New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Discussion of the benefits and disadvantages of commercial and homemade (DIY) liposomal vitamin C

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#136  Post by dazed1 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:17 pm

Hi guys, what do you think of mixing sodium ascorbate with AA in order to make the ultimate liposomal c? or best of both worlds?

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#137  Post by dazed1 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:00 pm

Anyone?

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#138  Post by dazed1 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:27 am

Bump?

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#139  Post by testingc » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:01 am

@dazed1 - I'm not sure you'll get definitive answers here. I've posted several times, and have had zero response. Many posts seems highly speculative, with questionable, home-brew science. Trawling through some of the early posts, Chris was quite active and referred people back to his site. Others suggested sending off samples to a lab to have the liposomal effect tested -- AFAIK, no-one did (or if they did, they didn't share definitive results). I contacted a couple via PM to suggest I'd be up for contributing, but got no response.

I'm kinda losing my faith in this thread. I'm sticking to Chris' original formula as closely as possible (same ingredients, same/similar brands, same strengths) and hoping - mostly with blind-faith - that what I'm producing is close to the commercial stuff.

I'd love to see this formalised, with proper testing and certificates of analysis. But everyone on this thread just seems to post their own thing, and then kinda disappear. I haven't really seen anyone definitively say one way or another, whether certain methods are better. Probably because they don't really know? In any case, if you do get a response on mixing sodium ascorbate with AA, it's probably going to be theory and not hard-science!

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#140  Post by testingc » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:15 am

Some feedback, at the tail end of making my first batch...

As mentioned in a previous post, I bought and used the following equipment/ingredients:

Blender: Vitamix (already own this)

Ultrasonic Cleaner: Wunicorn (Vevor) Ultrasonic Cleaner with Heater Timer Digital Stainless Steel (2L) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01CP5YVTS)

Lecithin: Nature's Best Lecithin Granules - https://www.naturesbest.co.uk/lecithin- ... src=gonato (this is different to the original ones I was going to buy; they were closest I could find in composition to Chris' original formula)

Alcohol: Utkins UK5 Pure Grain Organic Vodka (100% chemical-free, 40% proof) http://www.abelandcole.co.uk/uk5-organic-vodka-70cl to purchase, http://www.uk5.org/index3.htm for research

Vitamin C: UK/EU sourced Ascorbic Acid by Nature's Best https://www.naturesbest.co.uk/vitamin-c ... src=gonato

Distilled water: https://apcpure.com/product/Distilled_W ... GwodlYYD4w

1L scientific glass beaker: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

------

Some notes:

[*] I opted for HALF the formula on this first batch, to ensure I was doing everything right. I'll scale up later.

[*] Since I'm using vodka, I'm following the 40% recipe. This seems EXTREMELY alcohol-heavy. If my final batch winds up being ~400ml (half of Chris' formula) and 35.6% of the total volume is vodka, that would be 142.4ml or the equivalent of about 3.3 shots of vodka. Assuming Chris' "60ml per day" regimen, that's half a shot of vodka every evening... I'm somewhat concerned about the long-term health implications of basically downing 15 extra shots of vodka per month.. there goes my evening glass of red wine!

[*] The solution is quite 'thin'. A lot of people complained about the viscosity, which I assume is due to different lecithin granules. Mine were very close to the composition Chris used, so I think reducing the quantity by 20% was probably unnecessary in my case. I'll see how this affects the formula.

[*] The blend/ultrasonic cycle has taken me 2 days so far, and I'm only on step 4. Blending over the course of 12 hours means I hit the end of the day before moving on to the next step. I estimate it'll take a third day to finalise and start using. Therefore, start to finish, this is at least a 3 day process - bear that in mind when running out and making future batches!

[*] My ultrasonic cleaner had almost ZERO ultrasonic effect when using a scientific beaker (even with thin glass). Touching the surrounding water vs. the solution in the beaker gave a noticeable difference- the little 'shocks' weren't present at all in the solution. I can't see any effect of the ultrasonic waves penetrating the glass. The only mild effect is thermal transfer from the water heating up around it. For this reason, by the end, I took the solution OUT of the beaker and directly into the cleaner. (I double-checked with the manufacturer; they use 304 grade stainless steel, so this curbs my concerns of 'leaching')

[*] The ultrasonic cleaner claims to have 2L of capacity, but that's just total volume space (assuming you're pouring in the liquid directly). With a beaker and a steel cage, it barely covers the 400ml mark -- so there's less than half a of litre of available room if you follow Chris' cardboard holder style. Bear this in mind when buying a cleaner -- you'd probably need 3-4L to get 1 good one.

