Origin of 'vitamin C complex' errata

What is vitamin C? Is there such a thing as a vitamin C complex? Why do so many people now believe in the complex?

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trillian
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Origin of 'vitamin C complex' errata

Post Number:#1  Post by trillian » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:38 am

I know this issue has been discussed here in some form or other.

What I am curious about is where did this stuff come from about vitamin C
having to be a'complex'. Is it from a purveyor of other so-called 'natural'
and plant-derived products who has begun to think everything should be
treated similarly? Is it product driven or is there some
source of this philosophy that has any merit?

I am trying to convince the company I work with to carry a pure ascorbic acid
powder and the reply was this business about it must be a complex and I was
referred to an article by a Mr Tim O'Shea which is so fraught with logical and
factual error that I don't know where to begin.

The article can be found here; http://thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr.php ... tamins.php


His website mission statement says;

"Today the field of alternative medicine is like a wild jungle, full of unsubstantiated claims, junk science, and marketing hype.

This website is dedicated to providing referenced, scientific data on a variety of holistic and alternative medicine topics, focusing on universal principles, sound physiology, and the undiluted healing powers of the body itself."

...Yet he seems to be guilty as anyone of disseminating erroneous information, at least
on this subject.

One of the claims in his article I am curious about is that he says Scurvy has not
ever been cured / prevented by ascorbic acid alone, I'd love to see proof that this is false
because it would backup my position that this guy doesn't know what he's
talking about.

Thanks,
Sheryl

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Post Number:#2  Post by joiv » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:33 am

What about those who get treated for scurvy in hospitals? They sure don't get any complex - only the real thing (too bad they get such small amounts). However, sooner or later they no longer suffer from acute scurvy.

People like this Mr Tim O'Shea and their false statements make it hard to find true health information.

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Post Number:#3  Post by fitzgerald » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:59 am

This has been covered. Maybe product driven.
http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/vie ... ++ascorbic

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Post Number:#4  Post by trillian » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:05 am

fitzgerald wrote:This has been covered. Maybe product driven.
http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/vie ... ++ascorbic


Yeah, I knew it had been discussed but I had not seen that thread. It appears that Standard Process may be the largest culprit in spreading this propaganda and Tim O'Shea is a chiropractor.

What it seems like to me is that there are some well-meaning people who tout the philosophy
of whole foods and natural products, which is generally a good thing but they have mistakenly
lumped vit C / ascorbic acid in with it on the erroneous data coming from somewhere, perhaps
Standard Process.

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Post Number:#5  Post by Dolev » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:13 am

No end to the BS about vitamin C complex, and natural sources and all that from well-meaning people who like the idea. I simply tell them that thousands of scientific works have used pure, laboratory produced ascorbic acid. I also tell them that I believe the 50 mg of vitamin c in an orange probably is worth twice as much as 50 mg of lab stuff, so if they want to take 5 grams to prevent a cold they only need to eat 50 oranges instead of 100.
Dolev

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Re: Origin of 'vitamin C complex' errata

Post Number:#6  Post by DanSco » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:43 am

trillian wrote:One of the claims in his article I am curious about is that he says Scurvy has not
ever been cured / prevented by ascorbic acid alone, I'd love to see proof that this is false
because it would backup my position that this guy doesn't know what he's
talking about.

Thanks,
Sheryl


Scurvy is prevented by ascorbic acid alone in 99%+ of the animal species on this planet on a continuous basis.
-DanSco

Note: I am not a doctor nor do I pretend to be one on the internet. Do not duplicate what I do without a pat on the head from your doctor and a note from your mommy.

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Glad we are discussing this

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:50 pm

This is a very important discussion. Buried in my NATURE OF VITAMIN C paper is the idea that only vitamin C is protected by DSHEA (1994) so that if this erroneous notion that ascorbic acid is not vitamin C were to take hold, then the FDA could regulate ascorbic acid as a non-food and require a prescription, etc. This seems absurd to us, but there are SO MANY WELL MEANING people who have bought the "complex" hook, line and sinker.

Standard Process is the primary "culprit" in the sense that they are highly respected, and almost all Chiropractors purchase their excellent products and parrot what this company tells them.

