New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Discussion of the benefits and disadvantages of commercial and homemade (DIY) liposomal vitamin C

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testingc
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#121  Post by testingc » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:41 pm

You can cool it but don't cool it below room temperature because I'm almost sure low temperature destroy liposomes.


Are you saying it needs to be consumed whilst still warm? Don't put in the fridge at all? What's the basis for this?

norma67
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#122  Post by norma67 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:56 pm

hi to all, I am sorry for my late reply to some of you.

I'll start from the end:
jara_j:

regarding the temperature, it is not true the liposomes are destroyed at low temperatures, the transition temperature where the liposomes are formed is at about 40 °C, and below this, the vesicles are stable.

"Lysophosphatidylcholine formation also slowed when the liposomes were kept at 4°C, or in an O2-free atmosphere. It is concluded that egg yolk lecithin liposomes may be stored for long periods at low temperature in an O2-free atmosphere or with added stabilizers such as cholesterol and α-tocopherol."
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-7158.1990.tb06578.x/abstract

At first boil over distilled water and pour 310g of it to glass jar. Let to cool it to about 50C (122F). Dissolve 120g of AA in it

No, it is not advisable to add the C vitamin into the water at 50°C, since it is sensible to the temperature.
this is why I add the C vitamin solution (room temperature) to the lecithin solution when this one is at 42°C- 45 °C, just above the transition temperature, in a way to affect the C vitamin as less as possible to the temperature.

Elpaggio:
norma67 according to this document "Influence of temperature on the manufacturing of liposomes" (http://www.pharmtech.tu-bs.de/files/mue ... le0110.pdf) the transition face
of pure lipids (phospatidylcholine) is 41.4 C and the upper limit (Krafft) point of lecithin (none pure lipids) is 58 C.
Should we aim for 58 C when melting the lecithin instead?

The document states: "For the formation of liposomes a certain temperature
between 41.4 °C and 58 °C is necessary"

Does this mean that we should mix in the ascorbic acid solution at this temperature in the water bath and keep it there for a while
or should we aim for that temperature range when doing the sonification?


I have answered in part above.
When you heat the lecithin solution, you can reach a higher temperature to dissolve the lecithin. The prehydration and the alcohol help to dissolve it, so it should be enough to arrive around 60 °C.
After that, the solution has to cool down, and when it arrives at 42-45 °C, the C vitamin solution (room temperature) is added, and automatically, the temperature falls further, the transition temperature is reached, and the liposomes will be formed.

The principle is to keep the C vitamin as little time as possible at a higher temperature, so the following sonification is done in a room temperature bath after the liposome solution has been kept in refrigerator for a period.

The preparation of the liposomes already occurs with cooling below 40 ° C, called the transition temperature, the point where the phospholipids pass from liquid crystal to gel and the liposomes are formed spontaneously.
When the solution has reached room temperature, it is a shiny and viscous gel.
I don't use the blender at all.
I leave it for a few hours in the fridge before I put it in the ultrasonic bath
The ultrasonic bath serves to to decrease the size of the vesicles, to make them smaller. I leave it in the ultrasonic bath (mine is 38kHz 100watt) for 20-30 min, in a water bath at room temperature.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#123  Post by jara_j » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:28 am

testingc wrote:
You can cool it but don't cool it below room temperature because I'm almost sure low temperature destroy liposomes.


Are you saying it needs to be consumed whilst still warm? Don't put in the fridge at all? What's the basis for this?


I store it at room temperature. Alcohol conserves it and I think it's because AA solution is so concentrated that in lower temperature AA precipitates and the structure changes. May be lecithin I use has this behaviour. Definitely my product stored in refrigerator is not clear and is more sour to taste. I'm not saying that all liposomal solutions cannot be refrigerated but this one yes.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#124  Post by jara_j » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:17 am

norma67
At first boil over distilled water and pour 310g of it to glass jar. Let to cool it to about 50C (122F). Dissolve 120g of AA in it

No, it is not advisable to add the C vitamin into the water at 50°C, since it is sensible to the temperature.
this is why I add the C vitamin solution (room temperature) to the lecithin solution when this one is at 42°C- 45 °C, just above the transition temperature, in a way to affect the C vitamin as less as possible to the temperature.

Yes, it's true but this temperature is more dangerous for vitamin C in food then in this case of pure AA. It's becaouse of enzymes. Here are no enyzmes so short heating to 50C is not so dangerous and AA is really dissolved very quickly without ultrasound. All process is very quick to minimize AA lost. I think it's really dangerous for your ears to sonorize and mix the solution. Thats why I prefere this method.

Amendment: Let's quantify loss of AA at 50°C in water solution. According to https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228484005_KINETICS_OF_THE_OXIDATION_OF_VITAMIN_C it will be less then 5% after 60 min. Is it too much? Whole process can take less then 30 minutes.
Last edited by jara_j on Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

testingc
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#125  Post by testingc » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:00 am

I think it's really dangerous for your ears to sonorize and mix the solution. Thats why I prefere this method.


Maybe wear some ear defenders? Or just walk out of the room?

I think we need to be VERY careful to quantify what is established as scientific fact, and what is just a personal preference. There's a lot of posts here about 'preferred methods', some of them contradictory or even the exact opposite recommendation to the original method that started this thread. I'm not saying they're not valid - but I'd like to see statements backed by studies or lab results that confirm them.

Has anyone sent their mixture to a lab to confirm the lipsomes? Care to share the results?

I'd be open to kicking in a few $$ for a group analysis. I'm based in the UK - if there's anyone local that wants to reach out to a lab, I'd be happy to contribute.

Kasia
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#126  Post by Kasia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:45 am

hello,
I want to ask about alcohol in the mixture- does it stay in the final product? Do kids can use it?

norma67
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#127  Post by norma67 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:45 pm

the liposomes are already formed by the heating process and stirring until under the transition temperature at 40°C.
The sonification has its precise function and not just added in the method by case.
It is needed to improve the quality of the liposomes as it contributes to get more homogeneous and smaller vesicles.
The size of the vesicles is important for the absorption of the liposomes.

-The Liposome size is important. The too small vesicles do not contain adequate levels of nutritious substance (such as Vitamin C), while the oversized vesicles are not absorbed properly by the membrane, so the nutritious substance is not transported through the intestinal mucosa. the optimum range is of 100-400 nanometers to balance the capacity of nutrition substances and absorption.
-Sonicated liposomes with a more heterogeneous size, generally showed a lower uptake in the liver and in the spleen and the highest level of absorption in the blood in comparative with liposomes less heterogeneous.


I have tried to attach some photos, but I didn't succeed, or I haven't understood the procedure explained here in the forum.
How is it done?

testingc
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#128  Post by testingc » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:53 pm

Kasia wrote:hello,
I want to ask about alcohol in the mixture- does it stay in the final product? Do kids can use it?


Alcohol evaporates at 78.33C. Unless there are other chemical processes at work I'm not aware of, I imagine that means it will still be present in the final solution. Perhaps someone here can clarify?

Assuming the above is correct - Following Chris' original formula, if you used vodka, 35.6% of the final solution would be made up of it. A 60ml shot he takes every day would contain 21.36ml of vodka, equivalent to almost half a shot you'd order at a bar!

norma67
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#129  Post by norma67 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:20 pm

Regarding the temperature I suggest to see these graphics:
http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jac/papers/vol2-issue4/D0242024.pdf

Figure 3 shows how the stability of the C vitamin falls as the temperature gets higher independently whether it is in a juice or a C vitamin tablet.

It is true, that it is a very short time the C vitamin is in contact with the heat in the liposome production, and it hardly can affect the quality.
As it shows in the graphic already at 35 °C the stability is compromised after a few hours, so it hardly can keep the efficiency when stored out of the refrigerator.
As well the C vitamin is sensible to light and air.

My doubt is, how does the C vitamin that hasn't been encapsulated act in the time, and this is not only in the case of the homemade products, but also valid for the commercial products.
Can we avoid a partially oxidated C vitamin?

jara_j
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#130  Post by jara_j » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:50 am

Hi, did anyone tested diy liposomal C with laser beam to assess particle sizes? My is totally transparent for laser beam of red laser pointer 650 nm with little bit scattering. There is almost no attenuation (through 7 cm layer). I have also violet laser pointer (405 nm) and it goes into depth of about 2 cm. My asses is that particle sizes could be less then 325 nm (half of 650 nm). Am I correct?

About storage stability of liposomal C, that is very dificult question. In the patent is result of test of 3 products stored up to 19 days at 50°C. All products were protected by encapsulation in 2ml plastic vials under nitrogen atmosphere. After 19 days original LivOn had 99% of initial value and repacked had 89% of initial value of vitamin C. So the main factor are materials in contact with vitamin C. Who knows how it degrades in this solution. Is someone here who can measure it?

gtrkiwi
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#131  Post by gtrkiwi » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:42 am

Hi all. I have been playing around with the various methods of producing lipo C for some time now and despite my best efforts never seem to be able to produce a brew that doesn't react to the baking soda test. I gather the bicarbonate of soda reacts with the ascorbic acid if it is free, as in not encapsulated and therefor not liposomal. I have just tried the heat method and find that in fact the bicarbonate of soda does not react when you drip it on the mix, but if you give it a bit of a stir up it starts fizzing away all the way through. Any thoughts on this as i am starting to think liposomes don't exist or will any mix fizz up when stirred? Does the fact that it doesn't fizz when dripped on mean there are liposomes formed?
With my last mix I cold mixed all the ingredients and heated in the microwave stopping every 30 seconds to check the temp. Did this all the way to 50 deg Celsius at which time I stirred while allowing to cool. I rightly or wrongly thought the microwave may have the same effect as ultasound albeit at a very different frequency. Any thoughts on this.
I am using NOW Sunflower lecithin which I am told is very high quality.
Cheers.

testingc
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#132  Post by testingc » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:47 am

gtrkiwi wrote:Hi all. I have been playing around with the various methods of producing lipo C for some time now and despite my best efforts never seem to be able to produce a brew that doesn't react to the baking soda test.


