Vitamin c garden

What is vitamin C? Is there such a thing as a vitamin C complex? Why do so many people now believe in the complex?

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sweetjames
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Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#1  Post by sweetjames » Sun May 16, 2010 4:46 pm

It is best to get vitamin c through the food we eat, opposed to taking it all by suplement, so i thought i would list some home grown foods that are very high in vitamin c.-- Citrus fruits, ofcourse, strawberries, cantaloupe, tomatos, green peppers, broccoli, and leafy green vegetables. Watermelon, raspberries, papaya, mango cauliflower brussel sprouts, cabbage, red peppers and winter squash, all excellent sources of vitamin c

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#2  Post by Steve Brown » Mon May 17, 2010 1:14 pm

To that list I would add the potato. Although not exceptionally high in vitamin C, some of the vitamin C it contains is likely to be potassium ascorbate, a form that is readily taken up by cells. The potato is also a natural source of alpha lipoic acid, a potent antioxidant that is both water and fat soluble. Alpha lipoic acid converts oxidized vitamin C, vitamin E, and glutathione back to their reduced forms. The potency of alpha lipoic acid was demonstrated in a study in which it prevented scurvy in guinea pigs fed a diet deficient in vitamin C. I think taking supplemental ascorbic acid with high-potassium foods such as potatoes and bananas results in the conversion of some ascorbic acid to potassium ascorbate in the digestive tract.

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#3  Post by sweetjames » Mon May 17, 2010 3:21 pm

Very interesting, potatos are definitely worth planting in the garden. A average potato (5.3 oz) with the skin, contains around 50 percent of the daily value for vitamin c, also 620 mg potassium, comparable to banana's, spinach, and broccoli, and trace amounts of thiamin, riboflavin, folate, magnesium, phosphorous, iron and zinc, all this and only 110 calories and no fat, along with the interesting facts steve pointed out id say the potato is an important one on the list to plant. Good stuff Steve

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#4  Post by Lemonaid » Mon May 17, 2010 4:26 pm

...contains around 50 percent of the daily value for vitamin c

So like all of 30 milligrams?

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#5  Post by Van Carman » Tue May 18, 2010 6:54 am

An old remedy for arthritis is a raw potato cut into slivers and soaked in water overnight.In the morning drink the juice.Thanks,Van
cinnamon and scurvy

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#6  Post by sweetjames » Sat May 22, 2010 3:52 pm

The Dandelion is thought of as a pesky weed by most gardeners, but in fact,this leafy green has been used by traditional chinese medicine as a powerful Liver tonic. Dandelion is said to enhance the flow of bile in your body, improving the function of your Liver. A daily cup of dandelion tea is recommended for anyone who feels run down, sluggish, and over stressed. Aside from its herbal merits, dandelion are also an incredibly healthy food, full of vitamin c, higher in beta-carotene than carrots and richer in iron and calcium content than spinach. Try tossing a few raw dandelion leaves in your salad to add some flavor, the bigger leaves are a bit bitter tasting, boil in water for around 45 seconds to soften the bitterness, or saute them for about 15 minutes with onions and garlic in olive oil. Getting your supplements naturally is always a good thing.

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Sun May 23, 2010 3:55 am

sweetjames wrote:It is best to get vitamin c through the food we eat, opposed to taking it all by suplement, so i thought i would list some home grown foods that are very high in vitamin c.-- Citrus fruits, ofcourse, strawberries, cantaloupe, tomatos, green peppers, broccoli, and leafy green vegetables. Watermelon, raspberries, papaya, mango cauliflower brussel sprouts, cabbage, red peppers and winter squash, all excellent sources of vitamin c


I challenge the assertion that "It is best to get vitamin c through the food we eat." What do you base that on? How do you know how much you are getting, and whether it is biologically active? (Vitamin C is the most reactive vitamin, and that is why it was so hard to isolate.) And what about the toxins (e.g. pesticides) that may co-exist in the food?

