Ascorbic Acid versus Natural Vitamin C and C-complex

What is vitamin C? Is there such a thing as a vitamin C complex? Why do so many people now believe in the complex?

Moderator: ofonorow

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12313
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Ascorbic Acid versus Natural Vitamin C and C-complex

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:19 am

The Foundation is almost ready to publish our position paper on the Nature of Vitamin C and the so-called natural vitamin C and vitamin C-complex.

It has been sent out for review, and I'll post a few comments below.

If any forum members are willing to preview this paper and provide advice and comments, send me a private message with an email address than can accept attachments. Thanks for your help in advance!

A. Hoffer wrote:Dear Dr Fonorow:

Although I am more skeptical than most scientists when it comes to medical therapeutic claims I was very surprised by the argument that there is only a vitamin C complex and no such substance as vitamin C. In my opinion this is not a scientific matter but an important advertising problem. For years I have had patients tell me that they wanted to take only natural vitamins and no synthetics and this is after they had been taking many of man made( synthetic) vitamins with success. I point out to them that scientifically the pure vitamins whether made by man (synthetic) or whether made by plants (synthetic as well but made plants ) are
identical.

Synthetic vitamin C is bio-identical, the new term used in talking about human hormones, It is an interesting hypothesis but has no relevance since if they demanded only natural vitamins they would have to stop taking all the nutrients which are today present on the market. And even when nutrients such as vitamins and amino acids are extracted from plants they are no longer natural since they have been made by chemists who grind, mix, extract, purify and crystallize the products using all sorts of chemicals in order to do so, which are then sold as natural.

And finally I point out the word natural is a play on words and allows the producers to charge more for the item. If natural vitamin C products contained 90% synthetic ascorbic acid and they add 10% dried rose hips powder, this allows the label to use the word natural but the honest manufacturer will in small letters at the bottom add plus ascorbic acid.

The vitamin C role of ascorbic acid and its ascorbates are so well established as a vitamin that it will take an immense amount of very careful research to throw it over.

Certainty the other anti oxidants are also beneficial and are in food. Therefor to call a number of anti oxidants vitamin C complex is the same as calling niacin (B-3) not natural since it does not contain all the other B complex vitamins. We would have to call the B complex preparations on sale natural vitamin B-3 and all the others will disappear from our nutritional language. It is as logical as lumping all the anti oxidants together and calling it the anti oxidant vitamin.

I will accept that synthetic( human) vitamin C is not the same as synthetic (plants) vitamin C when the evidence is clear, and powerful.

The claim that synthetic vitamin C is toxic reminds me of the claims made by oncologists who with no evidence believe vitamin C prevents chemotherapy from being effective

A. Hoffer


p.s. OK to post on your website.

By the way have you noted that I am into a new career having given up my licence to practice in Dec last. You might look up my new website http://www.orthomolecularvitamincentre.com



Here is a comment from the Linus Pauling Institute and Oregon State:

Steve Lawon wrote:Dear Owen:

Thanks for sending a copy of your paper. I was unaware that any such controversy about vitamin C exists. Actually, among scientists, there is no controversy about “natural” and “synthetic” vitamin C: it is exactly the same molecule, regardless of source. As far as vitamin C activity is concerned, the only substance in the so-called “vitamin C complex” that provides this is ascorbic acid. This has been well established for many decades and is not in question among professional scientists.

Vitamin E is different. A protein synthesized in the liver, the alpha-tocopherol transfer protein, recognizes only the d-alpha, or natural, form for distribution to tissues. For this reason, the RDA for vitamin E is based only on natural vitamin E. Synthetic vitamin E, or dl-alpha-tocopherol, is only about half d-alpha-tocopherol.

Best wishes,

Steve Lawson

Last edited by ofonorow on Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12313
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Another Response and GOOD question

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:52 am

From the email after reviewing DRAFT position paper on Natural Vitamin C

What is the difference between scurvy and health? If you are on the ship in days of old and eat an orange or lemon, scurvy was eliminated. am I right? what has changed in the last 75 years to spur on CVD? haven't people been eating more fruits than ever or am I missing something? why would we need such massive amounts of C now to prevent CVD and not before? T



Great question, perhaps THE question that arises after people realise they may need so much vitamin C.

The simple answers:

a) Poorer diets containing a lot of SUGAR and man-made processed (trans) fats, e.g. like whats in most processed foods. (Those on low-carb, high natural fat and Omega-3 (fish) need LESS vitamin C. e.g., eskimos)

b) Before anitbiotics, people prone to heart disease died of infection first.

c) Better detection. We can live our lives with chronic scurvy - plaque in the arteries - and never know it. So did our ancestors.

It is a largely unrecognized fact that after steady growth in mortality from 1900 to 1970, (in 1970 approximately 700,000 Americans died), after Pauling's book was published, best seller, there was a 300% increase in consumption of vitamin C - USA only, and USA was only industrial country where mortality rate DECLINED. Since 1970 heart disease mortality has declined by 40%, so that in 2000 some 400,000 died (with a 1/3 larger population!)

