Bowel tolerance, then kidney tolerance

This forum will focus on the interesting topic of titrating oral vitamin C intake to so-called bowel tolerance, the point just prior to the onset of diarrhea

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Bowel tolerance, then kidney tolerance

Post Number:#1  Post by Steve Brown » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am

After several years of taking 250 milligrams of ascorbic acid daily, about a month ago I increased my daily dose to a few grams per day. After a few days I noticed improvements in how I feel and in my general state of well being. However I also experienced the laxative effect, so I reduced my dose to the amount that did not produce the laxative effect, between one and two grams per day, taken in divided doses with meals. After about three weeks, the diuretic effect manifested itself: increased thirst and frequent urination. Apparently this occurred once my body reached the saturation level of vitamin C, and the excess was being excreted by my kidneys. To prevent the diuretic effect, I found it necessary to reduce my daily dose to about one gram, taken in the morning with breakfast. At this dose I am comfortable and in good health.

Has anyone else found it necessary to reduce the dose of vitamin C to prevent the diuretic effect? It alarmed me when it occurred, because it seemed that water was going right through me, and I feared loss of electrolytes and essential minerals.

I am also taking 400 IU of vitamin E as mixed tocopherols, and about 50 mg of alpha lipoic acid daily. Those two appear to work very synergistically with vitamin C, and I think at one gram of vitamin C per day, I may be at or near my optimal dose. Taking several grams of vitamin C per day may be beneficial for some people, but in my case it would clearly be too much. I think the human being has evolved over the past 25 million years to utilize vitamin C very efficiently, and when he or she is in good health, the optimal daily dose may be closer to one gram than to several grams. Of course, the optimal dose may vary considerably among individuals.

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Interesting Report

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:42 am

Thank you for this. It reminds me a little of my father, who could only tolerate around 200 mg of vitamin C per day and never caught a cold or got sick. (He did die in his sixties of cardiovascular disease however.)

Then there are people who can tolerate 30,000+ mg daily with no apparent ill effect.

I don't have Thomas Levy's book STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER handy to reference at the moment, but he makes the case near the end that vitamin C is a strong diuretic, as does Dr. Cathcart, if memory serves. (I'll look for these quotes and edit this post later.)

Now 1000 to 2000 mg of vitamin C is probably the right amount for you, but if you wanted to consume more to prevent CVD, then I would think drinking more water is a very good idea.
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Post Number:#3  Post by Cis4me » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:48 pm

Frequent urination is a "danger" often cited by the various medical professions it seems.

For me, the diuretic effect seems to only last a couple of hours after I have some C and only if I am already pretty close to bowel tolerence to begin with, and even then it is usually due to doses every few minutes when I am sick.

It is entirely possible you just don't need nearly as much as you used to. I have experienced that this summer where my tolerance is now only about 7-10 grams compared to probably 12-18 grams or so before. I have had a few occations this summer where I would take more when I could sense my tolerence had roughly doubled. Everytime it has happened, someone I work with or hang around either get sick or I hear about their relatives/grandkids etc are sick a day or so later. I've also come to realize that the number of doses per day is probably more important than the total amount, although it seems mixing it with aloe vera gel is a good option where multiple times per day is not practical, at least going by what I have read and tried on myself.

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Post Number:#4  Post by Steve Brown » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:48 pm

Cis4me, I read that drinking excessive quantities of water is toxic because it flushes essential electrolytes from the body. That is why I am cautious about taking so much vitamin C as to have a diuretic effect, because it increases the amount of water ingested and excreted.

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Post Number:#5  Post by orbitc » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:30 pm

Also, it depends on the person but I find if you take vitamin C as a powder mixed in a liquid, then the body can handle more, the bowel tolerance and stomach is less upset. I think in many ways this is because the body never needs exactly 10 grams of vitamin C, it may need 9.87 grams, but you can't do this with a pill but with liquid you can sense it. If you are very sensitive to vitamin C, this might work for getting the right amount, however, I have no idea how it works with a diruetic effect, I take at least 10 grams a day with no noticable diuretic effect (though I drink a lot of water so frequent urination is fairly noramal for me).

I also agree yes too much water is toxic and people have fainted due to lack of electrolytes, but it is very difficult to reach this state, and most people should be drinking more water instead of less. But in your case if a little C creates a diuretic effect then by all means be cautious about water and C.

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Shouldn't we be careful with words?

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:56 am

I read that drinking excessive quantities of water is toxic


Somehow, even if some harm can come from drinking too much water, classifying it with a word used to describe radioactive waste or harmful chemicals, does not help clarify the problem with water. I don't care how much water you dump on a city, you are not going to create a Love Canal, a situation where humans can't return for many years.

Anyway, Pauling recommend drinking lots of water, and I know that advice comes from his personal experience with kidney disease. The kidney has to work harder when the body is dehydrated. Drinking plenty of water descreases the load on the kidney.
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Post Number:#7  Post by Steve Brown » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:15 pm

ofonorow, by "toxic" I meant that drinking too much water can be harmful. I did not mean that water is toxic. I drink plenty of water, to avoid becoming dehydrated.

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I'm not worried

Post Number:#8  Post by Cis4me » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:07 pm

Here is a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for water. I'm still laughing over the fact that such a thing exists for water. :)

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/w0600.htm

According to that link, the LD50 (dose needed to kill 50% of the test subjects) is 90 ml/kg for the rat. That works out to be about 6.3 liters (1.7 gallons) for the proverbial 70kg average adult. I didn't see anything that talked about over what time period. My roughly 2 quarts of water per day divided up throughout the day hasn't killed me yet if that is any indication.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LD50

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Post Number:#9  Post by Steve Brown » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:36 pm

Cis4me, thanks for the interesting link about water. I remember a story in the news a few months ago about a woman who died after drinking a few gallons of water in a contest sponsored by a radio station. Of all the dumb things...

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BOWEL TOLERANCE FACTORS ?

Post Number:#10  Post by antioxidant_addict » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:05 am

Interesting stuff. The bowel tolerance thing does make me suspicious as to how people are interpreting this. Let's face it, Its hardly a pleasant process we're talking her is it? Here's some of my thoughs and opinions on the subject from 4 years of mega dosing....

After discovering that taking more than my usual 1gram a day would benefit me in many ways, I gradually increased the amounts week by week, month by month. I take now around 15-25k a day depending on how much exercise and how much stress I'm under. I also supplement on the other main anti-oxidants.

MY USUAL ROUTINE
I always start the day with around 8000mg with a glass of water to kick start my digestion of a morning. After a high fibre Bran breakfast with 2 eggs 15 mins after, I will have been "on" twice within 1 hour of so just before I go to work. My lower intestine will be completely clear of digested food, and my energy levels are high afterwards. I rarely get constipated. If I do, its because my hydration levels were not high enough, especially after an hour in the gym. Lack of a high bran breakfast for even 2 days can sometimes make me "itch" as well. Sorry for sharing that info you...

FOOD AND WATER
Its worth bearing in mind that a yeast/flora problem in the intestines could make you senstive to C ? Just a theory. Also, you may me allergic to milk or gluten? I'd recommend getting an allergy test. Also, if you've been on any anti-biotics or prescribed meds, this could cause problems. Also, people think they're eating well but the diet leaves alot to desired. I've found that most people don't understand what a balanced diet is!
Years of Junk food with lots of refined carbs including white bread can ruin your digestive health. I'd even go so far as to recommend colonic irrigation and total de-tox food plan for a week. Doing this can really improve your digestive ability to absorb way more C than 3-4000mgs. You my have IBS ( irritable bowel syndrome) and not even know it. WATER TIP : Drink 2 litres of mineral water every day. I've seen programmes where C.I. was performed and within a week they'd lost nearly a stone (7 kilos). The amount of food trapped inside millions of people is unbelievable.

LETHARGY AND C ?
Sometimes I do feel queezy when I take 8-10grams at once, but its because my body now loves Vitamin C and I'm sure it kick-starts peristalsis in the morning. The food starts to move very quickly, and I can be on the toilet within minutes. I generally have no problem unless I feel I'm under attack from a virus and I'll beef up my amounts until the symptoms go away.

In a word ; Bowel tolerance. I get out AA powder as this has a turbo affect on the immune system in the "I think I may have caught Flu" scenario.
I've followed the foundation's cold flu cure and it works every time. You MUST get it started within 6 hours I'd say else you lower the chance of nipping it in the bud so to speak. Any sort of Nausea you get from taking more than 2-3000mgs can simply be the affect of the C pushing food through the small and large intestine at a faster rate than you're used to.
Note that unless you've a life long habit of eating a decent amount of fibre so that you go on the toilet twice a day already, going on the toilet 3-4 times a day could be interpreted as a problem. Trust me it isn't.