[*] On step 4, my ultrasonic hits 32C in about 2.5 - 3 minutes. Irradiating for a total of an hour (assuming a 30 minute cool-down in the fridge) will therefore require at least 12 hours of total wait time, plus the irradiation and interim cleaning cycles. This isn't time you can leave the house; this assumes a constant ultrasonic/refrigeration process. This may be slowed down slightly using the beaker, but again, I don't think the solution is actually getting the benefit of the ultrasonic waves.

----

Overall, the process has been quite laborious so far (especially for just 400ml -- which will be gone in less than a week!). Even doubling the batch size back to Chris' formula size will require a new batch every couple of weeks, which means blocking out 3 days every 2 weeks where I can be around to carry the formula through each step.

Is it worth it? I'll let you know once I've tried it. Bowel tolerance will be my only guide (although I have tried the 1g commercial packets available, so I'll have a good idea if what results is anything like that formula.) I'm not sure I'd be able to maintain this regimen, though - the alcohol is extremely heavy and the process to make it takes an age. In the long-run, it might be cheaper to just buy the commercial stuff and at least guarantee that what I'm making is actually the real thing!

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#141  Post by testingc » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:02 am

Follow up to my last post...

I've finished creating my first batch!

Here's a picture of the final result:

Image

Notes:

* As mentioned in the last post, I used exactly HALF the ingredients (except for the lecithin- I used 20% less, per Chris' recommendation for the first batch). Despite this, the resulting formula was closer to 250ml than 400ml.

* For the final ultrasonic, I put the formula directly into the cleaner, and not inside a beaker. As mentioned, there was also zero effect in the beaker. I confirmed the unit used 304 grade (food-safe) stainless steel, so this wasn't too much of a concern.

* My formula heated up to 32C in 2-3 minutes per ultrasonic cycle. I did 3-4 rounds of this (followed by 30 minute cool-downs), so my total irradiation time was 6-12 minutes (probably somewhere in the middle; say 9 minutes to be safe). This was at least 50 minutes less than Chris recommends, and was done for the practical reason that the continuous irradiate/refrigerate cycles would have required at least 12 total hours of monitoring, which I did not have spare. More than that, I wanted to see that making the formula could be practical and repeatable -- that each new batch wouldn't require 3-4 days out of my life!

* I used a Vitamin blender, which I think helped. Instead of taking 2-4 mins to hit temp, it took only 1 min. By the last blending cycle, the solution was quite close to commercial quality (similar to Lipolife Gold - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0087HW65K in consistency and taste... except being a lot stronger!)

* Ultrasonic heating directly in the stainless steel basket slightly burnt the edges, which I had to scrub off. I'm not sure this is ideal for the long-term health of the cleaner- just an FYI if you also use it for its original purpose of cleaning other stuff.

The results were pretty good, IMO:

1. After the final blend cycle, there were almost zero bubbles, and none of the 'snotty strands' (as Chris said)

2. I took 10ml of the final solution, added some water, and mixed in 2g of sodium bicarbonate, to test for a reaction. There was a very low fizz - detectable only by listening very closely to the formula - I'd say perhaps 5% of the solution (although it's hard to know for sure). No discernible bubbling or 'movement' in the formula. I'm taking this to mean that encapsulation is very high.

3. As mentioned above, the taste, mouth feel and consistency is almost EXACTLY like Lipolife Gold (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0087HW65K), except that my formula is a LOT more sour. I put that down to two simple things: 1) there's half a shot of vodka per 60ml dose! and 2) Each 60ml dose has 19g of vitamin of C. I tested out with 10ml (3.16g vit C).

4. Normally, a 3g dose of 'neat' vitamin C (without buffering with bicarb) would result in an immediate bowel intolerance. I took 3g of my home-brew formula in the same day as 2g of Lipolife Gold, and had mild rumbling, but none of the urgency of 'straight' ascorbic acid.

Overall, I'd consider it a success. I spent around 110 GBP on all of the equipment and ingredients, equivalent to around 4x bottles of Lipolife Gold at 250ml each (1L total). From this point, I'd spend around 40 GBP on vodka, lecithin and ascorbic acid to yield approximately double the amount. It's definitely more economical to do it 'in-house' longer-term, although of course I'm somewhat blind as far as the efficacy of the final product, save for the above anecdotal testing. Then again, I could say the same for any commercial formula - I'm only going on their word.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#142  Post by Johnwen » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:05 pm

OMG !!! Is all I can say from what I’m reading in these posts.
Drinking per se Liposome / Vodka cocktails first thing in the morning I don’t think and know that this isn’t going to give any benefits!
So I thought, what’s the fastest and most efficient method I could convey to this group of DIY’ers.
Right now there’s about 25 different methods of encapsulation that are in use and I opted to show the simplest which can yield up to 90% encapsulation. However it only yields SUV’s but for this purpose should suffice. It’ll also give sobering results!!

If you have studied lipids you know that the head turn to liquid and the tail stays away from it. So the head is hydrophilic and the tail is hydrophobic.
However it has been found that this also applies to certain solvents also and when this reaction occurs theses lipid’s also cluster together to form a liposome or a sphere of individual lipids. Ethanol is a solvent that this occurs in so it is readily available in most states as pure grain alcohol or 180 proof white lighting. In commercial production various other forms of this product are used but require refined purification methods are needed to remove the byproducts.

In the following I’m going to outline how this process works!
I’m leaving out the details of quantity because there are so many variables that only experimentation of amounts would be a individual preference!

In the first step were going to institute this reaction.
We take a beaker and add the ethanol to it, then take a slightly smaller amount of lipids and blend the two together gently. This forms the liposome’s. Wait at least 10 minutes to allow for this reaction!

DO THIS OUTSIDE ANY STRUCTURE IN OPEN AIR!!
Next is evaporation Ethanol has a flash point of 61.9* F so it don’t take much heat to get it to disappear without damage to the liposome’s. As you can imagine the flash of water is @ 212*F and at that temp. your cooking the liposome’s. I would say that water at 100*F in the tray should give rapid results in evaporation. Once again remember your working with a flammable liquid here and it’s vaporized making it more flammable. Once the ethanol has disappeared and the liposome’s are dry. Remove the beaker and let it cool to ambient temperature.

Now mix your Ascorbic acid and water you want a mix that is just above a paste. So Put you AA in first then add water and stir till it’s a moveable liquid. Keep a little bit of the AA mix here!
Now add this to the Dry Lipo’s. and gently agitate to get it to blend together. Don’t shake or stir just a gentle movement.

Now get out the ultrasound this method depends on the power of your unit! If it’s High power you can keep it in the beaker and zap it in surrounding water.
Low power, pour mix into unit and add the left over AA mix as a rinse for the beaker.
Zap it till mix looks blended if not keep zapping till it looks mixed.

You now have Lipo-C but to get out the residuals for the highest encapsulation it should be filtered. The best way is a gentle centrifuge. However your talking $$!! Or you could just set it a side for awhile and let the good stuff settle to the bottom and pour off the residual which is AA and water and blank liposome’s! So it’s drinkable!! The muddy stuff on the bottom is what it’s all about! That’s your Liposome AA!!

Hope this helps with your health and sobriety!!!

Image
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#143  Post by ajhewitt » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:16 am

Love this site,makes me feel someone is on my side,my mates think I am bonkers.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#144  Post by ajhewitt » Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:02 am

Hi Chris,I have been getting my none gmo ascorbic acid from my health shop,I note that my local home brew supplies have it much cheaper, but they connot be sure of its origin of manufacture, I would like your opinion please.Cheers Alan.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#145  Post by tjokhadze » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:33 am

Hello, can you recommend a decent ultrasonic bath that is not too expensive? preferably in the $100-200 range?

Thanks,
Thea

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#146  Post by Jacquie » Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:02 pm

http://www.harborfreight.com/25-liter-u ... 63256.html

Here's the one I use; it's 80 bucks. I've never measured the quality of the liposomes it makes, but it's easy enough to use, and holds enough liquid for my purposes.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#147  Post by barnsie » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:41 am

This is a recipe I have used for a year and if you make slight changes to each consecutive batch you will soon find the exact quantity of lecithin to give the required consistency and get a good bicarbonate result with your brands of ingredients. Watch your temperatures as overheating in the ultrasonic bath or mixer can irreversibly spoil the liposomes.

Because of overheating risks it takes us 36 hours to do a 2 litre batch even with ice in the ultrasonic machine. When doing the bicarbonate test mix a small distilled water and ascorbic acid sample at the same vitamin c ratio as the complete liposomal mix and look for the difference. Low slow frothing as opposed to excited fizzing with large bubbles should be evident if you have done everything correctly. My daughter achieved a lab tested vitamin C blood level of 440uml/litre with a seven gram dose of a similar recipe. No bowel tolerance was noted and she had up to 25 grams per day for over a year. I do not think higher dosages would have further increased her blood levels, however, she did not have an infection.

The tartness of the pure ascorbic acid compared to sodium ascorbate takes some getting used to but the absorption into the bloodstream is far higher in my experience. We use sunflower lecithin because of concerns over the estrogen and high temperatures used, and resulting byproducts, in the manufacture of the soy lecithin byproduct of oil extraction. We use a similar industrial ultrasonic bath as shown in the video and it is brilliant. Always do a proper comparative bicarbonate test to make sure of each batch.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#148  Post by ChristopheG » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:13 am

Hello everyone,
Lots of interesting things written here.
I have been making liposomal (or something like it) vitamin C using the recipes and instructions on www.qualityliposomalc.com

I have tried various versions, with ascorbic acid, commercial sodium ascorbate, commercial magnesium ascorbate, 161g ascorbic acid + 16g bicarbonate and 161g ascorbic acid + 16g magnesium citrate.

The baking soda test also foams with me, but only upon stirring. Not if I just add it to the mix.

Rather than testing for liposomes, (I don't really care the % that is liposomal), I would like to test effectiveness in terms of vitamin C blood level concentrations. The amount of liposomes will likely ensure a high level, but it's still an indirect test.

If you want to go from place A to B in 1 hour, you might think that you need a vehicle able to travel at 60km/h. But as long as you measure that you can get there in 1 hour, it doesn't matter if you travel at 60 km/h for 1 hour, or 90 km/h for 40 minutes, or 180km/h for 10 minutes and then 40km/h for 45 minutes. So the speed you can reach is less relevant than your ability to get to the destination on time.

I read somewhere that with regular oral Vit C, you can reach up to 220 uml/litre.
Barnsie just wrote his/her daughter reached a blood level of 440 uml/litre with a 7g dose. How much time was in between taking the vit c and the blood test?

My aunt has terminal cancer, and I would like to know if this does anything meaningful, or if it is just milky vitamin C that causes less gastric distress. Some tumor killing happens from 400 uml onwards apparently, and definitely at levels of 1000 uml onwards.

I'm based in Belgium (Europe). Unfortunately I couldn't find any testing facility in my country, but there is on in the Netherlands near Utrecht. (www.europeanlaboratory.nl) That's just over 2 hours driving for here, so I'm willing to go there and test myself. It costs about 25 EUR/USD per vitamin C blood test + nurse/blood taking costs + prescription from a doctor.

I was thinking of 2 or 3 tests in one day with some time in between.

What would you recommend as a protocol in terms of timing and does anyone know how long it takes to be absorbed in your blood?

I was thinking the following:

Drive there in the morning, take about 15ml (about 3.000 mg of "liposomal" vit c) about an hour before the test (while driving). I typically take about 1tbsp (about 15ml) per dose, so it would be interesting to know how much that raises my blood level.

Then take another 15 ml every 15 minutes for 1 hour (so 4x). So another 12.000 mg. Then wait 30-60 minutes and test again.
That would be 15.000 mg in total, taken over a period of 2,5-3 hours before the second blood test.

Then take nothing for the next 2 hours and test again (to see increase or drop).

Some references online claim every gram of liposomal vit c would be as effective as about 6-7 grams of IV vit C. There are numbers of IV Vit c, so we could compare those. If it is very effective, it should reach levels comparable to those of 90-100g vitC IV drips.

Currently, I can take about 40-50 ml in one go before reaching bowel tolerance (only loose stools, no diarrhea). I have take up to 120ml in one day, feeling fine. I usually take about 3 x 2.000 mg vit c capsules in one day, with the occasional boost of "liposomal C" when I feel I could use it or there are "diseased" people around me.

I'd be happy to do more tests, or try several versions if people are willing to share the costs. I can provide my paypal account for fund generation if useful.

Of course I'll happily share how I make my batch of vitamin C, and the results of the corresponding blood tests.

I already got in touch with a local physician to ask for prescriptions (and the cost of those), but she hasn't answered me back yet.

Thoughts?

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#149  Post by skwoodwiva » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:23 am

I am new to the forum.
I have made 2 batches following Chris's recipe, blender (NutraBullet) only.

I am doing a 3rd to norma67's 2 step, but blender only (NB). Less the vit E of other addons. But keeping the PC to .35 gr per gr vit C and net ethanol to 10% by Wt, (a little less than Chris's).
This one is in a constant nitrogen bath, start to fini (I am a HVACR Mechanic / Heart patient!).
I made a hole in the closed end-side of the NB by which I can purge with N2 when needed. I use the NB on full line voltage to heat to 45 *C +.
Pic to open in Chrome or Mega.
https://mega.nz/#!tFImlY5J!7oQoKb5KnH3o ... MLQVNLyowM
Image
Add the Vit C and vodka through the port, purge, seal with rubber stopper, then, with a Variac, put the NB on a slow stir to cool then into the freezer, (Edit, I see with the help of jara_j's recent post that this stir may be why it did not gel up >>>) doing a stir, but strong enough to wash the walls to increase heat transfer.


Finally doing several line voltage heat ups, in freezer, from 5*C to 25*C, with stirs between.

Thanks to all here!!!!!!
Gotta go taste it now.....
Last edited by skwoodwiva on Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#150  Post by skwoodwiva » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:42 am

Hmmm, less tart than my last 2 but still very tart. Nowhere near my LivOn. Also much thinner than Chris's blender only, 2nd batch....


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