See the following graph/discussion

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mortality.html
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12313
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Position Paper Posted - Reward Offered

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:50 am

We posted our Position paper on the Natural Vitamin C and the so-called C-Complex at: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/NaturalC.pdf

We will offer a reward for finding errors. The first person who sends me a private message with a legit error in this .PDF file will receive either a free 6 months subscription to the Cancer forum, or a six month free extension to their current subscription. One free subscription per error.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

NaturopathMan

I can clear up the Vitamin C versus Ascorbic Acid Confusion

Post Number:#4  Post by NaturopathMan » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:15 pm

Vitamin C complex and Ascorbic Acid are clearly two different things. Isolates do not occur in nature. Not only AA, but all vitamins are complexes. In nature, things always work in synergy. You can view the differences btween vitamin C complex, synthetic ascorbic acid and naturally derived ascorbic acid under a high powered microscope. I suggest that you do this for yourselves if you have access to the equipment. Does this mean that isolated ascorbic acid has no medicinal use? Of course not, it has many uses. Just keep in mind that when you use it this way you are not using it as a nutrient but as an isolate, more like a natural drug. This is why it has a much quicker and stronger effect than a whole food complex. Nature buffers things and does things in moderation so that there won't be side effects. This can be seen in the comparison of drugs and the herbs that contain the same drug like substance. Ascorbic acid, especially in large doses has a diferent physiological effect on the body than whole food vitamin C complex. The uses of isolates like AA can have incredible medicinal effects if used properly in the short term. The problem is when you use these things over long periods, usually more than 2 or 3 months. What happens is that because a vitamin is a complex it can only be utilized with all the co factors, enzymes etc. The body can usually provide these things and in the short term it is not a problem but over time the body will not be able to provide sufficient amounts of these co factors and problems can arise. Deficiencies of the co factors can easily occur. Larges does of zinc over extended periods can induce a copper deficiency. Large doses of ascorbic acid over long periods of time can induce a bioflavaniod or tyrosinase (a form of copper) deficiencies. There can be side effects that may not be connected to the use of the isolate. For example, I know of a patient who was using large doses of IV ascorbic acid for a medical treatment for many months. The therapy was useful but the patient began to suddenly get varicose veins on his legs and broken blood vessels on his face. I would guess that this was because there were not adequate bioflavanoids given along with the ascorbic acid but there may have been another cause. The point is there can be side effects with long term use of very high dose isolates that do not occur with whole foods or whole food suppplements. I would suggest sticking to whole food supplemtents unless you have a particular case where you think isolated aa will be helpful and if so only use it short term. Look into information on Szent-Gyorgy, the scientist who isolated ascorbic acid. He did not believe in using it inits isolated form. One must realize that it is about the synergy, not the numbers. A much smaller amount of ascorbic acid can be better utilzed when it has its co factors then in a larger form in isolate form. If one can't get past the numbers, you can always use Camu Camu or amla. These substances have very high amounts of ascorbic acid along with the co factors. I wonder what the effects of mega dosing these would be? Even if you are using isolate forms, why not include large doses of bioflavanoids, tyrosinase (can be islaoted from mushrooms)? Hope this helps. I'm not trying to stir up a debate, only tring to instill more thoughts on the subject. There is a place for the long term use of whole food supplements and also a place for careful use of isolates. Beware, most ascorbic acid found on the market is synthetic. Most of it comes from the same sources and drug comapnies like Hoffman La Roche dominate this industry. I'm sure you have all heard the term Nutraceutical by now. Theres a reason for that term. Sounds a lot like pharmaceutical huh. While there is certainly money to be made in whole foods supplements, there is much more to be made in synthetic isolated nutraceuticals.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12313
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: I can clear up the Vitamin C versus Ascorbic Acid Confus

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:01 am

I think this is one of the better arguments (but what a long paragraph!). I do have a few bones to pick...

NaturopathMan wrote:Vitamin C complex and Ascorbic Acid are clearly two different things. Isolates do not occur in nature. Not only AA, but all vitamins are complexes.


AA, in fact, does occur in nature as an isolate - chemical shorthand is C6H8O6 . Every animal liver (some lower level species kidneys) produces this "isolate" 24/7, save us, the guinea pig, a fruit bat and some parrots.


I also don't agree that "all vitamins are complexes" because there is little or no scientific evidence. My thoughts are published at
http://vitamincfoundation.org/NaturalC.htm

In nature, things always work in synergy. You can view the differences btween vitamin C complex, synthetic ascorbic acid and naturally derived ascorbic acid under a high powered microscope. I suggest that you do this for yourselves if you have access to the equipment.


Water looks different under a microscope, depending on temperature and other factors. Yes, a vitamin complex would look different, it is made up of different substances, The real question is whether these additional substances are good to ingest and promote better health. As one example, as discussed here previously, the bioflavonoid quercetin has various properties, but many of these are quite "drug like" and may cause gout and pain in the joints at high dosages. (Quercetin may have anti-viral properties too.) It is a natural substance, but not necessarily orthomolecular in the sense Linus Pauling coined the term.

