Origin of 'vitamin C complex' errata

What is vitamin C? Is there such a thing as a vitamin C complex? Why do so many people now believe in the complex?

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Ralph Lotz
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Destroy Modern Culture and Move to Pakistan?

Post Number:#16  Post by Ralph Lotz » Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:57 am

These naturalist arguments leave no hope for those who live in modern cities.
Bully for those fortunate enough to live in Shangrila. What about the rest of us who live in the modern urban world?
I guess we should just follow Cousteau's advice and drop dead - Commit suicide and save a tree.

Where are people living in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, London, Tokyo or Berlin going to get enough camu-camu, acerola berries or wolf berries to supply their vitamin C needs?
I haven't found many at Whole Foods or Trader Joe's.

How about the cost vs. benefit?

Ascorbic acid costs 2.2 cents per gram and would save Medicare $87 billion dollars per year if every American consumed about 700 mg daily, according to Bill Sardi.
You can get 454 grams of ascorbic acid at Trader Joe's for $10. That is a gram a day for 454 days - for just ten bucks.

Ascorbic acid saves lives. That was Pauling's message. Plain old affordable C6H8O6.
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Re: whole food form vitamin c

Post Number:#17  Post by trillian » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:26 am

blueskymyne wrote:


Well, explain why other cultures of the world such as the Hunza in the mountains of Pakistan, who never see processed food or supplements, televisions, electricity or have no clue about Linus Pauling live to be 100 and beyond and suffer no diabetes, heart disease, obesity or cancer? Common major diseases that are rampant in modern culture.

These people only eat the native diet. Why dont they suffer vitamin c deficiencies? Its not like their dying waiting for the UPS truck to arrive with supplements. lol

Because they get it from the food at optimal amounts to sustain a long healthy life. There are other cultures who live long lives as well.



Well, not all of us can live sedate rural lifestyles eating berries and fruit all day. "lol". Gorillas get a high vit C diet from the fruits and berries they eat as well. Yes, your point about a healthy diet is completely valid and I agree that most modern Western diets are the biggest problem but none of that addresses the fact that we have lost the gene providing the enzyme needed to synthesize our own ascorbic acid and unlike gorillas or the hunzas we have the knowledge and ability to understand this and compensate for it.

Cultures like the Hunzas also benefit from more exercise, cleaner air, a less toxic environment, less stress etc. and those are often things that people in today's modern society have little power to change.

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Not logical

Post Number:#18  Post by CPlus » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:47 am

Using the Hunzas as an example is getting a little off-track on this very interesting discussion. Their way of life produces good health, but it is not a logical argument to say that therefore consuming artficial vitamins does not produce good health.

I look forward to more information on why natural vitamin C works and synthetic "doesn't". I have come across Cytoplan's 'food state' vitamins in the UK and I believe them to be a scientifically based company, so I'm not sure what to believe. I take Holland and Barrett's pure ascorbic acid powder for therapeutic doses, but I also use synthetic ascorbic acid tablets with added bioflavonoids for normal daily dosing, and I think they both work, in the short term. Will they help protect me from cancer or heart disease in 30 years time though?

Jonathan

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Value of Synthetic Ascorbic Acid

Post Number:#19  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:08 am

My original question explains what is being asked and why. I am trying to convince our
company to carry ascorbic acid powder but the response was that ascorbic acid is
not vitamin C and all this stuff about it being a 'complex'
as in the Tim O'Shea
article I was referred to, so I am curious where these ideas come from.

Now, you and I both know it doesn't matter what they want to call it but
you and I don't need convincing.

I have also read in an unrelated article that there is some debate about whether
'vitamin C' is actually a 'vitamin'
but that gets into the definition of a vitamin and
it's really just academic to me.


When vitamin C advocates question whether or not vitamin C is really a "vitamin", this may cause more confusion than it is worth.

Like a vitamin, vitamin C is required for life. Death results if no ascorbic acid is consumed. (By the way, life ensues whether or not any complex is added to the ascorbic acid).

