who did not decrease Angina. Turns out he was taking his HT (Vitamin C) with Fiber, because it seemed to increase his tolerance.

We suggested not taking it with Fiber - since these products have a tendency to bind with vitamins and minerals and exit the body - and his tolerance went way down. And his Angina then stopped!

So be careful. Fiber has excellent properties for health, especially of the colon, and should be taken daily. However, when Fiber is taken with lots of C/lysine, you may not be absorbing the high amounts that you think you are.
Owen R. Fonorow
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c_buzzin

manipulating bowel tolerance

Post Number:#3  Post by c_buzzin » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:58 am

Actually, Loperamide HCl is not fiber -- it is a drug. I've included a description of how it works from another site:

Action: Slows intestinal motility, affects water and electrolyte movement through intestine, inhibits peristalsis, reduces daily fecal volume, increases viscosity and bulk density of stool, diminishes loss of fluid and electrolytes.

DRUG CLASS AND MECHANISM: Loperamide is a medication that is used for the relief of acute diarrhea and the management of chronic diarrhea in patients with inflammatory bowel disease (Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis). The effectiveness of loperamide is comparable to another anti-diarrheal, diphenoxylate (Lomotil). Loperamide reduces diarrhea by slowing the forward propulsion of intestinal contents by the intestinal muscles. Although loperamide is related chemically to narcotics such as morphine, it does not have any of the narcotics pain- relieving effects even at high doses. Loperamide was approved by the FDA in 1976.


Of course, anyone considering such an approach should do their research first.

For lowest cost, I buy it at Sam's in a bottle of 350 caplets.

Also - I only take it when the rumblings begin - it then takes about 20-30 minutes to quiet the rumblings.

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Re: manipulating bowel tolerance

Post Number:#4  Post by ascorbicjoe » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:08 am

c_buzzin wrote: I usually hit the limit around 3 heaping 1/4 tsp measuring (1 gram) scoops of ascorbic acid powder


I would double check your measurements. One level tsp of AA powder/crystals is usually 4 grams, so each 1/4 tsp is a gram. Heaping could mean a lot on such a small measure. You may be taking 5-6 grams at a time. That is about the limit I have. However, when I feel a cold or something, I will not feel the side effects of 6 grams. I would suggest not taking more than 4 grams at a time, but take it 3-5 times a day. I can take 18 grams a day without a hitch, but at the 6 grams a dose level my body gets overloaded. Making the doses smaller, but more frequent helps with the gas.

You should see bowel tolerance to be much like filling a funnel. If, you fill it at a the proper rate you will never encounter an empty funnel, nor overfill and make a mess. When you overfilll with V-C, gas and loose stools (the mess) occurs. When you are sick the hole in the funnel widens and you have to increase the filling of the funnel or you run dry. Running dry of C means your cold or flu gets worse and critical areas like your arteries are left starving for ascorbic acid. The funnel has a capacity that allows your filling to be less than perfect, but clear extreme limits exist. With AA, too much fills your blood to the point that the bowel gets into trouble, while having too little eliminates any benefits you may receive for you plain run out of it.

I had recently put down a cold in 24hrs with 50 grams of V-C, most of that time feeling very minimal symptoms. I took extra (beyond my normal 18-20 grams a day) at the moment I noticed any symptom coming back. That made a believer of me. NO BT problems with 50 grams, it was the first time I had experienced such a high level.

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Glad you are a believer

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:44 am

Glad you are now a C believer. Next step is vitamin D3.

It has taken me over 50 years to fully understand the importance of vitamin D3 - usually provided by sun shine. :oops: I won't know for certaiin, maybe for years, possibly by the rest of this winter, but I now believe that high C - in conjunction with high D3 in winter months - is needed in order to provide complete protection (prevention) from the flu/ cold viruses.
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Re: Glad you are a believer

Post Number:#6  Post by ascorbicjoe » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:02 pm

ofonorow wrote:Glad you are now a C believer. Next step is vitamin D3.


I was a believer before about feeling better and catching fewer of the bugs my kids brought home from school, but I never had a good chance to try BT against a real cold. Taking 50 grams with zero side effects, only benefits was awesome and inspiring. I do not fear flu anymore. I do keep a store of liposomal ascorbic acid for when real high levels may be needed. I figure I can go to BT and then take liposomal C to kick my levels to the ultimate.

As for Vitiamin D, I have believed that for awhile. After I learned about C, I found an article about how the latitude on the planet correlated with outbreaks of influenza! I believe it was a paper from UW-Madison. My recent research has turned up that influenza is linked to Schizophrenia when the mother catches flu during pregnancy. The common cold is linked to both Alzheimer's and cancer. So, with plenty of vitamins C and D we woud have little heart disease and much less of many other diseases. I am starting to believe that viruses are really the cause of cancer and many other diseases. Think about it a life form rewrites your DNA and you survive, all without any long term damage? I do not think so. Regarding V-D, how much is needed for the basic defense over winter. I take about 1000 IUs daily with my cod liver oil and other V-D supplements. What is the ideal amount without hitting toxic levels? How about for children? I know they say 40,000 IU long term would be too much, yet a day sunbathing during summer will provide over 50,000 IUs. Would, say, 5000 IUs be a good place to be during the winter? I do not think supplementing that much during the summer would be wise, but autumn through spring is another matter.

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Vitamin D3 Dosage

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:24 am

What is the ideal amount without hitting toxic levels? How about for children? I know they say 40,000 IU long term would be too much, yet a day sunbathing during summer will provide over 50,000 IUs. Would, say, 5000 IUs be a good place to be during the winter? I do not think supplementing that much during the summer would be wise, but autumn through spring is another matter.


This article goes a long way in answering this question


http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrit ... racle.html

Near the end is an addendum, which adds a caution that certain individuals require very small amounts, but they also point out that our ability to convert cholesterol to vitamin D3 diminishes as we age (along with almost everything else.) And there is the issue, as you point out, of the massive amounts that are produced on exposed skin by the sunshine without any ill effects. (Tanning may be an evolutionary addaption which reduces this massive vitamin D3 production.)

1000 iu daily vitamin D3 is probably a minimum, and 4000-5000 iu is probably the right 'RDA' in winter (which is what, 10 times the real RDA?). If I feel something coming on I'll go to at least 10,000 iu vitamin D3 spread throughout the day. (I've also ordered a UV/B Lamp (meant for reptiles) which I plan to put over my computer chair for the winter :-)
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levingo

Post Number:#8  Post by levingo » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:57 pm

Don't think there is any need to spread the D in smaller doses as it is fat soluable and stays in the body and though I have no facts to back me am guessing that if taken with small amount of fatty food (toast and butter anyone?) absorbtion of fairly large amount should be no problem. I take about 1800 iu per day. (Be sure to avoid D2 and only take D3 though!)

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Post Number:#9  Post by Dolev » Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:52 pm

Multiple sclerosis is also directly correlated with latitude. More sun and D, less disease.
Dolev

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an observation

Post Number:#10  Post by Seymore Spectacles » Mon May 28, 2007 8:55 pm

I just wanted to share an observation and possible tool that may enable us to use higher levels of vitamin C. If my logic is wrong-headed, please let me know.

I understand why taking fiber with vitamin C (and other nutrients) is undesirable. But, what I have found is that if I take a fiber supplement (and eat a fiber-rich diet) apart from my vitamin C ... it ultimately helps me to be able to avoid loose stools.

Generally speaking, if I eat low-fiber foods and I supplement ... I tend to get diarrhea. If I don't take supplements and eat a low-fiber meal-plan ... I don't have that problem. But, as stated before, if I take a fiber supplement and use higher dosages of C and other nutrients ... I'm fine.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

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Interesting

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Tue May 29, 2007 7:45 am

This is an interesting observation. When do you take the fiber supplement visa vis vitamin C?
Owen R. Fonorow
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reply for Owen

Post Number:#12  Post by Seymore Spectacles » Tue May 29, 2007 10:12 am

Owen,

I usually try to take my fiber in-between meals/supplements. Usually, that leads me to take it in the late afternoon.

Typical Work Day:

+ Coffee
+ Breakfast with supplements (8:00 AM)
+ Pauling Cocktail (10:00 AM)
+ IP-6 (11:30)
+ Lunch (1:30)
+ Pauling Cocktail (3:30)
+ Coffee + Fiber (5:00)
+ Dinner with supplements (7:30)
+ Bedtime (Vitamin C and a few other supplements)

As you can see, I try to sandwich my fiber supplement apart from any substantive nutrition. An interesting side-note is that the fiber doesn't appear to blunt the energizing effect of the coffee.

orbitc

Post Number:#13  Post by orbitc » Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 am

That is interesting, what brand of fiber do you take Seymore?

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brand of fiber

Post Number:#14  Post by Seymore Spectacles » Wed May 30, 2007 10:32 am

Orbitc,

For the sake of convenience, I take my fiber in a capsule form. I don't have a hard time swallowing large amounts of capsules so this works out well for me - especially since I take these at work. But, I suspect that a powdered fiber supplement would work as well.

The product I use is manufactured by Now Foods. The form of fiber is plain old psyllium husks (similar to what's found in Metamucil). I chose this brand because it offers the largest size (500 capsules per bottle) for the cheapest price ... it's much cheaper when purchased online. Also, Now Foods has a pretty solid reputation for producing quality products.

http://www.nowfoods.com/index.php?actio ... em_id=3458

Each capsule contains about 500mg of psyllium husks of which about 400mg is actual fiber. I usually take about 25 capsules (equaling about 10 grams of dietary fiber) on most days.


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