Does this mean that isolated ascorbic acid has no medicinal use? Of course not, it has many uses. Just keep in mind that when you use it this way you are not using it as a nutrient but as an isolate, more like a natural drug. This is why it has a much quicker and stronger effect than a whole food complex. Nature buffers things and does things in moderation so that there won't be side effects. This can be seen in the comparison of drugs and the herbs that contain the same drug like substance. Ascorbic acid, especially in large doses has a diferent physiological effect on the body than whole food vitamin C complex.


There is truth in this statement, and the "different physiological effect" would also be true if the whole food vitamin complex fails as vitamin C completely - to cure scurvy. The entire point of this forum is that the "vitamin C complex" is undefined. There is no standard definition. We support the idea to eat whole, raw foods for the nutrients and enzymes. However, if you are going to supplement, what are you getting from a "complex? " We'd all like to know!


The uses of isolates like AA can have incredible medicinal effects if used properly in the short term. The problem is when you use these things over long periods, usually more than 2 or 3 months. What happens is that because a vitamin is a complex it can only be utilized with all the co factors, enzymes etc. The body can usually provide these things and in the short term it is not a problem but over time the body will not be able to provide sufficient amounts of these co factors and problems can arise. Deficiencies of the co factors can easily occur. Larges does of zinc over extended periods can induce a copper deficiency. Large doses of ascorbic acid over long periods of time can induce a bioflavaniod or tyrosinase (a form of copper) deficiencies.


I'd appreciate references on this, as we have tried to follow this "rumor" about copper deficiency before, to no avail. (And why don't animals suffer constant copper deficiency or "tryosinase" deficiency?)

By the way, if this were really true, I would be in serious trouble, having followed Pauling's advice now for more than 20 years by taking between 15,000 and 20,000 mg of the isolated ascorbic acid daily.


There can be side effects that may not be connected to the use of the isolate. For example, I know of a patient who was using large doses of IV ascorbic acid for a medical treatment for many months. The therapy was useful but the patient began to suddenly get varicose veins on his legs and broken blood vessels on his face. I would guess that this was because there were not adequate bioflavanoids given along with the ascorbic acid but there may have been another cause. The point is there can be side effects with long term use of very high dose isolates that do not occur with whole foods or whole food suppplements.


Hopefully the patient was getting sodium ascorbate, and again, as discussed, very high vitamin C IV is a short-term treatment for viral infections. Even Dr. Cathcart relies on oral vitamin C for extended usage.

I would suggest sticking to whole food supplemtents unless you have a particular case where you think isolated aa will be helpful and if so only use it short term.


In my opinion, w/r to vitamin C, this is bad advice and does not account for the genetic defect in humans (high-order primates, fruit bats, guinea pigs, etc.) that creates the condition known as cardiovascular disease. You can not overcome cardiovascular disease using natural complex C - even if you could afford it.

Look into information on Szent-Gyorgy, the scientist who isolated ascorbic acid. He did not believe in using it inits isolated form.


THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. Please provide the reference AFTER the 1937 Nobel Lecture that supports this assertion. Yes, early on, Dr. Gyorgy and everyone else had no idea what vitamin C really was and published various ideas. They were in the process of discovery.

One must realize that it is about the synergy, not the numbers. A much smaller amount of ascorbic acid can be better utilzed when it has its co factors then in a larger form in isolate form.


Where is the evidence of this? In fact, as discussed here, the Eskimos get their needed ascorbate from organs, usually adrenal glands. To my knowledge, the ascorbic acid in adrenal glands and organs contains NO complex.

If one can't get past the numbers, you can always use Camu Camu or amla. These substances have very high amounts of ascorbic acid along with the co factors. I wonder what the effects of mega dosing these would be? Even if you are using isolate forms, why not include large doses of bioflavanoids, tyrosinase (can be islaoted from mushrooms)?


Because these substances are NOT vitamins. High dosages of these substances can be dangerous.

Hope this helps. I'm not trying to stir up a debate, only tring to instill more thoughts on the subject. There is a place for the long term use of whole food supplements and also a place for careful use of isolates. Beware, most ascorbic acid found on the market is synthetic. Most of it comes from the same sources and drug comapnies like Hoffman La Roche dominate this industry. I'm sure you have all heard the term Nutraceutical by now. Theres a reason for that term. Sounds a lot like pharmaceutical huh. While there is certainly money to be made in whole foods supplements, there is much more to be made in synthetic isolated nutraceuticals.


Thank you for your contribution! I am most interested in the references on copper deficiency from high ascorbate intake.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

Ralph Lotz
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 1047
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:52 pm
Location: Lombard, IL
Contact:

ROCHE is out of the vitamin Business

Post Number:#6  Post by Ralph Lotz » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:44 pm

Roche sold out to a Dutch company DSM.
Drugs are more profitable.

Isolates do occur in nature.
Example: How about elements.

You have confused what something is with what might make something work better.
Synergy is two or more different things creating a result greater than their mere sums.
B/T/W Tyrosinase can't exist in the first place without ascorbic acid.
If vitamins couldn't be isolated, then we wouldn't even know what they are.