Sure it makes sense to consume foods high in vitamin C, no argument there, the argument is with the idea that food is the best way to get vitamin C.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#8  Post by sweetjames » Sun May 23, 2010 1:27 pm

Natural health professionals agree that humans should not try to consume petroleum derivatives or hydrogenated sugars, most seem to over look this fact when vitamin supplementation is involved. For decades the natural health industry has been touting thousands of vitamin supplements. The truth is that most vitamins in supplements are made or processed with petroleum derivatives or hydrogenated sugars, even though they are often called natural, most non-food vitamins are isolated substances which are crystalline in structure, vitamins naturally in food are not crystalline and never isolated. Vitamins found in any real food are chemically and structurally differnt from those commonly found in natural vitamin formulas. Since they are different, naturopaths should consider non-food vitamins as vitamin analogues (imitations) and not actually vitamins. According to mainstream science, vitamins are organic substances that are essential in small amounts for the health, growth, reproduction, and maintenance of one or more animal species, which must be included in the diet since they cannot be synthesized at all or in sufficient quantity in the body. Each vitamin performs a specific function, hence one cannot replace another. Vitamins originate primarily in plant tissues. Isolated non-food vitamins (often called natural or USP or Pharmaceutical grade) are not naturally "included in the diet" do not necessarily "originate primarily in plant tissues". and cannot fully replace all natural vitamin activities. Most vitamins in supplements are petroleum extracts, coal tar derivatives, and chemically processed sugar(plus sometimes industrially processed fish oils) with other acids and industrial chemicals (such as formaldehyde) used to process them. Synthetic vitamins were originally developed because they cost less. Assuming the non-food product does not contain fish oils, most synthetic, petroleum-derived, supplements will call their products "vegetarian" not because they are from plants, but because they are not from animals. There is no mandated definition of the term "natural" just seeing that term on a label does not mean that the supplement contains only natural food substances. Lets look at our favorite for now, Vitamin C, even if one were to take 3 times as much of the so-called natural non-food, ascorbic acid than food vitamin c, although the antioxidant effects might be similar, the ascorbic acid still does not contain DHAA, nor will it ever have negative oxidative reductive potential. Research with a digital ORP meter demonstrated that a citrus food vitamin c has negative ORP, but that ascorbic acid had positive ORP. It takes negative ORP to clean up oxidative damage, and since ascorbic has positive ORP(as well as positive redox potential) it can never replace food vitamin c no matter what the quantity! Futher more, foods which are high in vitamin c tend to have high Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity ( ORAC, another test which measures the ability of foods and other compounds to subdue oxygen free radicals). A US government study compared the effects of a high vitamin c food (containing 80 mg vitamin c) compared to about 15.6 times as much isolated ascorbic acid(1250 mg) found that the vitamin c-containing food produced the greatest increase in blood antioxidant levels. No matter how much isolated ascorbic acid one takes orally, it will never saturate plasma and/or tissue vitamin c levels significantly more than can be obtained by consuming sufficient vitamin c containing foods. It will never have negative ORP, thus can never "clean-up" oxidative damage like food vitamin c can. It will never have the free radical fighting capacity of food vitamin c. It will never contain DHAA(the other half of vitamin c) or the promoting food factors. It will never have the same effect on health issues, such as aging and cardiovascular disease as high vitamin c foods can. It will not ever be utilized the way food vitamin c is. It will always be a Synthetic. It is good to take supplements, i take 10,000 mg vitamin c a day, but getting vitamins in your food is best.

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#9  Post by Lemonaid » Sun May 23, 2010 4:46 pm

Sweetjames. Thanks for posting bullsh!t that's been certifiably debunked. We can start with the whole "natural vitamin c" vs "synthetic".