Could you explain your 'various methods' a little more in-depth, please? What exactly have you tried? Did you use Chris' original formula at http://qualityliposomalc.com/? - what strength alcohol? Blender-only or blender and ultrasonic, etc?

It'd be helpful to know exactly what you've tried, so we can rule out potential issues.

gtrkiwi wrote:With my last mix I cold mixed all the ingredients and heated in the microwave stopping every 30 seconds to check the temp. Did this all the way to 50 deg Celsius at which time I stirred while allowing to cool. I rightly or wrongly thought the microwave may have the same effect as ultasound albeit at a very different frequency. Any thoughts on this.


Where did you get the idea that microwaves are a replacement for ultrasonic? I'm genuinely curious - I've never seen any recommendations that say one can be replaced with the other. Chris' formula calls for sticking to a certain temperature range. How do you control that? He recommends using the ultrasonic in batches until 32C is reached, for a total of ~1 hour of irradiation. What's the assumed equivalent in using a microwave?

gtrkiwi wrote:I am using NOW Sunflower lecithin which I am told is very high quality.


Have you tried with soy lecithin in Chris' formula? Many of the issues with viscosity people seem to be having here, seems to be a result of choosing a different kind of lecithin. For your first batch, I'd stick as closely as possible to the brands and formula he uses, or you're just introducing new variables that haven't been tested.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#133  Post by jara_j » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:39 am

gtrkiwi wrote:I have just tried the heat method and find that in fact the bicarbonate of soda does not react when you drip it on the mix, but if you give it a bit of a stir up it starts fizzing away all the way through.

That supports my experience, if you want to get clear fluid, don't stir it while cooling and let it few hours in quiet. You get almost transparent fluid and then if you stir it, it changes to milky. Particles becomes bigger and some of them may destroys.

gtrkiwi wrote:I rightly or wrongly thought the microwave may have the same effect as ultasound albeit at a very different frequency. Any thoughts on this.

I don't think so, it's only temperature efect, you can use infrared lamp or other heat source to make this. I tried it. I use microwave because it is fast so minimum of C is lost.

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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#134  Post by gtrkiwi » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:55 am

Back again, various methods......
started with the you tube type method, simply soak, blend, and then ultra sound directly in the machine whilst stirring. Would not have a clue whether liposomes were formed or not, VC does not seem to have too much effect on number twos for me or maybe this method really worked? Didnt know about testing with baking soda at this stage.
Then I found Chris's website, www.qualityliposomalc.com and began making my brews according to the instruction given there. Seemed to be well researched and written so I had been using this method keeping the temperature below 32 deg Celsius and following the steps as laid out.
Alcohol content from memory is about 12%. Used sunflower lecithin as there are a lot of negatives surrounding soy, even non GM stuff so avoided it.
Also used borosilicate glass beakers to ultra sound in. I was as scientific and precise as I could be making the stuff but it always seemed to react to baking soda test.
Then I found the "new" heating method. If liposomes are formed at transition temp of around 45 C as the lecithin cooled, I wondered then if Chris was correct is stating lipsomes were destroyed or began to deteriorate at temperatures over 32 C.
So I began making brews using the heat method to produce HM liposomes. I first heated on the stove in a pot stirring the whole time and checking the temp using an infra red thermometer. Then added the VC as it cooled and ultra-sounded when finished. Used glycerin and alcohol. I wondered if the alcohol remained after coming into contact with heat. I suspect it evaporated out pretty quickly.
My last brew I pre mixed all the ingredients and then began heating in the microwave. Used 20 second bursts and then stirred and checked the temp with my infra red thermometer. Took it up to about 47 C and stirred until cooled down. I did not ultra-sound this brew. This is the mix that did not react to the baking soda, that is until i stirred it. then it fizzed all the way through.
The Idea of the microwave is not based on any thing in particular. I simply thought that because microwaves heat using radio waves that agitate and vibrate water molecules at an atomic level, then maybe the micro waves could help form liposomes just as ultra-sound does. As I said, no clue whether or not science supports my brain wave. Probably best still ultra-sound.
Cheers.

Jacquie
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Re: New Method for Very High Potency Liposomal Vitamin C

Post Number:#135  Post by Jacquie » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:30 pm

No additional information to add to the making of liposomal C, but I did want to say I really appreciate the way the posters in this thread are trying to be as specific and careful as possible in describing their methods and results in attempting to make lipo. It makes the quality of the information here pretty outstanding and useful, and helps in my attempts (and others I've talked to who've read it) to improve on my own lipo making. Thank you to all.


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