Pernicious anemia is a B12 deficiency resulting from a lack of intrinsic factor in the stomach. B12 is the one and only cure that must be administered subligually or IM.
If there is a B12 complex, please enlighten me.
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

NaturopathMan

Post Number:#7  Post by NaturopathMan » Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:17 pm

Roche sold out to a Dutch company DSM.
Drugs are more profitable. This is true, I think it was 2002.

Isolates do occur in nature.
Example: How about elements?

Vitamins occur in complexes, if fact even animal sources are in a complex form to my knowledge although I will have to look into that. Minerals are not complexes in themselves but always occur in combinations with other minerlas. My point was that nature puts certain things together for a reason. It may not always be exactly the same. Mushrooms and potatoes have an especially high level of tyrosinase compared to other foods high in vitamin C. I don't clain to understand all the combinations that Mother Nature chooses, that's why I use whole food supplements and use isolates cautiously.

You have confused what something is with what might make something work better.
Synergy is two or more different things creating a result greater than their mere sums.

My main point was in saying that the synergy is what makes things work better. So how can you know better than nature? It is such a complex arrangement of so many different chemicals, some of which we don't even know are there.
I don't think the complex that vitamin C is found in is always in the sam e ratios, but as far as I know certain other substances are always there. And there are also

Pernicious anemia is a B12 deficiency resulting from a lack of intrinsic factor in the stomach. B12 is the one and only cure that must be administered subligually or IM.
If there is a B12 complex, please enlighten me.

Well the complex is vitamin B itself, alll these B vitamins occur together in nature. The problem is that we haven't isolated everything. In Europe they use B-13 and B-15 which the FDA doesn't recognize.

Vitamin B-15



AKA: calcium pangamate, Dimethylglycine

Dimethylglycine (DMG)dimethylglycine (or trimethylglycine), Pangamic acid, Anhydrous Betaine. It was mostly researched in the former Soviet Union. It is believe to help oxygen absorpsion, aiding with heart problems, stress, cancer, and premature aging. The Russians used it primarily to increase the performance of their olympic athletes. It is very controversial and is not officially recognized in the United States. Later researchers referenced diisopropylamine dichloroacetate as being "vitamin B15", either believing it to be an alternate chemical form with the same properties, or a more accurate isolation of the chemical.

It is the active nutrient behind B-15, calcium pangamate, or pangamic acid. It is an intermediary metabolite that is useful in the production of neurotransmitters, hormones, DNA, choline, and methionine. It enhances the immune response system, and helps normalize blood glucose levels and reduce high blood pressure levels. It enhances oxygen utilization, reduces lactic acid formation, and aids detoxification- improving liver, pancreas, and adrenal function. In 1960 Russia reported DMG benefited people suffering from diabetes, alcoholism, mental disorders, and cardiovascular ailments. Also, DMG enhanced athletic performance, as demonstrated by the Olympics.

B15 is not recognized by the US Drug Administration. Most of the research being done on it is out of the USSR. Other names for it include: pangamic acid, calcium pangamate, sodium pangamate, dimethylglycine/DMG, trimethylglycine/TMG. The terms "B15" and "pangamic acid" are sometimes used for diisopropylamine dichloroacetate. Pangamic acid is a natural substance that was first prepared from apricot pits and later from rice, liver, blood, and yeast. Little is known about its role at the molecular level although scientists in Europe and the Soviet Union have recorded enhanced oxygen uptake in response to strenuous exercise ,and it appears to have anitoxidant properites. Soviet studies also indicate that it protects against urban pollutants, stimulates immune responses, relieves some asthma symptoms, and lowers blood cholesterol levels. Because of the above physiologic effects, it has been designated as a B vitamin, but there is no "official" evidence recognized in the Western countries that its lack in the diet results in any deficiency disease -- one of the requirements for it to be officially recognized as a vitamin.

History:
Vitamin B15H8 is a specific form of Vitamin B15

Synergist:
it needs other B vitamins, as well as Vitamins C and E in order to function

NaturopathMan

Good comments and Questions

Post Number:#8  Post by NaturopathMan » Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:50 pm

NaturopathMan wrote:Vitamin C complex and Ascorbic Acid are clearly two different things. Isolates do not occur in nature. Not only AA, but all vitamins are complexes.


AA, in fact, does occur in nature as an isolate - chemical shorthand is C6H8O6 . Every animal liver (some lower level species kidneys) produces this "isolate" 24/7, save us, the guinea pig, a fruit bat and some parrots.
HGow do we know that the other factos aren't presnt there too?


I also don't agree that "all vitamins are complexes" because there is little or no scientific evidence. My thoughts are published at
http://vitamincfoundation.org/NaturalC.htm
Thise area does need more research and I think we will see more soon. Vitamin E is also being viewed as a complex and many think the tocopherols are not even the most important part.

In nature, things always work in synergy. You can view the differences btween vitamin C complex, synthetic ascorbic acid and naturally derived ascorbic acid under a high powered microscope. I suggest that you do this for yourselves if you have access to the equipment.