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Mon May 24, 2010 3:43 am

sweetjames wrote:Natural health professionals agree that humans should not try to consume petroleum derivatives or hydrogenated sugars, most seem to over look this fact when vitamin supplementation is involved. For decades the natural health industry has been touting thousands of vitamin supplements. The truth is that most vitamins in supplements are made or processed with petroleum derivatives or hydrogenated sugars, even though they are often called natural, most non-food vitamins are isolated substances which are crystalline in structure, vitamins naturally in food are not crystalline and never isolated. Vitamins found in any real food are chemically and structurally differnt from those commonly found in natural vitamin formulas. Since they are different, naturopaths should consider non-food vitamins as vitamin analogues (imitations) and not actually vitamins. According to mainstream science, vitamins are organic substances that are essential in small amounts for the health, growth, reproduction, and maintenance of one or more animal species, which must be included in the diet since they cannot be synthesized at all or in sufficient quantity in the body. Each vitamin performs a specific function, hence one cannot replace another. Vitamins originate primarily in plant tissues. Isolated non-food vitamins (often called natural or USP or Pharmaceutical grade) are not naturally "included in the diet" do not necessarily "originate primarily in plant tissues". and cannot fully replace all natural vitamin activities. Most vitamins in supplements are petroleum extracts, coal tar derivatives, and chemically processed sugar(plus sometimes industrially processed fish oils) with other acids and industrial chemicals (such as formaldehyde) used to process them. Synthetic vitamins were originally developed because they cost less. Assuming the non-food product does not contain fish oils, most synthetic, petroleum-derived, supplements will call their products "vegetarian" not because they are from plants, but because they are not from animals. There is no mandated definition of the term "natural" just seeing that term on a label does not mean that the supplement contains only natural food substances. Lets look at our favorite for now, Vitamin C, even if one were to take 3 times as much of the so-called natural non-food, ascorbic acid than food vitamin c, although the antioxidant effects might be similar, the ascorbic acid still does not contain DHAA, nor will it ever have negative oxidative reductive potential. Research with a digital ORP meter demonstrated that a citrus food vitamin c has negative ORP, but that ascorbic acid had positive ORP. It takes negative ORP to clean up oxidative damage, and since ascorbic has positive ORP(as well as positive redox potential) it can never replace food vitamin c no matter what the quantity! Futher more, foods which are high in vitamin c tend to have high Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity ( ORAC, another test which measures the ability of foods and other compounds to subdue oxygen free radicals). A US government study compared the effects of a high vitamin c food (containing 80 mg vitamin c) compared to about 15.6 times as much isolated ascorbic acid(1250 mg) found that the vitamin c-containing food produced the greatest increase in blood antioxidant levels. No matter how much isolated ascorbic acid one takes orally, it will never saturate plasma and/or tissue vitamin c levels significantly more than can be obtained by consuming sufficient vitamin c containing foods. It will never have negative ORP, thus can never "clean-up" oxidative damage like food vitamin c can. It will never have the free radical fighting capacity of food vitamin c. It will never contain DHAA(the other half of vitamin c) or the promoting food factors. It will never have the same effect on health issues, such as aging and cardiovascular disease as high vitamin c foods can. It will not ever be utilized the way food vitamin c is. It will always be a Synthetic. It is good to take supplements, i take 10,000 mg vitamin c a day, but getting vitamins in your food is best.


First, I moved this to the "Vitamin C Complex" forum, but some have reported that they had trouble replying to this forum. If you have trouble, post in the general section, let me know, and I'll try to fix it.


Lot to respond to, so starting from the beginning - a "hydrogenated sugar" is apparently a sugar alcohol, but how this relates to vitamin molecules is unclear? Yes, apparently the synthetic vitamin E is derived from petroleum derivatives, yet many studies support its benefits, and we have recommended the natural d-alpha-tocopherol form. "Synthetic vitamins" in general are bioidentical to those found in nature. (Vitamin E is an exception to the rule, because the exact molecular structure is not known or defined.) What the vitamins are derived from makes little difference - the end product is what matters. The argument that we get entire "complexes" when we eat food, rather than isolated vitamins, may have merit, but where is the evidence? The history of the isolation of vitamins is that of finding the active molecules that by themselves are required (for life itself) and must be in the diet. The other substances of the complex are not required, and may or may not have their own health benefits.

