Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

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eDOC
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#46  Post by eDOC » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:02 pm

zarfas wrote:
eDOC wrote:BTW, I don't Google, make up or read others work. What I post is based on my clinical experiences and knowledge.

eDOC!!


thanks Edoc, Im still dubious,I was dubios about 10g vit C, but I understood the MOA and I saw changes in people taking lots of grams of VitC


EDOC

you think my dad, who is type 2 diabetic AND has A-fib should take 3+ grams of B5?


zarfaz, 3 grams/day in a divided dose would be enough. Mix it with oral DMSO, (as I replied to your PM.)

The product from the link looks fine, but I haven't tried any Purebulk products. You are very resourceful, educated young man.


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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#47  Post by zarfas » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:40 pm

eDOC wrote:The product from the link looks fine, but I haven't tried any Purebulk products. You are very resourceful, educated young man.

thank you, sir
Purebulk is where I get about half my Vit C
25kg for $500.
https://purebulk.com/vitamin-c-ascorbic-acid-powder/

Dr levey talks about a vit C drink each morning to get the GI system moving, so I add a heaping spoonful to water(RO-water) and drink it down... gets me going
taking lysine,
vit k
vit k2
mg
coq10
bvitamins
soon, B5 alone

thanks for the help!!

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#48  Post by eDOC » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:58 am

zarfas wrote:
thanks for the help!!


You're welcome zarfas.

eDOC!!
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#49  Post by ofonorow » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:54 am

PS: Owen never took it seriously till he read about Dr. Leung and his work.........
True, and I never took DMSO seriously until reading about your cases as spread throughout this forum :D

A one year study of 100 people WITHOUT side effects is impressive.

As far as the "hair loss" issue that has been reported, we suspect there is some competition with biotin - i.e., when the mega b5 is ingested, the normally very low amount of biotin in the diet/supplements is blocked.. Now the inositol connection is new, thank you forum,

Inositol is a B-vitamin-like nutrient found naturally in whole grains, beans, nuts, and fruits. It is also made by the body and is available as a dietary supplement. There are nine types of inositol occurring in nature. Two forms, myo-inositol and D-chiro-inositol, have specific functions in our cells.


and the problem with anecdotes, is that when this person added Inositol - they may have also added biotin.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#50  Post by ofonorow » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:42 am

Butt Pucks" :mrgreen: How do you make them sweet without sugar...stevia?


We were prepared to add stevia/xylitol (although there is risk of diarrhea in some people with xylitol) if the taste was obnoxious because of the B5, LEF Mix and protein. We may still have to, but the dark chocolate is pretty overwhelming. We started with the "no bake" brownie recipes you can find on the internet (because we didn't want the heat to deplete the nutrients). Basically a fruit, such as appricots or dates, becomes the "glue" that holds it together. (Trader Joes sells something similar - without the B5/Vitamins and Protein) but they apparently don't have all their products on the web. Otherwise I'd show our current model. (Evolved from a brownie to a circular smaller "puck" because when you are on B5, you are not hungry and an entire brownie was too much.)

As far as a previous comment that it takes days to go into ketosis - only if you are deficient in Conezyme A. With an ample supply of B5, so far, no one has gone into ketosis - exactly as Leung described in 1995. The designer of the Butt Pucks is a "little" overweight herself, is so experienced at dieting that she can tell by the taste in her mouth when she goes into ketosis. She has been on about 7200 pantethine. No ketosis. She is steadily losing weight. She said this is the easiest weight loss program she has ever been on. Her (and my) biggest problems are the new wardrobe that will be required, and how to get from here to there.. (I can buy suspenders). I have already lost 4 inches around my waist.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#51  Post by johnyascorbate » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:16 am

ofonorow wrote:
I have already lost 4 inches around my waist.


That's amazing. How long have you been on B5, how many calories would you say you are consuming per day, and how long will it take you to hit your target weight?

I was on pantothenic acid for a short while and had some great benefits but ran into some problems early on. I encountered this same problem while attempting high dose niacinamide. This may sound weird but my body holds on to Riboflavin from the B Complex for much longer than it has any business doing, regardless of how much water I drink. I could drink 2 gallons of water and my urine is still yellow from the B2. Without taking B3 or B5, my urine does get yellow from the B2 in the complex, but a few hours later it will become diluted, which is normal. I did ask Johnwen, and he said the amount of riboflavin I'm receiving is very high and poorly excreted through the urine. I understand that, but without taking B2 or B5 my urine is normal a few hours later. I also have mild gastro symptoms on the B5 and B3. Because of these two symptoms, I am no longer taking B5, which sucks because I know I'm missing out on some benefits- but I don't feel good. I don't know if something is wrong with kidneys(there is not) or why the extra high dose of either B5 or B3 is for some reason keeping the B2 in the body. I tried switching to pantethine, but ran into the same problem. I know I could stop taking the B complex/Multi to avoid the urine problem, but I shouldn't have to deprive my body of the B vitamins.

I don't mean to hijack to topic, but this does relate to my B5 experience, and B5 is side effect free in just about everyone except me.
Owen, does this happen to you? Are you peeing yellow from the B2 in the Complex/Multi all day while taking the high dose B5?
If Johnwen or eDoc have any more suggestions, I'm open to anything.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#52  Post by RatherBeUnknown » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:21 am

For me vitamin b5 in dosages at 1g and above can produce serious hyperthermia, low blood sugar symptoms (muscle weakness, etc.) and very rarely an androgenic feeling (vitamin b5 is supposed to upregulate 5alpha reductase or something).

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#53  Post by zarfas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:23 am

RatherBeUnknown wrote: (vitamin b5 is supposed to upregulate 5alpha reductase or something).

so increased hair-loss?

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#54  Post by zarfas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:27 am

ofonorow wrote:As far as a previous comment that it takes days to go into ketosis - only if you are deficient in Conezyme A. With an ample supply of B5, so far, no one has gone into ketosis - exactly as Leung described in 1995.


why do you keep saying this?

you'd only go into ketosis with a lack of carbs, like under 20g a day

if you are a no carb diet, then you will lose like 20lbs in 2 weeks because you will use up the glycogen(stored sugar) in your liver, kidneys, muscles
and glycogen holds water,, so no glycogen, no water, MEANS WEIGHT LOSS

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#55  Post by RatherBeUnknown » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:36 am

zarfas wrote:
RatherBeUnknown wrote: (vitamin b5 is supposed to upregulate 5alpha reductase or something).

so increased hair-loss?

Hair loss from B5 is a side-effect in some but it's most likely caused by a B5-induced biotin deficiency and not hormonal.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#56  Post by zarfas » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:42 am

RatherBeUnknown wrote:
zarfas wrote:
RatherBeUnknown wrote: (vitamin b5 is supposed to upregulate 5alpha reductase or something).

so increased hair-loss?

Hair loss from B5 is a side-effect in some but it's most likely caused by a B5-induced biotin deficiency and not hormonal.

and why am I taking more b5?
fat-loss?
any other reason?
on my plant based diet and taking vit B complex, 2-3x a day(as B vitamins are water soluable), i find it hard to believe I have a biotin issue

Biotin is a B-complex vitamin that has been identified as a necessary nutrient for a century, but has only begun to be understood in the past two decades. It has also been previously referred to as coenzyme R, vitamin H, and vitamin B7, with the different names attesting to the confusion surrounding its role in normal metabolism.

Biotin first came to the attention of researchers for what is still its most famous characteristic—that raw egg whites can interfere with biotin nutrition. (For more on this please see the Impact of Cooking, Storage, and Processing section below.) More recently, we have learned about its central role in many pathways of metabolism. Most importantly, we see that biotin plays key roles in fat and sugar metabolism, roles that make deficiency of biotin show up in multiple and unrelated ways.

There is still much we don't know about biotin, however. Importantly, there are still major questions about how much biotin is needed to prevent deficiency.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#57  Post by ofonorow » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:50 am

Zarfas, why not read the 3 page Leung paper? Then you would understand that ketosis is an unnatural, or at least expensive or wasteful fat burning state. One can starve themselves for as long as they like, so long as they have fat stores - and sufficient B5 to make Coenzyme A - and the body will efficiently burn fat - AND NOT GO INTO KETOSIS. This is the brilliance behind Leung's theory. I keep saying it because if you are on a low-carb diet, low calorie diet, and you enter Ketosis - this indicates a B5 deficiency.

And to everyone else, I appreciate the report of "side effects" taking higher doses of B5... (And unless there are pure powders, some may be due to the fillers or elevated calcium.) But johnyascorbate's case is interesting! (And reminds me of people who use coffee to fall asleep. We are all different.)


johnyascorbate wrote:
ofonorow wrote:
I have already lost 4 inches around my waist.


That's amazing. How long have you been on B5, how many calories would you say you are consuming per day, and how long will it take you to hit your target weight?


I started Pantethine around July 23rd. (I made a post in the testosterone topic. I said I felt like a 20-year old the next morning.) However, until the "butt pucks" are ready, I don't have a good calorie count. I started with 2-3 days of fasting, which turned out to be easy (because Leung mentioned that most people go into ketosis after 2-3 days of fasting. I was trying to jump start the fat burning process) , but social obligations have interfered so I don't really consider myself to be on a calorie restriction yet. Once the stomach is stretched..sigh.. The people in the study are apparently losing what Leung reported. He said about 2 lbs per week. There is an increase in water weight (as you must keep hydrated burning fat) but our clothes are not fitting and people have already commented that I have seemed to have lost weight. Less than one month. We have a prototype online study tool, so I can monitor the progress - weight loss is occurring, and it is slow and steady. My target weight (when I was in the Air Force :-) is 50 lbs less than I am now, so 25 weeks (if only 2 lbs per week) or 6 months. Something tells me that when I begin restricting calories - it will only require 4 months. No one has reported any side effects.

I was on pantothenic acid for a short while and had some great benefits but ran into some problems early on. I encountered this same problem while attempting high dose niacinamide. This may sound weird but my body holds on to Riboflavin from the B Complex for much longer than it has any business doing, regardless of how much water I drink. I could drink 2 gallons of water and my urine is still yellow from the B2. Without taking B3 or B5, my urine does get yellow from the B2 in the complex, but a few hours later it will become diluted, which is normal. I did ask Johnwen, and he said the amount of riboflavin I'm receiving is very high and poorly excreted through the urine. I understand that, but without taking B2 or B5 my urine is normal a few hours later. I also have mild gastro symptoms on the B5 and B3. Because of these two symptoms, I am no longer taking B5, which sucks because I know I'm missing out on some benefits- but I don't feel good. I don't know if something is wrong with kidneys(there is not) or why the extra high dose of either B5 or B3 is for some reason keeping the B2 in the body. I tried switching to pantethine, but ran into the same problem. I know I could stop taking the B complex/Multi to avoid the urine problem, but I shouldn't have to deprive my body of the B vitamins.

I don't mean to hijack to topic, but this does relate to my B5 experience, and B5 is side effect free in just about everyone except me.
Owen, does this happen to you? Are you peeing yellow from the B2 in the Complex/Multi all day while taking the high dose B5?
If Johnwen or eDoc have any more suggestions, I'm open to anything.


First, if you decide to try NOW foods Conenzyme A, I would appreciate a report on what happens to your urine and whether you have the same gastro problems. (Studying the absorption pattern of a CoA supplement is on my "list" and you have a unique way of evaluating whether there is value in the complete conenzyme.)