Water looks different under a microscope, depending on temperature and other factors. Yes, a vitamin complex would look different, it is made up of different substances, The real question is whether these additional substances are good to ingest and promote better health. As one example, as discussed here previously, the bioflavonoid quercetin has various properties, but many of these are quite "drug like" and may cause gout and pain in the joints at high dosages. (Quercetin may have anti-viral properties too.) It is a natural substance, but not necessarily orthomolecular in the sense Linus Pauling coined the term.
I see your reasoning but what is it about the substances associated with AA that you don;t thinka re good for us?

Does this mean that isolated ascorbic acid has no medicinal use? Of course not, it has many uses. Just keep in mind that when you use it this way you are not using it as a nutrient but as an isolate, more like a natural drug. This is why it has a much quicker and stronger effect than a whole food complex. Nature buffers things and does things in moderation so that there won't be side effects. This can be seen in the comparison of drugs and the herbs that contain the same drug like substance. Ascorbic acid, especially in large doses has a diferent physiological effect on the body than whole food vitamin C complex.




The uses of isolates like AA can have incredible medicinal effects if used properly in the short term. The problem is when you use these things over long periods, usually more than 2 or 3 months. What happens is that because a vitamin is a complex it can only be utilized with all the co factors, enzymes etc. The body can usually provide these things and in the short term it is not a problem but over time the body will not be able to provide sufficient amounts of these co factors and problems can arise. Deficiencies of the co factors can easily occur. Larges does of zinc over extended periods can induce a copper deficiency. Large doses of ascorbic acid over long periods of time can induce a bioflavaniod or tyrosinase (a form of copper) deficiencies.


I'd appreciate references on this, as we have tried to follow this "rumor" about copper deficiency before, to no avail. (And why don't animals suffer constant copper deficiency or "tryosinase" deficiency?)

Vitamin C

Although vitamin C supplements have produced copper deficiency in laboratory animals, the effect of vitamin C supplements on copper nutritional status in humans is less clear. Two small studies in healthy young adult men indicate that the oxidase activity of ceruloplasmin may be impaired by relatively high doses of supplemental vitamin C. In one study, vitamin C supplementation of 1,500 mg/day for 2 months resulted in a significant decline in ceruloplasmin oxidase activity (7). In the other study, supplements of 605 mg of vitamin C/day for 3 weeks resulted in decreased ceruloplasmin oxidase activity, although copper absorption did not decline (8). Neither of these studies found vitamin C supplementation to adversely affect copper nutritional status.
This is from the Linus Pauling Institute at OSU. I don't think it's proven in humans, just something to be cautious about. I've come across other references on this and see if I can find them.

By the way, if this were really true, I would be in serious trouble, having followed Pauling's advice now for more than 20 years by taking between 15,000 and 20,000 mg of the isolated ascorbic acid daily.




I would suggest sticking to whole food supplemtents unless you have a particular case where you think isolated aa will be helpful and if so only use it short term.


In my opinion, w/r to vitamin C, this is bad advice and does not account for the genetic defect in humans (high-order primates, fruit bats, guinea pigs, etc.) that creates the condition known as cardiovascular disease. You can not overcome cardiovascular disease using natural complex C - even if you could afford it.

I don't believe that this is a "genetic defect" but merely nature using its resources wisely. Primates and guinea pigs consume thousands of milligrams in their daily diets so wouldn't it be wise for nature to allocate its limited resources elswhere? A deficiency of AA can't really be called the cause of cardiovascular disease even if it helps the situation once there is a disease state. Cardiovascular disease does not exist in primates on a wild diet.

Look into information on Szent-Gyorgy, the scientist who isolated ascorbic acid. He did not believe in using it inits isolated form.


THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. Please provide the reference AFTER the 1937 Nobel Lecture that supports this assertion. Yes, early on, Dr. Gyorgy and everyone else had no idea what vitamin C really was and published various ideas. They were in the process of discovery.
Apparently he wanted to return his noble prize afterwards but I certainly can't prove that and it may be a rumor. I'll try to find some concrete references.




Where is the evidence of this? In fact, as discussed here, the Eskimos get their needed ascorbate from organs, usually adrenal glands. To my knowledge, the ascorbic acid in adrenal glands and organs contains NO complex.
I'll look more into the actual content of the glandular sources of vitamin c, aa ect.
Royal Lee often spoke of vitamin c complex and was a fond user of adrenal and other glandulars so I'm pretty sure he felt that the glands contained these other elements. I'll check his research and anyone elses research I can find.

If one can't get past the numbers, you can always use Camu Camu or amla. These substances have very high amounts of ascorbic acid along with the co factors. I wonder what the effects of mega dosing these would be? Even if you are using isolate forms, why not include large doses of bioflavanoids, tyrosinase (can be islaoted from mushrooms)?


Because these substances are NOT vitamins. High dosages of these substances can be dangerous.
They contain vitamins. Where is the proof that there is any harmful effects of these substances? Native people have used them for thousands of years.

You've raised some excellent issues. I am always interested in using AA or whole food sources of it for wellness and disease. If I use AA, I just want to use it as safely and logically as possible so any suggestions are welcome.