ARE YOU SURE ITS "UPSET STOMACH"?
It's worth bearing in mind that an "upset stomach" or when I hear people speaking Diarrhoea/and stomach cramps, people simply might be interpreting looser stools and not be used to the ease of which Vitamin C helps move the stools through the Colon. Simply put, the higher the fibre in your diet, the faster the food moves through the lower intestine. People may have increased their fibre intake AND vitamin C. The effect of which is a turbo boost to the entire system and lots of wind with associated cramps may follow. The embaressment caused by wind or the pain of lodged food being forced off ( with the associated toxins) can scare the Vit C convert to conclude "this C is a bad idea". Nausea can happen due to toxin release. Thankfully the Vitamin C cn neutralise that effect.
If fibre is chronically low, many people can have 2-6 kg of undigested rotting food in the small and large intestine! So its easy to conclude that when the Vit C comes along and starts forcibly di-toxifiying your entire system, your digestive system is shocked into doing something it's not used to. Result? Loose/very stools and/or explosive diarrhoea. Be aware that loose stools are not a bad thin. IT shows that the digested food if running through Large Intestine (Colon) at a rapid rate. THIS IS WHAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING.

Taking more Vit C doesn't mean that you're going to get explosive diarrhoea! My girlfriend is a Staff Nurse, and hears it all. She knows of people who don't go on the toilet for a week! If not more! Reason? Their diets are very very poor. They are generally overweight too due to malnutrition and low fibre. Many people struggle to go once a day? How many people (especially men) spend 30 minutes in the toilet reading a newspaper?. If you're eating "CLEAN AND HEALTHY" and taking 2-4000mgs+ of C , you really should be on and off the toilet within 2 minutes and feel much much better afterwards. Upset stomach can simply mean that "I'm farting alot". People can associate this with indigestion and potential run-to-the-toilet explosive diarrhoea. If people are gradually increasing their C through the day, any sort of noise, grumbling with occasional trapped wind, can be easily misinterpreted. The result? "Oh I'd better not take as much".

SORRY TO GO ON
My message is find out and test why the C levels are so low to cause explosive diarrheoa (if indeed this is happening at a low 2-4000mgs). Plus increase the fibre by raw fruit and vegetables, nuts, seeds and wholegrains through the day. The previous amounts may not be as bad as you think. Increase your daily amount say to 1000mg every 4 hours with food to attain a "Dynamic Flow" of C throughout the day. When you're used to that, take maybe 1-2000mg every 4 hours. You may be suprised at how much the body can absorb. Oh, consider that you may suffering from a pre-existing condition I mentioned before. There may be other conditions as well which could be making the Bowel Tolerance so low.

Good luck

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Post Number:#11  Post by Steve Brown » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:37 pm

Thanks for your reply. I am happy and in good health, with no bowel or kidney problems, taking 750 milligrams of vitamin C daily. That's 250 mg as ascorbic acid and 500 mg as mineral ascorbates. That is in addition to supplements of vitamin E and alpha lipoic acid, plus a diet which includes lots of fruits and vegetables. I do not consider that diarrhea or excessive thirst resulting from taking 1 gram or more of vitamin C indicates I have a condition. On the contrary, I think it means I do not have high oxidative stress, that I utilize vitamin C efficiently, and that excess amounts are simply excreted.

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Re: Bowel tolerance, then kidney tolerance

Post Number:#12  Post by BIOHazard87 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:07 pm

Sorry for "grave digging" but I wanted to say that for the first time, I noticed the diuretic "effect" late last night... I was constantly thirsty and frequent urination, it didnt seem I took much more ascorbate over what I normally take if any extra, so I dont know why this happened. I was wondering why I kept getting thirsty, I drank about 5-6 bottles of water in a few hours, so this thread clears things up for me.
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Re: Bowel tolerance, then kidney tolerance

Post Number:#13  Post by carlp » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:34 pm

I too notice the frequent need for water and urination, especially during the night when I'm sleeping. To minimize that effect, I make my last dosage of vitamin C taken at 7pm so that I can sleep without waking up with the need to go to the bathroom. I find 20 grams of vitamin C a day is the optimal amount for me.


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