Unlike an ordinary vitamin, which are required in relatively small amounts, better health and longevity results from higher amounts than are generally found, even in good foods. (Support for this assertion: the amount of vitamin C in today's diet is not sufficient to raise our serum levels to be roughly equivalent with most other species, who make their own 24/7.)

It is funny that the cultures who live so long are so removed from civilization. So removed that we must take people's word for it that they live so long.

Finally, blueskymyne, I am anxiously awaiting your comments and answers to questions in my previous post, your criticism of The Nature of Vitamin C paper, especially errors, so I may correct them before this paper is widely published. Thx!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Post Number:#20  Post by CPlus » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:52 am

It is funny that the cultures who live so long are so removed from civilization. So removed that we must take people's word for it that they live so long


Owen,

As far as I'm aware the information on the diets of remote tribes was investigated by Dr Weston Price (and probably others), who visited them and found them to be free of Western degenerative diseases, and he based his health information on that. I'm happy to take his word for it. Aren't you?

Death results if no ascorbic acid is consumed. (By the way, life ensues whether or not any complex is added to the ascorbic acid)


Tim O'Shea disputes that. Has a medical trial been done to feed someone (or maybe a guinea pig?) a diet with no natural vitamin C in their food, but with added synthetic ascorbic acid to see if he is right?

In case you are wondering, I'm on your side, but I would like to know the reasoning why the natural vitamin proponents think what they do, and whether it can be backed up by scientific tests.

Jonathan

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Good questions

Post Number:#21  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:49 am

I would like to know the reasoning why the natural vitamin proponents think what they do, and whether it can be backed up by scientific tests.


Don't we all.

I respect Weston Price and his findings, however, even he had to take their word on longevity (or did he live with them for 50, 60 or 70 years?)

And as we have pointed out - patients in comas are given "complete nutrition" products in hospitals, usually IV, and these products have ascorbic acid - no complex. (When Ensure was first introduced, patients died over time. Turns out that biotin is a vitamin, but that wasn't known that biotin was an essential vitamin. They added biotin and today you can live indefinitely on the ingredients in the Ensure formula.

I have seen no explanation from the naturalists about this fact.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

blueskymyne

Re: Good questions

Post Number:#22  Post by blueskymyne » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:11 pm

ofonorow wrote:
I would like to know the reasoning why the natural vitamin proponents think what they do, and whether it can be backed up by scientific tests.


Don't we all.

I respect Weston Price and his findings, however, even he had to take their word on longevity (or did he live with them for 50, 60 or 70 years?)

And as we have pointed out - patients in comas are given "complete nutrition" products in hospitals, usually IV, and these products have ascorbic acid - no complex. (When Ensure was first introduced, patients died over time. Turns out that biotin is a vitamin, but that wasn't known that biotin was an essential vitamin. They added biotin and today you can live indefinitely on the ingredients in the Ensure formula.

I have seen no explanation from the naturalists about this fact.






Sure Owen,

Lets have a look at the Ensure ingedients. Keep in mind the higher on the list makes up more of the bulk of the product.

Water, sugar, cornsyrup, maltodextrin, calcium caseniate, high-oleic safflower oil, canola oil, soy protein isolate, whey protien concentrate, corn oil, calcium phosphate tribasic, potassium citrate, magnesium phosphate dibasic, natural and artificial flavor, soy lectihin, sodium citrate, magnesium chloride, salt, carrageenan, choline chloride, potassium chloride, ascorbic acid, ferrous sulfate, alpha tocopherhyl acetate, zinc sulfate, niacinamide, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, cupric sulfate, vitamin A palimitate, thiamine chloride hydrocloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, ribofavin, folic acid, chromium chloride, biotin, sodium molybdate, sodium selenate, potassium iodine, phylloquinone, vitamin d-3 and cyanocobalamin.


So the bulk of this product is water sugar and corn syrup.

Anyone in a hospital that is a cancer patient or suffering from sepsis or other types of severe infection drinking this crap is unaware that sugar fuels cancer tumor growth and suppresses the immune system.

high oleic safflower, canola and corn oils are the worst oils to put in the body. Canola comes from the rapeseed family and insects in nature avoid it because it is toxic. Mustard gas was created from the rapeseed. All of these oils promote inflammation, are already heavily oxidized and clog arteries.

Ferrous sulfate as we discussed is nothing but free-unbound metallic iron. Free unbound iron promotes the disease process unlike iron bound to tannins in naturally occuring foods like figs. Which is why the mynah bird never overdosed on iron rich figs until put in captivity and fed iron ENRICHED bird food which then led to iron overload. Cancer thrives on free iron as does bacteria, fungus and virus. We discussed that earlier. Iron from non heme sources as vegetables is cleaved off in the body on a need be basis and this is why you dont overload on organic iron. Red meat, enriched iron is another story.

Third bulk indgredient: Corn syrup. lol. You have to be kidding me! Why not just give them vitamin enriched soda pop?

Its clear to me why people were dying from it at first.

Its dead food. Empty calories, loaded with artery clogging oxidized oils with no essential omega 3, loaded with sugar, artificial flavors, loaded with corn syrup, no enzymes, promotes body-wide inflamation due to the trifecta of harmful oils, feeds diseases like tumors with tons sugar and free unbound iron.

This type of product is typical of hospital food. They team up with food distributors and are ignorant about health and nutrients. I have actually seen this crap fed to cancer patients.


You can not live indefinetly off of this product. It will kill you slowly with any of the major diseases despite the added nutrients. It doesnt mask the toxicity of high sugar which leaches these very nutrients added to the product.

Sugar is a potent immune suppressant and tumor fuel and fuel for yeast, bacteria and fungus. Thats well accepted.

You know as well as I do by what John Ely wrote. Refined sugar blocks ascorbic uptake.

Whats the point of putting the two indgredients in the same product with high concentrations of sugar?
Most all of these other nutrients are blocked by the sugar as its effects on metabolic, hormonal and digestive processes.


This is not food. It is dead food and doesnt sustain life only promotes disease which is why hospitals use it. The worse you get the more treatment and drugs you get.

Might come in handy to lubricate my garbage disposal however.

zucic

Re: whole food form vitamin c

Post Number:#23  Post by zucic » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:56 am

blueskymyne wrote:I agree with what Tim O'Shea says about the complex of vitamin C and I make no bones about it, Tuberose (vitamins) and Dr. Ben Kim as well.

"Let food be your medicine"- Linus Pauling. Go ahead and argue with the man himself.

?This Tim O'Shea:
B.A. Psychology---- Ohio State University
B.A. English---- University Of Akron
Doctor Of Chiropractic---- Life Chiropractic College, 1986 ?
Benjamin Kim is a chiropractor too.

They are certainly not competent to say something about chemistry and/or physics. The so-called synthetic vitamin C is the same thing as the natural vitamin C. These two guys are not supposed to redefine the term "vitamin C" because other people used this a long time ago.

And "Let food be your medicine" is just a partial quotation of Hippocrates. He said this ~2400 years ago.

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Avoiding the issue

Post Number:#24  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:19 am

You can not live indefinetly off of this product. It will kill you slowly with any of the major diseases despite the added nutrients. It doesnt mask the toxicity of high sugar which leaches these very nutrients added to the product.


I am not defending the formula, (and I don't believe that formula on the market to drink is the same as given as Parenteral Nutrition to coma patients), The point is that there is no C complex - only ascorbic acid. This is the proof that vitamin C is required, and that a C-complex is not.

And coma patients do live indefinitely, sometimes 20 years, on parenteral nutrition. (This is as good an experiment as we'll get - in humans - as to what nutrients are really essential. If the C-complex is REALLY vitamin C, we should not be able to exist without it. This is the definition of a vitamin. Patients in comas do not get scurvy, at least they do not suffer a frank vitamin C deficiency, ergo, any other substance not in parenteral nutrition, e.g. a bioflavonoid complex, can not be vitamin C. It can be healthy. It can even be important. But anything not in these products is not essential to life, ergo, the Complex is not vitamin C - by definition.)

p.s. You can also use google to verify that patients in comas require more sugar than normal in order to survive.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

blueskymyne

Re: whole food form vitamin c

Post Number:#25  Post by blueskymyne » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:28 pm

zucic wrote:
blueskymyne wrote:I agree with what Tim O'Shea says about the complex of vitamin C and I make no bones about it, Tuberose (vitamins) and Dr. Ben Kim as well.

"Let food be your medicine"- Linus Pauling. Go ahead and argue with the man himself.

?This Tim O'Shea:
B.A. Psychology---- Ohio State University
B.A. English---- University Of Akron
Doctor Of Chiropractic---- Life Chiropractic College, 1986 ?
Benjamin Kim is a chiropractor too.

They are certainly not competent to say something about chemistry and/or physics. The so-called synthetic vitamin C is the same thing as the natural vitamin C. These two guys are not supposed to redefine the term "vitamin C" because other people used this a long time ago.

And "Let food be your medicine" is just a partial quotation of Hippocrates. He said this ~2400 years ago.




Zucic,

The creditials of Tim O'Shea are correct.

I noticed that you selectively excluded the referrences left at the bottom of his article as this was not his own project but a culmination of many including Dr. Royal Lee and about 10 others listed.


You want something said from someone credible with a nobel prize in physics?

Dr. Szent Giorgi stated that with just isolated ascorbic acid he had not found the active anti-scurvy factor of the C-complex.
With isolated ascorbic acid he could not stop capillary hemorraging (one characteristic of scuvy) that HE COULD RELIABLY INFLUENCE WITH THE C-COMPLEX.

Re-read the paragraph above until it is clear to you what someone with competence has stated.

He went back to the lab and discovered vitamin P, the rutin factor of the C-complex, which exist more in buckwheat than citrus.

P-factor of the C-complex he found gives capillary and blood vessel strength, the J-factors increase the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood.


Now what is that has changed since the father of the discovery of ascorbic acid learned that scurvy could not be prevented or ameliorated with isolated ascorbic acid?


Now why do think that Linus Pauling carried the quote from Hippocrates? You think he learned something?




http://www.tuberose.com/Vitamins.html

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This information is wrong about Dr. Giorgi

Post Number:#26  Post by ofonorow » Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:43 am

B-
Insults aside, this makes for an interesting discussion. Your assertions about Dr. Giorgi are the crucial points. I believe that you, and every other person on the Internet that uses quotes from Dr. Giorgi out-of-context, (in the sense that they were made just after the discovery of vitamin C, and before much was known about ascorbate), are not justified using them in light of his 1937 Nobel Prize lecture. In that lecture, he mentions the "long road of discovery", and the PROOF the the isolated ascorbic acid is identical with vitamin C.

My reference is this lecture
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medi ... ecture.pdf

Some quotes from the 1937 lecture by Dr. A. Azent-Gyorgyi

Pg 7 (pdf) Page 446 "From the begining I had suspected that the (isolated) substance was identical with vitamin C. But my unsettled way of life was not suited for vitamin experiments, concening which I had not had any experience either."

Pg 8 (pdf) Page 447 See figure 4 - just above it reads "This was the first proof that ascorbic acid was identical with vitamin C"




Therefore the following assertions that you make are clearly in error.

You want something said from someone credible with a nobel prize in physics?

Dr. Szent Giorgi stated that with just isolated ascorbic acid he had not found the active anti-scurvy factor of the C-complex.

With isolated ascorbic acid he could not stop capillary hemorraging (one characteristic of scuvy) that HE COULD RELIABLY INFLUENCE WITH THE C-COMPLEX.

Now what is that has changed since the father of the discovery of ascorbic acid learned that scurvy could not be prevented or ameliorated with isolated ascorbic acid?


Let us keep an open mind. I for one would appreciate seeing anything that supports these assertions. (Other than sites that repeat simply repeat them! These assertions are every where).

I think one confusion is the fact that bioflavonoids (and not ascorbate) seemed to help a fragile capilliary problem, as you mentioned:
With isolated ascorbic acid he could not stop capillary hemorraging (one characteristic of scuvy) that HE COULD RELIABLY INFLUENCE WITH THE C-COMPLEX.


However, this may, or may not be true. In science, experiments must be repeatable. For example, little was known about vitamin C during those early times and perhaps the "isolate" he used was something else, or had lost potency, etc. And Dr. Girogi mentioned that electron transfer was his field, not vitamins.

If this were true, this is an easy experiment to replicate. (The next link indicates that there may be considerable truth, but Ensure test still holds - these other factors are not essential for life = ascorbate is essential for human life.)

Another problem is confusing scurvy with fragile capillaries.

This link from a previous vitamin P post has a balanced story, as told by a Vitamin P expert, it does not support your quotes, however.
http://www.healthy.net/scr/interview.asp?Id=172
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Post Number:#27  Post by Dolev » Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:51 pm

Thanks Owen, my faith was shaken for a moment. As I said earlier, the thousands of experiments showing vitamin C's usefullness all used pure AA. There's no reason for this discussion except that O'Shea and others keep beating the dead horse and those watching think the horse is moving on its own.
Dolev

blueskymyne

Post Number:#28  Post by blueskymyne » Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:25 am

Of course this is what was wrong with man kind in his evolution all along.

He was void of ascorbic acid factories to bring him this far in thousands of years in his evolution.

I now know why these giants are behind synthetic vitamins. They add it to food, processed food and the public takes a look at the ingedients on that loaf of bread, box of cereal, beverage product or can of ens*re, (diareah in a can) and thinks, "look at all the vitamins, this is healthy" .

Little do they know what things like free iron do in their system or these synthetic fractioned vitamins that recombine in the body and steal from the body from other processes to form what makes them whole when found in nature. The "wrapper" that man removed in his lab.

How else could you subtlely make a population sick with multiple diseases is to add these fractioned substances back into the food BY LAW so the public assumes these are beneficial.

How much is the treatment industry worth to treat the problems caused by this when the body tries to recombine these fractioned molecules creating further deficiencies. We are an overfed population that is nutrient deficient and starving for nutrients, not synthetic, fractioned molecules produced in a lab. You develope an ailment because of the processed food, you think vitamins are needed, exacerbating the problem then wind up at the hospital or clinic where drugs are prescribed for the symptom. BRILLIANT.

Is it any wonder the kidneys excrete this stuff as fast as possible? Get rid of it.

This form of fake vitamin c known as ascobic acid is really nothing but extracted ascorbic acid from corn starch.

Just like what prevented scurvy in early British and Anarctic explorers right? Just exactly what sustained longevity of the Hunza and several other cultures of the world into old age, Just like what sustains the 3 other non ascorbate producers to a full life.

All these beings had to do was wait for the synthetic vitamin factories to be built so they could suffer the disease and degeneration that is rampant in the USA and other modern countries. This is called going forward in reverse.
When we captured these non ascorbate producers and put them in cages and fed them fractioned molecules in fortified foods they died prematurely. This is exactly what man does to himself. ON PURPOSE for profits. There is nothing profitable about food in health.

The human body needs ascorbic acid allright provided it comes in its WRAPPER that the body UNWRAPS with the ENZYMES and COFACTORS that comes with the ascorbic acid.

You cant add a synthetic molecule to the body as everything within the body acts as antagonists or synergists to one another. One of something, especially in high doses causes problems with something else.

Its fine that scientists recognized these single fractions of vitamins and isolated them from compounds where they naturally occur binded with protiens, enzymes that exist with minerals in the foods. To study these things in their individual states,

But these are manufactured by man in a lab/factory and do more harm to the body than good when it is mistaken that you can reduce something from whole to its parts and turn around and call it whole.

And that includes ascorbic acid, vitamin e, b-group vitamins and vitamin a that are synthetic and stripped down as found no where in nature.

Ive seen dozens of people come back to this site and say, "Its not working". Why does someone always say, "use more" lol. Nobody tells these people that these fractioned synthetic vitamins will make themselves whole once in the body by stealing what was stripped in the beginning.

This is the exact reason isolated iron from metallic steal added to processed food causes big problems in the body.
This is why the mynah bird dies from iron fortified bird food prematurely in captivity and overloads on iron yet never iron overloads on a iron rich fig diet when that iron is bound to tannins in organic food.

Ya think nature had a clue?

How come no one tells these people that the "rebound effect" that Cathcart speaks of has to do with this single dose of ascorbic acid and its effects on copper in the blood. Ascorbic acid has long been recognized as a contributing factor in copper depletion (tyrosine).

Of course ascorbic acid doesnt work on bacteria infections. Lymphocytes are dependent on the copper the core trace mineral of the tyrosine enzyme in the wrapper "complex".

Now throw off copper and what happens next. You throw off something else and it is a chain reaction of events that upsets the body. Then its this pain and that pain. And whats the answer? "use more"

I never recall Linus Pauling or anyone else even talk about the importance of bacteria in the colon and the effects of this high acid on probacteria. What, it doesnt exist? Invista.com (biotics) That is more important to preventing cancer and other diseases than drowning yourself with high acidity. This is the reason of flatuence.

Doesnt anyone mention that high doses of ascorbic acid in its non wrapped shell (extracted) will destroy 50-90% of b-12. What happens when you throw off b-12? Then you throw off half a dozen other functions.

All of these vitamin, mineral and enzymatic reactions are all intertwined and dont operate in a solitary nature.
Vitamins cannot function without minerals and not minerals that come from a lab drilled from mines and thrown into a mineral supplement dont complete the task.

Copper depletion doesnt happen in nature when the ascorbic acid is wrapped in its shell and the body does the unwrapping not the pharmacuetical company that refined the ascorbic acid. Nor does it happen with iron in organic sources when bound to tannins in organic fruits and vegetables. Same with the other fractioned synthetic vitamins and minerals.

You think millions of years of evolution in the plant world and the beings put here to consume these things that this was all figured out a long time ago and things were fine until man and his chemicals arrived and preverted, adulterated, reduced and distorted everything to his thinking of the way the world now needs to operate.

Let me remind you in 1900 cancer and many other diseases were vitually non existant. There was a 1-50 chance of a person getting cancer in 1900. With the advent of food processing, devitalizing foods and adding synthetic vitamins back in man has contributed to his own demise.

Now people suffer a 1 in 2 chance of getting cancer and the pharmacuetical companies run non stop ads on the television to pull on the publics heart strings that more drugs are needed to find the cure. What a joke when its man and chemicals that got us into this mess in the first place.

This doesnt include the other major diseases like widespread obesity, heart disease and dibetes.

This is man and his chemistry set at work. Disease treatment is a profitable business especially when you can dupe the population into thinking things are safe and healthy, like.....................fractioned synthetic vitamins sold at the health food store and dumping extra iron and synthetic vitamins in fortified foods in amounts and in combinations that produces negative effects. What a clever system to make people sick and reliant on a treatment industry of drugs.



Let food be your medicine-Linus Pauling. Carried from Hippocrates.

"more diseases are caused by mineral deficiencies" -linus pauling. (gee how did that happen)

"What is called rosehips vitamin c is the same pure crystalline ascorbic acid with a pinch of rose hips powder added, It is almost impossible to buy ascorbic acid from a natural source" "The rose hip and ascerolebarus ascorbic acid is from the same barrel at Hoffaman-LaRoche, as the others, but with a pinch of rose hip powder" -Linus Pauling

New Dynamics of Preventitive medicine.

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Beating a Dead Horse

Post Number:#29  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:07 am

Dolev wrote:Thanks Owen, my faith was shaken for a moment. As I said earlier, the thousands of experiments showing vitamin C's usefullness all used pure AA. There's no reason for this discussion except that O'Shea and others keep beating the dead horse and those watching think the horse is moving on its own.


I beg to differ. (See previous very long message from blueskymyne).

This point-of-view (a charitable term) is so prevalent, that I say again, the National Foundation for Alternative Medicine - really good guys - refused to fund a study of the Pauling therapy because we were proposing vitamin C - not the vitamin C complex. This is a very serious issue, and logic is apparently irrelevant to those making the C-complex arguments.

Note, if the point-of-view expressed by blueskymyne (above) prevails, many people will be harmed. Synthetic vitamin C is the only answer for millions, if not billions, and the end result of this unspecified natural complex idea is to cause massive, needless suffering. So I don't not ignore it, I want to understand its basis and origin.

By the way, I'm not saying this is blueskymyne intent is to harm people, (although it may be, we don't really know who any poster is.) but he never responds to a request, and drops several more bombs. (This is a technique I've seem before..) These arguments are not scientific, they are designed to appeal to emotion. The entire C-complex "movement" is based upon emotion. And emotion sways people.
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My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Still avoiding the issue

Post Number:#30  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:41 am

I don't mind arguing, but maybe we should try to limit our posts to one or two topics, as the posts would be easier to read and respond to.

I note that you still make the false claim that:

The human body needs ascorbic acid allright provided it comes in its WRAPPER that the body UNWRAPS with the ENZYMES and COFACTORS that comes with the ascorbic acid.


without any scientific support. (Please, where do the Eskimos - no heart disease - get their REQUIRED C complex from?)

The problem that you, O'Shea and other "good guys" will run into, over time, is a loss in credibility. Because, if you are this wrong about vitamin C (no other substance is so well researched) then why should people believe your other unsupported claims? Iron? Natural Vitamins? Etc.



Is it any wonder the kidneys excrete this stuff as fast as possible? Get rid of it.

This form of fake vitamin c known as ascobic acid is really nothing but extracted ascorbic acid from corn starch.


If you read Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER, perhaps you had some difficulty in the chapter that describes kidney's pumps? The kidneys have "pumps" to recyle vitamin C back into the blood.

By the way, the kidney excretes many substances, and this is part of the reason substances appear in the blood at "safe" levels within various ranges.

As far as "fake" vitamin C - if we assume that such a thing is possible, it would mean that the ascorbic acid produced in the livers of all other species, if not "fake", is somehow different. In what way is the molecule of C produced from corn different than the vitamin C produced in animals (from corn or other starches or sugars)? And what happened to the complex?


Just like what prevented scurvy in early British and Anarctic explorers right? Just exactly what sustained longevity of the Hunza and several other cultures of the world into old age, Just like what sustains the 3 other non ascorbate producers to a full life.


We've discussed the value of a low-carb, high fat/protein diet high in Omega/3, and how the vitamin C requirement of such a diet would be significantly less than current ascorbate requirements of a population on a typical high carb/high processed food/high trans fat diet. See the Paleo Lithic diet discussion. We are in agreement that a typical junk food diet is unhealthy.

And again, where do the Eskimos - no heart disease - get their REQUIRED C complex from?


All these beings had to do was wait for the synthetic vitamin factories to be built so they could suffer the disease and degeneration that is rampant in the USA and other modern countries. This is called going forward in reverse.


This is called a logical fallacy. Yes disease and degeneration is rampant in the USA, but you can not conclude from this that "synthetic vitamins" are the cause.

When we captured these non ascorbate producers and put them in cages and fed them fractioned molecules in fortified foods they died prematurely. This is exactly what man does to himself. ON PURPOSE for profits. There is nothing profitable about food in health.


Again, you mixing an apparent evil with something that I don't believe is evil at all. Even if we assume that profits are bad, and that those making our foods are trying to kill us, it does not follow that vitamins used to fortify food are harmful.

I'm interested in this claim about nonascorbate producers being put in cages and dying on synthetic vitamins. Do you have a reference/link? This could be interesting - see our clinical studies section on the Ginter work with guinea pigs - the PRIME nonascorbate producer.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


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