NaturopathMan

Post Number:#9  Post by NaturopathMan » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:32 am

Quote:

One must realize that it is about the synergy, not the numbers. A much smaller amount of ascorbic acid can be better utilzed when it has its co factors then in a larger form in isolate form.



Where is the evidence of this? In fact, as discussed here, the Eskimos get their needed ascorbate from organs, usually adrenal glands. To my knowledge, the ascorbic acid in adrenal glands and organs contains NO complex.

Here is one study

Vitamin C

35% better absorbed in a natural citrus extract containing bioflavanoids, proteins, and carbohydrates than as synthetic ascorbic acid alone (Vinson JA, Bose P. Comparative bioavailability to humans of ascorbic acid alone or in a citrus extract. Am J Clin Nutr 48:601-04, 1988)

To me that says you can use 35% less of a natural compound to get the same amount of AA as a synthetic isolate. Of course, you are not getting the other natural food chemicals with the isolate that may have other benefits than just absorption.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12313
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Good Response

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:23 am

Thank you for your reasoned response! We appreciate it, but one or two comments need to be clarified.

I don't believe that this is a "genetic defect" but merely nature using its resources wisely.


What ever you call it, we don't make vitamin C, and virtually every other living thing, especially animal, does. They identified the mutation in one gene in 1957, a mutation that does not exist in other animals. This mutation prevents us from producing an enzyme. This long-winded enzyme (GULO for short) would complete a 4 step process, which other animals use to convert glucose to ascorbic acid. See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract


Primates and guinea pigs consume thousands of milligrams in their daily diets so wouldn't it be wise for nature to allocate its limited resources elswhere? A deficiency of AA can't really be called the cause of cardiovascular disease even if it helps the situation once there is a disease state. Cardiovascular disease does not exist in primates on a wild diet.


Your argument makes a nice argument for evolution, however, why do so few species allocate their limited resources elsewhere?

More importantly, the argument seems to be that because primates avoid heart disease on a wild diet, (This may or may not be true - cardiovascular disease is generally hidden, and would not be found without autoopsy) that AA can't really be called the cause of cardiovascular disease, is not entirely logical.

The essence of the Pauling/Rath (and now Levy) unified theory is that, yes indeed, the entire problem of cardiovascular disease has, at its root, a localized scurvy in the arterial wall.

Now, guinea pigs deprived of vitamin C can easily be made to exhibit this disease, as was well established and published by Willis in the 1950s. See our posts at http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs

And, we have discussed here for more than one year that less C is required on natural diets high in omega-3s, etc. The vitamin can more easily enter cells, so less is apparently required. But this has little relevance to modern diets consumed by millions of people.

Said another way, show me a person who consumes 10,000 mg or more of vitamin C daily, for more than one year, and I'll show you a person who exhibits no evidence of cardiovascular disease. I have not found or heard of a counter example. A person who consumes more than 10,000 mg who has any form of heart disease.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

desolation
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:34 am
Contact:

Post Number:#11  Post by desolation » Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:02 pm

I have a few observations/questions as well-

naturopathman
My main point was in saying that the synergy is what makes things work better. So how can you know better than nature? It is such a complex arrangement of so many different chemicals, some of which we don't even know are there.
I don't think the complex that vitamin C is found in is always in the sam e ratios, but as far as I know certain other substances are always there.

One must realize that it is about the synergy, not the numbers. A much smaller amount of ascorbic acid can be better utilzed when it has its co factors then in a larger form in isolate form.

Where is the evidence of this? In fact, as discussed here, the Eskimos get their needed ascorbate from organs, usually adrenal glands. To my knowledge, the ascorbic acid in adrenal glands and organs contains NO complex.

Here is one study

Vitamin C

35% better absorbed in a natural citrus extract containing bioflavanoids, proteins, and carbohydrates than as synthetic ascorbic acid alone (Vinson JA, Bose P. Comparative bioavailability to humans of ascorbic acid alone or in a citrus extract. Am J Clin Nutr 48:601-04, 1988)

To me that says you can use 35% less of a natural compound to get the same amount of AA as a synthetic isolate. Of course, you are not getting the other natural food chemicals with the isolate that may have other benefits than just absorption.



There are some studies showing increased absorption of AA with citrus extract though even that should raise concern as it is an extract and hence not technically in its so called synergistic natural state. Furthermore, the study used AA and enhanced its absorption with bioflavinod extract-there was never any "natural" vitamin c used. Nevertheless, there are studies in wich AA was as well absorbed alone as with citrus or whole food:

The bioavailability to humans of ascorbic acid from oranges, orange juice and cooked broccoli is similar to that of synthetic ascorbic acid.

Mangels AR, Block G, Frey CM, Patterson BH, Taylor PR, Norkus EP, Levander OA.

Vitamin and Mineral Nutrition Laboratory, Beltsville Human Nutrition Research Center, MD 20705.