We are working on it.

#1. The Townsend Letter says they will publish The Nature of VItamin C paper in an upcoming issue.

#2. Hickey and Dr. Saul are working on a vitamin C handbook for practitioners , (I don't think this is confidential?), and mentioned that it will cover the C-Complex nonsense.

#3. This forum is important. If ANYONE reading this really has a scientific basis for the C-Complex idea, they are free to present their evidence to this community. We welcome all input.

By the way, when you see a Chiropractor's web site, you can help by contacting them,
challenging the assertion - especially about scurvy - and pointing them to the Nature of VItamin C Paper (link) and asking for a response. Again, here is the link


http://vitamincfoundation.org/NaturalC.htm
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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vitamin P, bioflavonoids, catechins and polyphenols.

Post Number:#8  Post by Ralph Lotz » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:18 pm

Vitamin P, bioflavonoids, catechins and polyphenols are marvelous healthful things.
One thing that they are not is Vitamin C.
They function as antioxidants, strengthen collagen and aid in cell membrane permeability.
Bioflanonoids produce a kind of timed release effect on ascorbic acid.

[/b]
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

blueskymyne

whole food form vitamin c

Post Number:#9  Post by blueskymyne » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:21 pm

I agree with what Tim O'Shea says about the complex of vitamin C and I make no bones about it, Tuberose (vitamins) and Dr. Ben Kim as well.

Funny how nature has had a billion years to figure this all out in what works in the human body and modern man comes along and says, "nope mother nature is all wrong we need to fix it" lol.

Now me or someone else needs to offer proof that mother nature is not flawed with scientific refferences? lol.

Seems that the other 3 non ascorbate producers get by just fine dont they? I mean these creatures arent ill and sickly because they arent getting corn starch extracted ascorbic acid. lol.

The British sailors proved it, the Antarctic explorers proved it and Owen himself just posted a link stating that food source vitamin c cuts risk of stomach cancer. So yeah I bought it hook line and sinker. Nature is not flawed, never has been.

For top sources of vitamin c, real vitamin c, chinese wolfberries are one of the highest sources and contain everything with coenzymes and cofactors including select amino acids and b-vitamins to produce seratonin. Acerola cherries and camu camu are other great sources in high content of authetic vitamin c complex.

In this way it takes much less for its effects and thats why it was discovered by the Antarctic team that it only took one lime to reverse the condition of scurvy and not large bowell tollerance doses of ascorbic acid or 50 oranges per man.
Segent Goyrski < spell that right? even he said he couldnt cure scurvy in the lab using ascorbic acid extract alone.


There can be no better source of vitamin C, real vitamin C than fruits and vegetables. Thats right, vegetables as in broccoli which contains high amounts of vitamin c provided you dont microwave it. Hell no wonder the population has acute scurvy, most people destroy their food in the microwave.


"Let food be your medicine"- Linus Pauling. Go ahead and argue with the man himself.



8)

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Re: whole food form vitamin c

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:25 am

First, thank you for your honesty. This forum WELCOMES contrary opinions. We seek truth, or at least the right direction, and there are always two sides. This also makes for quite interesting reading.

Comments on your remarks below, but I wonder if you have read THE NATURE OF VITAMIN C paper? If so I would highly value your remarks ( estimation of the errors in that paper), as it must have many errors (if what you believe is correct.)



blueskymyne wrote:I agree with what Tim O'Shea says about the complex of vitamin C and I make no bones about it, Tuberose (vitamins) and Dr. Ben Kim as well.

Funny how nature has had a billion years to figure this all out in what works in the human body and modern man comes along and says, "nope mother nature is all wrong we need to fix it" lol.

Now me or someone else needs to offer proof that mother nature is not flawed with scientific refferences? lol.


No one is arguing against Nature, sir. However, the Nature I am interested in is the natural processes of animal livers (and a few kidneys) which manufacture ascorbic acid out of glucose as discussed ad naseum at this forum. To my knowledge, there is NO aminal liver that produces any of the bioflavonoids (and if they do/did, that might explain why it is not a vitamin - we already make it.)

But on what basis do you assume that what appears in plants is right for us to eat? Poison Ivy is natural.


Seems that the other 3 non ascorbate producers get by just fine dont they? I mean these creatures arent ill and sickly because they arent getting corn starch extracted ascorbic acid. lol.


Another way to look at it this is that ONLY 3 non ascorbate producers survived evolution to this point. We've also had plenty of discussion about how a paleolithic-style diet would allow humans to exist on much smaller oral intakes of ascorbate.


The British sailors proved it, the Antarctic explorers proved it and Owen himself just posted a link stating that food source vitamin c cuts risk of stomach cancer. So yeah I bought it hook line and sinker. Nature is not flawed, never has been.



I think I understand you point, but the confusion is still what is vitamin C? Yes, all these survived by eating foods with ascorbate. But the process of science let to the following advanced understanding


SYNTHETIC VITAMIN PRODUCES STRIKING UNEXPECTED CURES
From the September 22, 1934, issue of Science News
Synthetic vitamin C, called ascorbic acid, in its first actual use on medical patients is producing very striking and unexpected disease conquests, the British Association for the Advancement of Science was informed by Prof. A. Szent-Györgyi, the Hungarian chemist who played a major role in the artificial manufacture of this important vitamin. The mouth disorder known as pyorrhea, a certain kind of hemophilia, which is a disease of bleeding, certain forms of hemorrhagic nephritis, and several other diseases against which medicine was helpless are seemingly being cured by ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is not a cure for hereditary hemophilia.

"This is the more striking since these pathological conditions have not been thought to be connected with lack of vitamin," Prof. Szent-Györgyi explained. "These curative effects suggest that humanity is suffering much more gravely from a lack of vitamin C than has hitherto been supposed."
Disfiguring colorations of the skin brought on by illness are also made to disappear by ascorbic acid. Patients with Addison's disease, who have a yellow color, can be bleached out again by the use of this substance





For top sources of vitamin c, real vitamin c, chinese wolfberries are one of the highest sources and contain everything with coenzymes and cofactors including select amino acids and b-vitamins to produce seratonin. Acerola cherries and camu camu are other great sources in high content of authetic vitamin c complex.

In this way it takes much less for its effects and thats why it was discovered by the Antarctic team that it only took one lime to reverse the condition of scurvy and not large bowell tollerance doses of ascorbic acid or 50 oranges per man.
Segent Goyrski < spell that right? even he said he couldnt cure scurvy in the lab using ascorbic acid extract alone.


There can be no better source of vitamin C, real vitamin C than fruits and vegetables. Thats right, vegetables as in broccoli which contains high amounts of vitamin c provided you dont microwave it. Hell no wonder the population has acute scurvy, most people destroy their food in the microwave.


"Let food be your medicine"- Linus Pauling. Go ahead and argue with the man himself.



8)


There is no problem eating healthy foods, we encourage it, but to achieve therapeutic effects in humans (which really only matches "natural" serum levels in animals) one must ingest more ascorbate that one can receive in the ordinary non-paleolithic diet.

p.s. The vitamin P discussion in this form clearly presents the Szent Gyorgi finding - has to do with capillary fragility, not scurvy. And in fact is in truth, he said that bioflavonoids have "no activity' with ascorbic acid present.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: whole food form vitamin c

Post Number:#11  Post by trillian » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:32 pm

blueskymyne wrote:I
Seems that the other 3 non ascorbate producers get by just fine dont they? I mean these creatures arent ill and sickly because they arent getting corn starch extracted ascorbic acid. lol.

...Nature is not flawed, never has been.




Well, the problem with this logic is that first of all we may indeed 'get by' on a relatively small intake of vitamin C but this has nothing to do with optimum health. DNA operates on a survival algorithm, a natural selection engine and diversity engine optimised for survival alone and as long as the creature survives that is all that matters from nature's point of view so-to-speak. Our lifespan and our health don't enter into it as long as we survive. Humans need only live long enough to reproduce and thus to further the DNA as does any creature.

On the second comment, 'nature' is very often flawed as a matter of fact. To take another perspective there is no evidence to assume that nature is even on our side, it could well be that 'nature' is trying its best to wipe us out (and when one looks at the big picture that actually makes very good logical sense).

Lastly, ascorbic acid is ascorbic acid, it doesn't matter if a plant makes it or a goat's liver or a lab in China.

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Re: Glad we are discussing this

Post Number:#12  Post by trillian » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:35 pm

ofonorow wrote:By the way, when you see a Chiropractor's web site, you can help by contacting them,
challenging the assertion - especially about scurvy - and pointing them to the Nature of VItamin C Paper (link) and asking for a response. Again, here is the link




I sent Tim O'Shea an email the other day asking if he can clarify a couple points raised in his article but as yet I have
not received a reply.

individual freedom

Post Number:#13  Post by individual freedom » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:45 pm

not sure i understand the original question.

linus pauling discussed in one of his books the idea that plain synthetic ascorbic acid gave the best results and especially the best results for the money.

it would seem that the question could be related to the proliferation of misinformation re ascorbic acid.

for example, we don't need to know how to build a clock, when simply asking for "the time?".

likewise, we don't need to know how a printing press is constructed to "print money"...we just need to know that the worlds money system is controled by the most powerful, secret, foreign banking cartel, and that it destroys the "free marketplace"...and our freedoms.

as for ascorbic acid, we need to know, and understand that it works, and how to make it work well for ourselves.

probably of just as much importance is the question of how to get the truth out about ascorbic acid. this website is second to none. it is good to see the wealth of information re ascorbic acid here and also the forum working in a spirit of free discussion.

also of interest is the "how and why" of the telling of lies about ascorbic acid. a simple expose of this evil might be interesting and helpful. come to think of it, there is good reference right here on this very website.

the question of how to make ascorbic acid work BEST is a good topic. i simply needed to know that it works, how to take it, so that i could save my life.

fortunately, the large volume of misinformation re ascorbic acid did not get the better of me/us...yet.

for life and liberty,
individual freedom (richard)

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Post Number:#14  Post by trillian » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:01 pm

individual freedom wrote:not sure i understand the original question.



My original question explains what is being asked and why. I am trying to convince our
company to carry ascorbic acid powder but the response was that ascorbic acid is
not vitamin C and all this stuff about it being a 'complex' as in the Tim O'Shea
article I was referred to, so I am curious where these ideas come from.

Now, you and I both know it doesn't matter what they want to call it but
you and I don't need convincing.

I have also read in an unrelated article that there is some debate about whether
'vitamin C' is actually a 'vitamin' but that gets into the definition of a vitamin and
it's really just academic to me.

blueskymyne

Re: whole food form vitamin c

Post Number:#15  Post by blueskymyne » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:39 pm

trillian wrote:
blueskymyne wrote:I
Seems that the other 3 non ascorbate producers get by just fine dont they? I mean these creatures arent ill and sickly because they arent getting corn starch extracted ascorbic acid. lol.

...Nature is not flawed, never has been.




Well, the problem with this logic is that first of all we may indeed 'get by' on a relatively small intake of vitamin C but this has nothing to do with optimum health. DNA operates on a survival algorithm, a natural selection engine and diversity engine optimised for survival alone and as long as the creature survives that is all that matters from nature's point of view so-to-speak. Our lifespan and our health don't enter into it as long as we survive. Humans need only live long enough to reproduce and thus to further the DNA as does any creature.

On the second comment, 'nature' is very often flawed as a matter of fact. To take another perspective there is no evidence to assume that nature is even on our side, it could well be that 'nature' is trying its best to wipe us out (and when one looks at the big picture that actually makes very good logical sense).

Lastly, ascorbic acid is ascorbic acid, it doesn't matter if a plant makes it or a goat's liver or a lab in China.





Well, explain why other cultures of the world such as the Hunza in the mountains of Pakistan, who never see processed food or supplements, televisions, electricity or have no clue about Linus Pauling live to be 100 and beyond and suffer no diabetes, heart disease, obesity or cancer? Common major diseases that are rampant in modern culture.

These people only eat the native diet. Why dont they suffer vitamin c deficiencies? Its not like their dying waiting for the UPS truck to arrive with supplements. lol

Because they get it from the food at optimal amounts to sustain a long healthy life. There are other cultures who live long lives as well.


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