Now if the urine is yellow, doesn't that mean that you are spilling B3 - riboflavin? Or that without B3/B5, your body holds on to B2? Not being an expert in the B complex - well named - and after reading Leung, (before his CoA explanation, it was noticed that increasing B vitamins (maybe B12 and B6) sometimes made acne worse!) I think you should provide what the body needs in ample amounts. Leung's explanation was that these other 2 B vitamins could start metabolic functions that used up the available B5 - creating the symptom of acne. We often read that you should take the B-vitamins in combination, as a complex, rather than alone. And if you do have some special genetic anomaly, most of genetic syndromes that I am aware of require more, not less, of certain vitamins. So spilling B2 would indicate to me (since you have a visual cue) to take more B2 - but also increase Niacin and B5 (and make sure B6 and B12 and biotin are also in good supply). As far as the gastro upset - maybe some kind of enteric coated B-complex?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#58  Post by johnyascorbate » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:59 am

ofonorow wrote: So spilling B2 would indicate to me (since you have a visual cue) to take more B2 - but also increase Niacin and B5 (and make sure B6 and B12 and biotin are also in good supply). As far as the gastro upset - maybe some kind of enteric coated B-complex?


Thanks for the input, Owen.
My body is holding onto B2-riboflavin- for well over 24 hours- regardless of how much I drink only when I am taking high dose B5 OR high dose B3. When I take a normal B-complex and multi-vitamin, like I do everyday, without the high dose B5 or B3, I do not experience the holding on of the B2- yellow urine all day. Nor do I have the mild gastro problems. For these reasons I can't continue to take B5. My body should not be holding onto the riboflavin for that long, and since I don't know why it is happening, and this does not appear to be a normal complaint, I cannot say that what is causing this is a good or bad thing to my body and health.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#59  Post by confused1 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:16 am

How do you know your body is holding onto riboflavin? Not doubting you, just curious how one determines that.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#60  Post by zarfas » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:44 am

ofonorow wrote:[color=#000080]Zarfas, why not read the 3 page Leung paper? Then you would understand that ketosis is an unnatural, or at least expensive or wasteful fat burning state. One can starve themselves for as long as they like, so long as they have fat stores - and sufficient B5 to make Coenzyme A - and the body will efficiently burn fat - AND NOT GO INTO KETOSIS. This is the brilliance behind Leung's theory. I keep saying it because if you are on a low-carb diet, low calorie diet, and you enter Ketosis - this indicates a B5 deficiency.
b]


I've never seen someone die from starvation and still be fat, so they went so long without food,they ran out of b5 and thus couldnt use the fat they were carrying
First thought that comes to mind is the Movie, CASTAWAY or the kids in africa, BOTH starving and no B-vitamis

so you are saying Leung proves that ketosis is not because of a low/no carb diet? but because of a lack of B5?
so no B5 and yet you still burn fat??



you have a link to that paper?
I musta missed it

what I understand about ketosis, I learned from the keto-man, aka, lyle mcdonald., who wrote
[b]The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet

The Ketogenic Diet is the first and only book to objectively examine in-depth the scientific evidence regarding low-carbohydrate/ketogenic diets. It is meant to be a reference manual for low-carbohydrate diets; it is unlike any other book on low-carbohydrate diets that you have ever read or seen.

Covering every topic in extreme detail, The Ketogenic Diet addresses everything from the basic physiology of how the body adapts to a low-carbohydrate intake, the details of human fuel utilization, the impact of low-carbohydrate diets on body composition and many, many more.

Of course, none of the above is useful without practical application guidelines. Details on how to optimize low-carbohydrate diets for different goals (such as fat loss, bodybuilding and endurance performance) are discussed along with three distinct types of low-carbohydrate diets. In addition, the book includes a complete discussion of resistance, aerobic and anaerobic exercise physiology along with specific training programs for different goals and different levels of trainee

At 325 pages and containing over 600 scientific references, this will be your complete reference for ketogenic diets.

Please note: this book does not include information on the ketogenic diet for adolescent epilepsy (the topic is discussed briefly). I highly suggest The Ketogenic Diet: A Treatment for Epilepsy, 3rd Edition (Paperback) by Freeman, Freeman and Kelly (link will take you to Amazon.com page).


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