The relative bioavailability of ascorbic acid from several sources was compared in 68 male non-smokers. Subjects underwent two 8-wk ascorbic acid depletion-repletion cycles. In repletion, subjects were randomized to receive 108 mg/d ascorbic acid as tablets with or without iron, as orange segments or juice, or as raw or cooked broccoli with a crossover within each major treatment group (e.g., cooked to raw broccoli) for the second repletion. Relative ascorbic acid bioavailability was estimated based on the slope obtained from linear regression of plasma ascorbic acid on time during each repletion. In the first repletion, slopes for all groups were similar except for the group consuming raw broccoli (20% lower response, P < 0.01). Second repletion responses were attenuated, but were similar to the first repletion. Ascorbic acid ingested as cooked broccoli, orange juice or fruit, or in synthetic form seems to be equally bioavailable. The lower relative bioavailability of ascorbic acid from raw broccoli is unlikely to be of practical importance in mixed diets.



Comparative bioavailability of folate and vitamin C from a synthetic and a natural source.

* Nelson EW,
* Streiff RR,
* Cerda JJ.

Intraluminal perfusion of the human small intestine has not been used extensively to study comparative bioavailability of vitamins. In this study a triple lumen tube with a 30-cm study segment was used to measure absorption of water-soluble vitamins from the human proximal jejunum. Fifteen normal subjects served as their own controls to quantitate absorption of folic acid and vitamin C from an orange juice solution and from a solution of synthetic vitamins. Despite a predictably greater water absorption from the glucose containing orange juice solution, the absorption of the two water-soluble vitamins did not differ significantly from the two solutions. Natural and synthetic ascorbate and folate were avidly absorbed in the first 30 cm of jejunum and with the exception of synthetic folate correlated positively with water absorption. This method, previously applied to the absorption of sugars, amino acids, and electrolytes, can be reliably applied to the study of comparative bioavailability of nutrients from food sources. The advantages of triple lumen perfusion over previous methods are: 1) it overcomes the necessity for urine collections in metabolic studies, 2) it can be used to study sites and mechanism of absorption, and 3) it is a direct measurement of absorption capacity.


This study showed no increae in absorption with bioflavonoids, though I cant find the abstract.
Johnston CS, Luo B. Comparison of the absorption and excretion of three commercially available sources of vitamin C. J Am Diet Assoc. 1994;94(7):779-781.


And from the study cited above- 35% better absorbed in a natural citrus extract containing bioflavanoids, proteins, and carbohydrates than as synthetic ascorbic acid alone (Vinson JA, Bose P. Comparative bioavailability to humans of ascorbic acid alone or in a citrus extract. Am J Clin Nutr 48:601-04, 1988) we get the following:

"Although natural and synthetic ascorbic acids are chemically identical, citrus fruits contain bioflavonoids such as naringin and hesperidin as well as carbohydrates and proteins that might affect the bioavailability."


We also know that other substances can increase absorption of AA such as Aloe Vera:


Effect of Aloe vera preparations on the human bioavailability of vitamins C and E.

* Vinson JA,
* Al Kharrat H,
* Andreoli L.

Department of Chemistry, University of Scranton, Scranton, PA, 18510 4626, USA. vinson@scranton.edu
The results indicate that the Aloes improve the absorption of both vitamins C (as ascorbic acid) and E. The absorption is slower and the vitamins last longer in the plasma with the Aloes. Aloe is the only known supplement to increase the absorption of both of these vitamins and should be considered as a complement to them.



So, in light of these things we learn that we can encrease the absorption of ascorbic acid most likley by consuming it with food that contains a wide variety of nutrients "bioflavonoids. . . as well as carbohydrates and proteins" and if one is taking smaller amounts of AA throughout the day to meet their requierments then this is just not a problem. Also, if natural vitamin c were to have a 35% increased absorption (wich we know now is not what the study showed scince they used AA) then you would only need to consume 6500 mgs a day instead of 10000 if you want to consume close to what the rest of the animal kingdom synthesizes.

On another note, it has yet to be shown that whatever nature created and with whatever its complexes might be that it was meant specificaly for predators to consume. We evolved to garner certain nutrients from food that we discovered would keep us alive or provide energy or heal a sickness, food-as we call it for certainly you cant beleive the antelope or the ant or even a blade of grass has only the objective of making sure they produce a nice juicy and nutritious feast for its enemies- did not evolve solely to exactly meet our needs and in fact has developed mechanisms in wich to ward off predators to protect themselves. And there has to be some limit to the complex, synergistic, whole, stumbling block as even herbalists do not use the whole herb as certain parts are toxic and other parts dont contain any healing value.

Dan106
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Ascorbic Acid versus Natural Vitamin C and C-complex

Post Number:#12  Post by Dan106 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:50 pm

I am fairly new to the forum and find it fascinating that so many people are interested in natural cures involving vitamins, minerals, herbs etc. along with a good diet and exercise. As mentioned elsewhere I had quadruple heart bypass surgery on 7/24/2013 and recently became very interested in the work done by Dr. Linus Pauling and Dr. Mathias Rath and others along with the Nobel Prize won by Pauling for "The CURE of heart disease".