Can you back up the following assertion? I am willing to read the evidence.

The truth is that most vitamins in supplements are made or processed with petroleum derivatives or hydrogenated sugars, even though they are often called natural, most non-food vitamins are isolated substances which are crystalline in structure, vitamins naturally in food are not crystalline and never isolated. Vitamins found in any real food are chemically and structurally different from those commonly found in natural vitamin formulas. Since they are different, naturopaths should consider non-food vitamins as vitamin analogues (imitations) and not actually vitamins.


"Chemically and structurally different"? How so? Also,
Isolated non-food vitamins (often called natural or USP or Pharmaceutical grade) are not naturally "included in the diet" do not necessarily "originate primarily in plant tissues". and cannot fully replace all natural vitamin activities.

What activities of so-called "natural" vitamins are not replaced by so-called synthetic? That the manufactured vitamins can cure the specific deficiency disease is clear evidence that they do fulfill their specific metabolic function.

Lets look at our favorite for now, Vitamin C, even if one were to take 3 times as much of the so-called natural non-food, ascorbic acid than food vitamin c, although the antioxidant effects might be similar, the ascorbic acid still does not contain DHAA, nor will it ever have negative oxidative reductive potential. Research with a digital ORP meter demonstrated that a citrus food vitamin c has negative ORP, but that ascorbic acid had positive ORP. It takes negative ORP to clean up oxidative damage, and since ascorbic has positive ORP(as well as positive redox potential) it can never replace food vitamin c no matter what the quantity! Futher more, foods which are high in vitamin c tend to have high Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity ( ORAC, another test which measures the ability of foods and other compounds to subdue oxygen free radicals).


Lots of interesting assertions (and new terms!) Do you mean dehydroascorbic acid w/r DHAA? I think some information on ORP and the ORP meter would be appreciated, as well as ORAC. Any studies on these measures in any publication anywhere?

A US government study compared the effects of a high vitamin c food (containing 80 mg vitamin c) compared to about 15.6 times as much isolated ascorbic acid(1250 mg) found that the vitamin c-containing food produced the greatest increase in blood antioxidant levels. No matter how much isolated ascorbic acid one takes orally, it will never saturate plasma and/or tissue vitamin c levels significantly more than can be obtained by consuming sufficient vitamin c containing foods. It will never have negative ORP, thus can never "clean-up" oxidative damage like food vitamin c can. It will never have the free radical fighting capacity of food vitamin c. It will never contain DHAA(the other half of vitamin c) or the promoting food factors. It will never have the same effect on health issues, such as aging and cardiovascular disease as high vitamin c foods can.

Do you have the study reference? Also "Vitamin c-containing food produced the greatest increase in blood antioxidant levels." could be misleading, even if true. If the assertion was that vitamin C levels were higher, that would be an argument in your favor. However, we know that vitamin C has a half-life of 30 minutes, so if there are other antioxidants in the food, these would be more likely to be present in the blood.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#11  Post by Ralph Lotz » Mon May 24, 2010 7:57 am

ORP meters and ORAC have little to do with how nutrients behave in vivo.

This whole exposition sounds like an advertisement for Standard Process Labs.

At least 3 Nobel Laureates thought that synthetic ascorbic acid was a godsend:
Szent-Gyogyi, von Reichstein and Pauling.

If you want a meaningful dose of lipoic acid from potatoes, you will have to eat a couple of boxcars full!
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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#12  Post by sweetjames » Mon May 24, 2010 8:51 am

No advertising here Ralph. I simply did my best to study and produce some facts to back up the statement i made that Owen challenged, that vitamins in food are better than supplements, ofcourse supplements are a good thing to, i wouldnt spend all the money i spend on them if i didnt beleive that. Owen, my Sunday afternoon, (after church) of study was done at web page-- "The truth about vitamins in nutritional supplements"-- Doctors research, directed by Robert Thiel, who holds a PH.D. in nutrition science. He is licensed as a naturopath by the state of North Carolina, registered as a Naturopath by the district of Columbia, and is licensed as a Naturopathic physician within Idaho. He maintains a natural health clinic in Arroyo Grande. California. Dr Thiel conducts lectures for health care professionals on a variety of natural health topics, he has also written four books for health care professionals. He has conducted, and had published, many scientific health studies. Thiel received the leadership award from the Orthomoolecular Health medicine society, Thiel has been named "Research scientist of the year, Physician of the year, and Disability researcher of the year by the largest American naturopathic association. Dr Thiel has had the only comprehensive paper published in a medical peer-reviewed journal(medical Hypotheses) on the advantages of natural food vitamins over synthetic "Nutrients". I would love to keep conversing with you on this level but it requires research on my behalf, as i go, and i just dont have the time during the week, i am a contractor and have business to attend to. The vitamin c garden posting was mainly inspired by my wife and I planting our garden, we have a great time preparing the soil planting seeds and caring for it as it grows. I enjoyed studying Sunday and coming up with an answer for you and will gladly do it again, great learning experience.

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#13  Post by sweetjames » Mon May 24, 2010 1:12 pm

Lipoic acid is also found in spinach, broccoli, yams, carrots, beets, yeast and dandelion. Yes synthetic asorbic is a great thing, but man made, the natural vitamins that we get from our garden are the ones God sent.

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#14  Post by Steve Brown » Mon May 24, 2010 6:36 pm

Specifically with regard to vitamin C, the chemical formula and molecular structure of ascorbic acid were known before the Reichstein process was devised to synthesize it. The following is quoted from an article linked to below.

"Herbert, Hirst, Percival, Reynolds & Smith (1933) determined the chemical constitution of the substance isolated by Szent-Györgyi (1928) called hexuronic acid. Later the name was changed to ascorbic acid, as the substance was proved to be identical with the active factor in Holst & Frölich's (1907) cure of animals suffering from scurvy. In a series of chemical experiments they proved the substance to have the following structural formula: [click on link to see diagram] which implies a carbon-carbon double bond in a five-membered ring...."

http://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?S0567740868001664

The article linked to below documents that the structure of l-ascorbic acid was ascertained by x-ray crystallography and neutron diffraction analysis.

http://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?S0567740868004449


Ascorbic acid crystallizes when it precipitates out of solution. It does this whether it is extracted from biomass or synthesized by the Reichstein process, because synthetic l-ascorbic acid is the same substance, the same molecule, having the same chemical formula (C6H8O6) and chirality as the l-ascorbic acid extracted from plants or animals. One is indistinguishable from the other.

Natural foods are good because they contain many nutrients and antioxidants besides vitamin C, not because the l-ascorbic acid they contain is any different from synthetic, pharmaceutically pure l-ascorbic acid.

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Re: Vitamin c garden

Post Number:#15  Post by Dolev » Mon May 24, 2010 11:47 pm

I especially like the part about there not being DHAA in the bottled vitamin C. I was just reading in Irwin Stones book aobut how the ratio of AA to DHAA is a very important determinant of health, the higher the better. DHAA may also be necessary, but we can count on enough AA being oxidized to make some.

Although I disagree with sweetjames about some of what he wrote, he does take 10 grams of the tar-birthed synthetic stuff, which is more than I manage to take.

Are most vitamins really made from petrolium and coal tar? I find that difficult to believe.

A client said he only wanted to get his vitamin C from food, so I prescribed 20 oranges, 5 times a day, or a bushfull of rose hips.
Dolev


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