Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

The discussion of how the Thomas E Levy book: Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious disease and toxins.

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Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#1  Post by carnyard » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:30 am

Good Morning,

I am a new user who has recently turned to Vitamin C to treat my Meniere's Disease. Although Meniere's Disease is considered idiopathic, there has been significant evidence that Meniere's is caused by an HSV-1 (herpes) infection in the inner ear wall. Many have found success with high doses of anti-viral medications similar to those used to treat oral and genital herpes.

For personal background, I was diagnosed with Meniere's in 2009, but have been suffering with symptoms since 2006. I have followed most of the medical treatments available short of invasive surgery with no success. I was turned onto Vitamin/Mineral/Supplement treatment in 2009 by a regimen centered on high doses of L-Lysine (3000mg) designed by a retired biology teacher that is readily available in the alternative medicine Meniere's community. I had success with that protocol but could never "get over the hump". My symptoms would improve, then I would catch a cold or flu in the winter months, and my symptoms would come back. Although Vitamin C is part of the protocol, the dosage is low. The biology teacher recently updated his protocol to include high doses of Vitamin D (between 6,000-10,000IU). I added 6,000IU of Vitamin D to my regimen along with the prescription anti-viral Acyclovir. Again I had success until I caught a cold on a business trip.

I am a member of another forum dedicating to Meniere's. The founder and moderator of that forum has virtually cured his Meniere's utilizing high dose Vitamin C based on information he found here @ the Vitamin C Foundation. Many others are following his lead. Before I became a member here, I read all of the literature available as a guest and I have also read Linus Pauling's book. I am convinced that I am suffering from a Vitamin C deficiency and probably have been most of my life. I am working up to bowel tolerance taking pure Ascorbic Acid. Currently I'm taking 12g spread out 5x's per day. The results so far have been tremendous. The cold went away in a matter of hours and my Meniere's symptoms have improved significantly. I will continue to work up to bowel tolerance and try to stay on the maintenance dose and see what happens. My question is once I reach bowel tolerance, what should I expect?

Thanks again for all of your wonderful work.

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:58 am

Appreciate this report and welcome. I was going to suggest vitamin D after reading the first paragraph, and I am surprised that you still caught a cold with both high vitamin C and vitamin D. (Perhaps both should be increased?) I would recommend following Pauling's basic protocol on page 14 of HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (esp. vitamin A) to help your immune system resist and fight infections.
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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#3  Post by carnyard » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:01 am

Owen,

I was not taking high doses of Vitamin C when I caught the cold. The cold was actually the catalyst for me to explore higher doses of Vitamin C. What are "safe" doses of Vitamin A and D? I am not as familar.

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:27 am

Well, we are the vitamin C foundation - so take this with a grain of salt :) Ralph and other experts are sure to chime in. Pauling recommended 25,000 iu of vitamin A daily in HTLLAFB. If I were prone to infection, I would take at least that much, as I believe people can generally consume probably 50,000 IU daily for extended periods. (Children in the 3rd world are given shots of 100,000 iu to 500,000 iu of vitamin A (retinol) which saves their lives. Otherwise they would die of infection after they go blind.)

Vitamin D recommendations seem to be increasing almost daily. I posted some excerpts from a recent Life Extension magazine interview with a renown vitamin D researcher http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8381 and his rather modest recommendations (2000 iu daily) are:


I think you need to maintain your 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels above 30 ng/mL. For my patients and for me personally, I like for it to be between 40-60 ng/mL or 25-hydorxyvitamin D to guarantee vitamin D sufficiency and its health benefits.

It is essentially impossible to get an adequate amount of vitamin D from dietary sources on a daily basis. We have always depended in the past on sensible sun exposure as the major source of vitamin D which we have now abandoned.

Teenagers and adults need a total of at least 2,000 IU of vitamin D a day. Taking 14,000 IU of vitamin D weekly or 50,000 IU of vitamin D every two weeks has been should to be effective in maintain the blood levels above 30 ng/mL in teenagers and adults.


I myself rely on "simulated sunlight" (UV/B) during winter to generate my own Vitamin D, and I still take 2000 to 5000 iu in winter. Some doctors are now recommending 10,000 iu daily. (Vitamin D3)
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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#5  Post by Ralph Lotz » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:25 am

Ralph and other experts are sure to chime in.


Owen's vitamin A and D comments are accurate.
However, using large doses of any substances, even orthomolecular ones that appear not to be immediately toxic is a form of chemotherapy, and should be used prudently.

Nutrients, minerals and phytochemicals at even very low levels have a profound effect on genetic expression, activating and/or silencing the genes that direct the synthesis of the millions of proteins that keep us alive and healthy.
Why use a hydrogen bomb if a flyswatter works?

Dr. Rath has proven that nutrient synergy works in over 102 published studies.

Based on my personal lifelong combat with HSV-1, HSV-2 and Herpes Zoster, vitamin C, Lysine and vitamin D3 (start with 50,000 IU until infection subsides) are at the top of the list. Effective virus killing helpers are quercetin, green tea, myrecetin and kaempferol, and eating apples, red onions, berries, broccoli and tea along with the supplements has worked miracles for me.

Recently I discovered a supplement called Nutracidin from VRP, which should really kick viruses in the butt:
http://www.vrp.com/immune-system/nutracidin
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#6  Post by carnyard » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:46 am

Ralph Lotz wrote:
Ralph and other experts are sure to chime in.


Owen's vitamin A and D comments are accurate.
However, using large doses of any substances, even orthomolecular ones that appear not to be immediately toxic is a form of chemotherapy, and should be used prudently.

Nutrients, minerals and phytochemicals at even very low levels have a profound effect on genetic expression, activating and/or silencing the genes that direct the synthesis of the millions of proteins that keep us alive and healthy.
Why use a hydrogen bomb if a flyswatter works?

Dr. Rath has proven that nutrient synergy works in over 102 published studies.

Based on my personal lifelong combat with HSV-1, HSV-2 and Herpes Zoster, vitamin C, Lysine and vitamin D3 (start with 50,000 IU until infection subsides) are at the top of the list. Effective virus killing helpers are quercetin, green tea, myrecetin and kaempferol, and eating apples, red onions, berries, broccoli and tea along with the supplements has worked miracles for me.

Recently I discovered a supplement called Nutracidin from VRP, which should really kick viruses in the butt:
http://www.vrp.com/immune-system/nutracidin


Thank you Ralph, I currently take 3,000mg of L-Lysine and 6000 IU of Vitamin D3 along with bowel tolerance level of Vitamin C. I am curious about your recommendation of 50,000 IU of Vitamin D. Can you expand? I have never seen a recommendation that high for Vitamin D. Isn't 20,000 IU considered the ceiling?

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#7  Post by Lemonaid » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:22 am

A 10,000 IU/day dose gives the average user a 3X factor of safety over Toxicity which is approximately 300 ng/mL 25(OH)D blood level. (Note: Grassroots.org says 200 ng/mL but the actual research is higher as cited below. Grassroots.org is obviously being conservative.)

Image

However... individual response can vary tremendously so if you're taking more than 10,000 IUs a day chronically you're advised to get a blood test.


Toxicity of vitamin D 300 ng but selected 100 ng to be prudent – Aug 2008

Pharmacokinetics of vitamin D toxicity.
by: Glenville Jones
The American journal of clinical nutrition, Vol. 88, No. 2. (August 2008)

Although researchers first identified the fat-soluble vitamin cholecalciferol almost a century ago and studies have now largely elucidated the transcriptional mechanism of action of its hormonal form, 1alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) 1alpha,25(OH)(2)D(3), we know surprisingly little about mechanisms of vitamin D toxicity. The lipophilic nature of vitamin D explains its adipose tissue distribution and its slow turnover in the body (half-life approximately 2 mo). Its main transported metabolite, 25-hydroxyvitamin D(3) 25(OH)D(3), shows a half-life of approximately 15 d and circulates at a concentration of 25-200 nmol/L, whereas the hormone 1alpha,25(OH)(2)D(3) has a half-life of approximately 15 h. Animal experiments involving vitamin D(3) intoxication have established that 25(OH)D(3) can reach concentrations up to 2.5 mumol/L, at which it is accompanied by hypercalcemia and other pathological sequelae resulting from a high Ca/PO(4) product. The rise in 25(OH)D(3) is accompanied by elevations of its precursor, vitamin D(3), as well as by rises in many of its dihydroxy- metabolites 24,25(OH)(2)D(3); 25,26(OH)(2)D(3); and 25(OH)D(3)-26,23-lactone but not 1alpha,25(OH)(2)D(3). Early assumptions that 1alpha,25(OH)(2)D(3) might cause hypercalcemia in vitamin D toxicity have been replaced by the theories that 25(OH)D(3) at pharmacologic concentrations can overcome vitamin D receptor affinity disadvantages to directly stimulate transcription or that total vitamin D metabolite concentrations displace 1alpha,25(OH)(2)D from vitamin D binding, increasing its free concentration and thus increasing gene transcription. Occasional anecdotal reports from humans intoxicated with vitamin D appear to support the latter mechanism.

Although current data support the viewpoint that the biomarker plasma 25(OH)D concentration must rise above 750 nmol/L to produce vitamin D toxicity, the more prudent upper limit of 250 nmol/L might be retained to ensure a wide safety margin.


Image
Last edited by Lemonaid on Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#8  Post by Ralph Lotz » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:47 am

I am curious about your recommendation of 50,000 IU of Vitamin D. Can you expand? I have never seen a recommendation that high for Vitamin D. Isn't 20,000 IU considered the ceiling?


50,000 IU - 200,000 IU daily for a few days is known as "stoss" therapy in Europe. These amounts are used at the outset of an infection and are not routine everyday doses. If these doses don't show relief of symptoms in 3 days, D3 is not the answer. Such large doses of D3 may increase induced expression of the human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) gene. Cathelicidin
is an important part of our innate immune system.
5,000 IU is my routine daily dose.

I have 4 grown children and 4 grandchildren. 3 of them are health professionals. We all use stoss therapy when needed, and have for years.

stoss therapy
http://www.google.com/search?q=stoss+th ... =firefox-a
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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#9  Post by carnyard » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:01 am

Ralph Lotz wrote:
I am curious about your recommendation of 50,000 IU of Vitamin D. Can you expand? I have never seen a recommendation that high for Vitamin D. Isn't 20,000 IU considered the ceiling?


50,000 IU - 200,000 IU daily for a few days is known as "stoss" therapy in Europe. These amounts are used at the outset of an infection and are not routine everyday doses. If these doses don't show relief of symptoms in 3 days, D3 is not the answer. Such large doses of D3 may increase induced expression of the human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) gene. Cathelicidin
is an important part of our innate immune system.
5,000 IU is my routine daily dose.

I have 4 grown children and 4 grandchildren. 3 of them are health professionals. We all use stoss therapy when needed, and have for years.

stoss therapy
http://www.google.com/search?q=stoss+th ... =firefox-a


Ralph,

Can you get the same effect using a U-V tanning bed for three straight days for a certain duration?

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#10  Post by Ralph Lotz » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:59 am

Can you get the same effect using a U-V tanning bed for three straight days for a certain duration?


I think that you would fry yourself.
Buy the pills here:
http://www.lifespannutrition.com/produc ... itamin%20D

or here:
http://www.applehealthfoods.net/shop/pr ... _product=1
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#11  Post by carnyard » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:40 am

Ralph Lotz wrote:
Can you get the same effect using a U-V tanning bed for three straight days for a certain duration?


I think that you would fry yourself.
Buy the pills here:
http://www.lifespannutrition.com/produc ... itamin%20D

or here:
http://www.applehealthfoods.net/shop/pr ... _product=1


I reached my bowel tolerance level @ 22g. Do I maintain a daily dose of 20-21g forever? I also take 3000mg of L-Lysine and 6000 IU of Vitamin D. Do I need to increase my L-Lysine?

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:54 am

I reached my bowel tolerance level @ 22g. Do I maintain a daily dose of 20-21g forever? I also take 3000mg of L-Lysine and 6000 IU of Vitamin D. Do I need to increase my L-Lysine?


Regarding tanning bed - if UV/B then probably a good idea, but I am sure that tanning beds also include UV/A (which tans!) and so Ralph is probably right! UV/B spectrum is what causes skin to turn cholesterol into vitamin D.

As far as vitamin C bowel tolerance - this can change as the underlying stress is resolved. So probably not forever, unless you are fighting a toxic load or long term infection, etc. Good idea to keep at bowel tolerance until resolved, and according to Cathcart's chart, most people who are not sick or under stress fall into a range of much less.
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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#13  Post by carnyard » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:14 am

ofonorow wrote:
I reached my bowel tolerance level @ 22g. Do I maintain a daily dose of 20-21g forever? I also take 3000mg of L-Lysine and 6000 IU of Vitamin D. Do I need to increase my L-Lysine?


Regarding tanning bed - if UV/B then probably a good idea, but I am sure that tanning beds also include UV/A (which tans!) and so Ralph is probably right! UV/B spectrum is what causes skin to turn cholesterol into vitamin D.

As far as vitamin C bowel tolerance - this can change as the underlying stress is resolved. So probably not forever, unless you are fighting a toxic load or long term infection, etc. Good idea to keep at bowel tolerance until resolved, and according to Cathcart's chart, most people who are not sick or under stress fall into a range of much less.


So the expectation should be that as my Meniere's virus is suppressed, my bowel tolerance will lower and I will find that I have to reduce from 20 or 21 grams just to stay under it.

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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#14  Post by ofonorow » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:25 am

Yes, although if it is only suppressed, and not eradicated, then the tolerance might not change. Forgive me, did we recommend http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm? Worth reading.
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Re: Vitamin C and Meniere's Disease

Post Number:#15  Post by carnyard » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:51 am

ofonorow wrote:Yes, although if it is only suppressed, and not eradicated, then the tolerance might not change. Forgive me, did we recommend http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm? Worth reading.


Thank you very much for the information and the guidance. This has been extremely helpful. I am curious about the virus being eradicated. My expectation for experimenting with high dose Vitamin C was the possibility of suppressing the HSV-1. I always thought that HSV-1 was incurable. Your literature and other information posted here seems to say otherwise.


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