I was well aware of his book on vitamin C and common cold, however did not know (until recently) about the "Unified Theory" of heart disease (vs.) the medical establishment's "Lipid Theory" and the repression of any information out there that someone could eat right and take supplements including vitamin C to cure heart disease. I am well aware of the Pharmaceutical establishment repressing any and all information on any cure for anything that they cannot patent and turn into a DRUG.

In light of taking mega doses of Vitamin C (I am now on 8000 to 9000 mg Vit C, 5000 mg Lysine and 1500 Proline) along with a host of other supplements including B-complex, vitamin E etc.), I am curious what FORM of vitamin C is best to follow for positive results of keeping arteries clear and possibly unclogging existing clogged arteries.

I have read about ascorbic acid, C-salts and Liposomal vitamin C. The differences appear to be of digestibility, tolerance, and ease of absorption. I THINK?? that Dr. Pauling used powdered ascorbic acid and apparently did well on it.

I am currently on ascorbic acid 1000 mg capsules as I found the tablets too big and easy to get caught in your throat unless you take them with milk or something similar. If taken with water, they seem to get hung up half way down the throat.

Dan Wafer

http://diabetescureorcontrol.blogspot.com/

davids1
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:47 pm
Location: Portland, OR [previously posted as davids]
Contact:

Re: Ascorbic Acid versus Natural Vitamin C and C-complex

Post Number:#13  Post by davids1 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:32 pm

Dan106 wrote:...the Nobel Prize won by Pauling for "The CURE of heart disease"

I am curious what FORM of vitamin C is best to follow for positive results of keeping arteries clear and possibly unclogging existing clogged arteries.

I am currently on ascorbic acid 1000 mg capsules as I found the tablets too big and easy to get caught in your throat unless you take them with milk or something similar. If taken with water, they seem to get hung up half way down the throat.
Hi Dan,

As "grist for your mill:"

Linus Pauling was the only man in history to win two [unshared] Nobel Prizes, but unfortunately [for mankind] "The CURE of heart disease" was not the cause of/for either of them.

The mineral ascorbates, gram-for-gram, are only one-half as potent as hydrogen ascorbate, i.e. ascorbic acid. The following words from Dr. Robert Cathcart, M.D. [the man with more clinical experience "mega-dosing" (over 25,000) patients with ascorbic acid than anyone who has ever lived] are instructive, "I have not been able to achieve the ascorbate effect with mineral ascorbates orally....the mineral ascorbates are not potent enough to accomplish the ascorbate effect." You can go here http://vitamincfoundation.org/esterc.htm for more information.

I generally swallow six 1,000 milligram tablets at a time [and have (successfully) swallowed up to twelve at one time], and offer you this advice: Take a large gulp of water, tilt your head back, so that the tablet(s) get to the back of the mouth, and then swallow [with your head still tilted back]. I have no problems whatsoever if I faithfully follow that routine. I do [unfortunately] know from personal experience, however, that it is easy to get in to a rush, and either not take a big enough gulp of water and/or not wait for the tablets to get to the back of the mouth.

I hope that helps, Dan [and welcome to the forum],

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

Cbester Copperpot
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:53 am
Contact:

Re: ROCHE is out of the vitamin Business

Post Number:#14  Post by Cbester Copperpot » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:09 am

Ralph Lotz wrote:Roche sold out to a Dutch company DSM.
Drugs are more profitable.

Isolates do occur in nature.
Example: How about elements.

You have confused what something is with what might make something work better.
Synergy is two or more different things creating a result greater than their mere sums.
B/T/W Tyrosinase can't exist in the first place without ascorbic acid.
If vitamins couldn't be isolated, then we wouldn't even know what they are.

Pernicious anemia is a B12 deficiency resulting from a lack of intrinsic factor in the stomach. B12 is the one and only cure that must be administered subligually or IM.
If there is a B12 complex, please enlighten me.


B-12 needs cobalt to be B-12.

ofonorow
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard
Posts: 12313
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Lisle, IL
Contact:

Re: Ascorbic Acid versus Natural Vitamin C and C-complex

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:10 am

Thanks for hi-lighting Ralph Lotz's excellent analysis, but I don't follow

B-12 needs cobalt to be B-12.


And I believe a part of the B12 molecule is cyanide. Are we getting into chemistry?

This is not the B12 foundation, but a visit to wikipedia.org was illuminating.


B12 is the largest and most structurally complicated vitamin and can be produced industrially only through a bacterial fermentation-synthesis.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

A common semi-synthetic form of the vitamin is cyanocobalamin, which doesn't occur in nature and is produced from bacterial hydroxocobalamin. Because of its stability and lower production cost, this form is used in many pharmaceuticals and supplements as well as a food additive. In the body it is converted into the human physiological forms methylcobalamin and 5'-deoxyadenosylcobalamin, leaving a cyanide ion, (CN−), albeit in a minimal concentration.[citation needed] Recently, hydroxocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin are being found in more expensive pharmacological products and food supplements;[citation needed] but their extra utility is currently debated.


So I stand corrected. For reasons of economy, the cyanide version of B12 is common, but not the natural vitamin.. Interesting! One could argue this form is not orthomolecular!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”


Return to “Ascorbic Acid versus Vitamin C Complex”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests