Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Focus on Hong Kong Dr. Leung's vitamin B5 discovery that megadoses of pantothenic acid maintain metabolism of a calorie deficit, leading to sustained weight loss without hunger, weakness or ketosis

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#76  Post by ofonorow » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:58 am

But wouldn't any typical adult experience significant weight loss on only 1000 calories per day ? Are you saying that this is not the case, or maybe you are saying that B5 causes fat-loss rather than protein-loss ???


The difference is that most people would go into ketosis - an "energy wasting" state. Not only is ketosis avoided, but so is hunger. (You have to read Leung's paper, or the Jeffrey Dach article for the details. Leung claims that ketosis is the reason most diets fail - and people gain the weight back.


Weight loss is still fundamentally linked to insulin and the body's sensitivity thereof.
But, only when carbs are involved, right?. I wish I understood exactly how the body differentiates between a high carb meal and a high fat/protein meal, but it seems to.


I guess if those 1000 calories were all from white sugar, ie. refined carbs, then you will not lose as much weight as if it were vegetables, good fat and protein.


Just watched a sales video for a fat-loss program which claims this isn't true. Calories are all that matters - not the nutrients in the foods. Cites an experiment.

Maybe the paleo diet delivers sufficient B5 to facilitate the dramatic weigh-loss experienced by most, if not all who stay committed to it over an extended period of time. I have never seen anyone fail to drop weight (fat) when they start paleo and continue for at least 30 days, granted my sample group is limited.
I think you are correct, that with limited food intake in general, there is "enough" B5 which is ubiquitous in most foods. Just not enough to cover how much food we in modern civilization consume.

But equally as important as nutrition, are sleep and exercise (HIIT and strength), though now I'm starting to get off-topic !

Maybe - this has turned into a long topic, so you may have missed much of the lead in. Again, consistent slow weight loss - without hunger and/or ketosis. Overcoming the reason most diets fail.
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#77  Post by Montmorency » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:00 pm

[quote="ofonorow"]Montgomery, anxious to hear your future reports as you seem to be an expert on Ketosis. The beauty of the Leung approach is NO KETOSIS, and if you enter it, then Leung says you may have to go up to 20 grams of B5 daily. I am not sure what "ketogenic range of the LCHF spectrum" means, but I think it may become moot with B5 :D


Thanks Owen, but I don't claim to be an expert. I have done a fair amount of reading around the subject, although I need to refresh my memory, perhaps from Steve Phinney's books that I have. He is an expert especially in ketogenic diets for athletes, especially racing cyclists. There appears to be a limit to the rate at which we can burn our own body fat, although I think he says that well-trained athletes on well-formulated ketogenic diets can burn it at a more rapid rate than the general population.

By "ketogenic range of the LCHF spectrum" :-) I just meant keeping carbs as low as possible, but also keeping protein as low as possible as well. This was an insight I got back in early January (primarily from Jimmy Moore, actually). Figures vary, but people like Phinney usually say you need about 0.5g of protein for every kg of lean body mass. (Ron Rosedale is someone who would argue for a lower amount). The idea is that if we overdo the protein, i.e. take in more than we need for repair/rebuilding muscle, then the excess will be converted to glucose, and it will be similar to taking in excess carbs. When I learned about this, which I was unaware of during my previous attempts at LCHF, I realised that this was (possibly) why I'd never managed to lose as much weight as I'd really wanted, and why it came off so slowly.

I got myself a blood ketone meter, and started measuring my blood ketones, but not all that often as the strips are pricier than regular glucose strips. I did usually get to the levels of blood ketones that the ketogenic "experts" usually recommend, although I didn't agonise over it too much. Partly because of the cost, and the fact that I don't like pricking my fingers all the time, I haven't done it for ages now. But perhaps I ought to, at least now and again, as part of this experiment.

As you may have gathered, there seems to be a major philosophical difference between proponents of ketogenic diets and Dr Leung's ideas: the former regard ketosis as a good thing, and would not recognise the description of ketosis as being "wasteful".

But it might depend on how you define ketosis. Do you mean ketones appearing in the urine? Or ketones appearing in the blood? If the former, then yes, pehaps they are "wasted". But those in the blood are eligible to be transported to the muscles and organs, and burned as fuel.

One reason why I never agonised too much about my blood levels of ketones was the thinking that it wasn't so much the ketones that were important, but whether or not you were "fat-adapted", i.e. your body hard learned to burn fat for fuel rather than just glucose. As I understood it, ketones were a by-product of fat metabolism, but were also themselves candidates for burning as fuel, so the body got two bites at the cherry, so to speak. I've never bothered with urine ketone strips, since I kept reading that they were not reliable, and that the thing to do was measure blood ketones. But perhaps for the purposes of this experiment, I should occasionally also measure urine ketones, to see if I am "wasting" them.

Anyway, I routinely measure bodyweight (daily), and from time to time waist size, and you are welcome to the figures in due course,, together with B5 dosages. I will say I haven't felt too hungry today, on not all that much food (although I don't bother counting calories I'm afraid). And I was 1 lb down on yesterday this morning, but day-to-day fluctuations aren't that significant, I don't think.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#78  Post by sjmusic2 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:31 pm

ofonorow wrote:
The difference is that most people would go into ketosis - an "energy wasting" state. Not only is ketosis avoided, but so is hunger. (You have to read Leung's paper, or the Jeffrey Dach article for the details. Leung claims that ketosis is the reason most diets fail - and people gain the weight back.

As long as you consume >50g of good carbs you typically will not go into ketosis and you should still lose significant weight at those levels. There are a number of instances where ketosis has been demonstrated to be beneficial, eg. epilepsy, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, atherosclerosis, age-related memory loss, even metabolic syndrome/detox..."Mitochondrial levels of the endogenous antioxidant glutathione increase on a ketogenic diet; this is likely a major reason for many of its beneficial effects." Also the actions of BHB are significant. That said, I think ketosis should be used as a short-term tool and not a long-term solution.

But, only when carbs are involved, right?. I wish I understood exactly how the body differentiates between a high carb meal and a high fat/protein meal, but it seems to.

The body possesses multiple pathways to produce glucose (gluconeogenesis controlled by glucagon) from fats and proteins. Insulin deals with glucose once it is in the bloodstream, fills muscle and liver with glycogen first then stores excess as fat. It is antagonistic with glucagon. The typical SAD consumes large quantities of carbs and over time muscles and the liver will become less sensitive to insulin signalling and thus require more insulin secretion to achieve the desired effect and the circle repeats. This ultimately results in the pancreatic fatigue and type-2 diabetes when it can no longer produce sufficient insulin to control the now potentially toxic levels of glucose - ironically insulin also becomes toxic at high levels too. Insulin resistance also blocks amino acids from entering cells and the liver from converting thyroid hormone T4 to T3. Some people are more genetically disposed to insulin resistance then others.

Just watched a sales video for a fat-loss program which claims this isn't true. Calories are all that matters - not the nutrients in the foods. Cites an experiment.

I find it hard to believe that continued over consumption of refined carbs will lead to anything other than pancreatic failure and possibly diabetes unless high exercise levels are involved as they will mitigate some of the insulin resistance caused by the nutritional imbalance.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#79  Post by ofonorow » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:56 am

Leung published in 1995, but his point (in his papers) is that ketones are the product of an inefficient fat burning metabolism. Read his theory.

He wondered why humans go into this inefficient mode? His theory is this is because of a lack of coenzyme A, and thus a lack of vitamin B5. The fact that 100 people went on 10 grams of vitamin B5 for a year, on 1000 calories per day, and most did not go into ketosis is the relevant point. (He mentioned that some in the study had to have 20 grams of vitamin B5 per day to avoid ketosis). Leung's theory also explains acne, and it can not be treated in 2-3 weeks with high dose B5.

I was like everyone else and assumed that ketosis is the natural effect of fat burning with low carbs. I did not know that it was an "emergency" fail safe system. We are currently testing the theory that with sufficient B5, people can lose weight, without ketosis, without hunger, etc. If what Leung says is true, than any idea the ketosis is "good for us" is a rationalization.


A Stone that Kills two Birds: How Pantothenic Acid Unveils the Mysteries of Acne Vulgaris and Obesity
1. Department of Surgery. Hong Kong Central Hospital. Hong Kong
Lit-Hung Leung. M.D.
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1997/pdf/1997-v12n02-p099.pdf
Leung wrote:In the same way, it is quite a mystery that an over-weight person, with an abundance of energy deposited as fat depot, cannot efficiently use this stored fat in times of need as during dieting when food intake does not meet the energy demand. Not only is this precious stored
unavailable,in some cases it is actually squandered . . .


The New Hypothesis of Ketone Body Formation

It seems that the crux of the matter rests on the formation of ketone bodies. So long as mechanism is working efficiently, no ketone bodies will emerge, and the first sign of failure of the mechanism is the appearance of ketone bodies in the blood stream. What then, is the reason for the failure of the mechanism that leads to the formation of ketone bodies? There is no conclusive answer, but there are some clues. It is known that ketone bodies only appear when the body is asked to catabolize a large amount of fat, as when the energy requirement of the body is largely provided by its stored fat.45,46,47

At the point where the body can no longer cope with efficiently breaking down this large amount of fat, ketone bodies appear. To understand
ketone body formation, it seems pertinent to have a good look at the catabolism of fat and fatty acids. 48,49

Briefly, fat catabolism is a process in which the stored fat in the form of triglycerides is first broken down into glycerol and long-chain fatty
acids. These long-chain fatty acids are then serially broken down by a process called B-oxidation in which the long carbon chain is fragmented into units containing two carbon atoms each. Before this can happen, the long-chain carbon has to be activated into its high-energy Coenzyme A ester by reacting the acid with ATP and Coenzyme A. A subsequent cleavage at the B carbon atom of this long carbon chain
by reacting with another molecule of Coenzyme A will spin off a molecule of acetyl-CoA, leaving the original long carbon chain with 2 carbons less but still as a CoA ester. The whole process is then repeated again and again. with each process consuming one molecule of Coenzyme A, until the whole long chain is totally broken down into many fragments of acetyl CoA.

Take for example, palmitic acid, a l6-carbon saturated fatty acid, which is broken down by this process of B oxidation into 8 fragments of acetyl-CoA. It is to be noted that in converting palmitic acid into 8 units of acetyl-CoA, a total of 8 molecules of Coenzyme A is taken up from
the body’s pool of Coenzyme A molecules. All these units of acetyl-CoA will be metabolized via the citric acid cycle, releasing energy in the form of ATP, leaving carbon dioxide and water as the final end products. This is how the body gets its energy from its stored depot fat. And this is what is supposed to happen in an ideal situation, when all the mobilized fat is metabolized completely, with no wastage
of energy.

For very obscured reasons, whenfat is broken down in large quantities, as in fasting, not all the units of acetyl-CoA will go into the citric acid cycle. Some of these units will choose to combine with each other. In the process, 2 molecules of acetyl-CoA will yield one molecule of ac-
etoacetyl CoA and one molecule of Coenzyme A. The acetoacetyl- CoA molecule is very unstable, and will rapidly decompose itself into one molecule of acetoacetic acid and another molecule of Coenzyme A Then, through a process of decarboxylation, which is an irreversible
process, acetoacetic acid is turned into acetone, better known as a ketone body. The accumulation of any significant amount of ketone bodies in the body results in a certain degree of acidosis. To off set such acidosis, the body will try to eliminate the ketone bodies in the urine as well as in the breath. This is effectively a wastage of precious stored energy that is originally intended for emergency use.
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#80  Post by sjmusic2 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:46 am

Not sure if that response is directed @ me, but I have read Leung's hypothesis.

My point though has nothing to do with Leung's theory, what I am saying is that you can achieve the very same results (significant weight loss) without going into ketosis and without supplementing mega-doses of B5 by controlling carbs between 50-100g per day.

Image

from Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson.

I highly recommend reading Primal Blueprint or at the very least browsing http://www.MarksDailyApple.com for lots of free, science-based information on the topics of nutrition, health and weight loss. As with anything, do your own research and form your own opinions on the validity of what is presented.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#81  Post by ofonorow » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:12 am

My point though has nothing to do with Leung's theory, what I am saying is that you can achieve the very same results (significant weight loss) without going into ketosis and without supplementing mega-doses of B5 by controlling carbs between 50-100g per day.


Thanks for the pointer. However, if true, why then to people seem to fall off the bandwagon and gain the weight back? What is the rate of weight loss, and if you have a preferred argument/ link, I'd like to read it.

Added, I did look over that site. Interesting. I missed seeing anything about ketosis? (Are you on the program? Does it work for you?) I did notice that the most popular supplement has about 100 times the "recommended" amount of vitamin B5 :D (e.g. 250 mg) Providing the body some carbohydrates to burn, may be a good idea, especially for some people. If you are trying to metabolize and burn your stores of fat, you would go into ketosis without vitamin B5. Unless I am missing something, this would a slower fat burning program.
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#82  Post by sjmusic2 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:36 am

However, if true, why then to people seem to fall off the bandwagon and gain the weight back?

The short answer is that most don't fall off if they make it a lifestyle-change commitment rather than a temporary 'diet' (fad).

What is the rate of weight loss

Rate of weight loss is subjective, each of us is different and there are many variables to consider so there is no specific number, but if you read the success stories on the site (and forum) you will see there are accounts of major weight-loss without hunger. The benefits are not limited to weight-loss though, many see other conditions improve including auto-immune and metabolic diseases. I will emphasize that this is not a nutrition-only program, sleep, exercise and stress-reduction are also key components.

if you have a preferred argument/ link, I'd like to read it.

The best recommendation I can give you is to read the book, though even just browsing the website and forum you will learn a tremendous amount. Use the search tool for specific areas of interest.

I missed seeing anything about ketosis?

Hope you don't mind if I use links rather than clog up the thread with articles...

Sisson has been heavily researching ketosis lately and is about to release a book... http://www.marksdailyapple.com/get-ready-to-reset-and-go-keto-incredible-pre-order-bonus-offer/

This from 2008 ! http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-ketosis/
His 'definitive' guide http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-definitive-guide-to-keto/
Is keto for everyone ? http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-keto-for-everyone-cautions-caveats-and-contraindications/

There are lots more ketosis-related posts...
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/?s=ketosis

Are you on the program? Does it work for you?

I have been Primal since around 2010, my first experience involved getting down to under 100g carbs per day (many times lower, but rarely into ketosis-zone). I went through 10 days of Herxheimer, then when I came out the other side my energy levels went through he roof and I had become fat-adapted. I still play soccer competitively (aged 50) against college and high schoolers, rarely eat before a morning game and have no issues running and sprinting for 90mins. I will add one note that when I first changed to primal I did notice an initial drop in energy, presumably because I was still adapted to burning carbs as my primary energy source.
There are definitely days when I allow myself to cheat a little without guilt, though my body will frequently remind me that I'm not eating high quality food ! And the best part of being Primal...fried eggs and bacon...and butter :)

I also took the liberty of sending Leung's theory to Sisson to see if he had any thoughts. It's a long shot because he receives thousands of emails daily, but I'll let you know if anything comes of it.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#83  Post by ofonorow » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:01 am

I read the first link from 2008,

The Primal Blueprint recommends “generally” about 100-150 grams of carbohydrates a day, but many who follow it or the related paleo principles choose diets that fall in the realm of 50-80 grams a day, a practice (along with IF) that spurs the body to turn on ketosis as needed.


The assumption is that ketosis is the mode we use to burn fats. I made that assumption until I read Leung's theory. So far, there is nothing in this program that I see that conflicts with Leung. Furthermore, it would seem that adding B5, avoiding ketosis, would make the program work even better (on the lower amount of carbohydrates mentioned above.) His reasoning for having some carbs (fruits/veges) seems to be that you cannot get all the nutrients necessary without adding these foods.

Which book would you recommend starting with?
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#84  Post by ofonorow » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:51 am

??? Ketosis is a wasteful way to burn fat - because it leaves ketone bodies. With coenzyme A - a more efficient, clean fat burn is accomplished that doesn't leave ketone bodies - which the body otherwise has to deal with.
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#85  Post by Johnwen » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:48 pm

so lots of coenzyme A , so what exactly does more B5 do to "burn more fat?”


This is kind of like saying, “What does gasoline and oil do to a car?”

In all living organisms, Coenzyme A is synthesized in a five-step process that requires four molecules of ATP, from pantothenate and cysteine.
Coenzyme A then functions as an acyl group carrier. It assists in transferring fatty acids from the cytoplasm to mitochondria

This thread is entertaining to say the least! I’m interested to see where it leads! :?:
So this is just my 2 cents for now! Carry On! 8)
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#86  Post by sjmusic2 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:01 pm

ofonorow wrote:Which book would you recommend starting with?

Start with "The Primal Blueprint" by Mark Sisson.

You could also read his definitive guide to keto (2nd link in my article list above)

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#87  Post by ofonorow » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:14 am

Ordered and read.
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#88  Post by johndom1 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:19 am

I began a low carb diet Feb 2017 after my heart attack.. At the time, I started "South Beach" at the advice of my Dr. This is characterized by "leaner" meats and more "processed" type foods. The more research I did on diet, I realized that I more "whole foods" (less processed, non-GMO, closer to the dirt and animal). I also realized that if I ate more high-quality fat, I would need less protein and less filler food.

A month later, March 2017, I switch to a low carb, high fat diet, more natural diet. Since then, I have never been hungry, I have never been in full blown ketosis. I tried to go ketonic but never could make it. I eat tons of vegetables, mainly non-starch, cruciferous. I eat smaller portions of meat, but higher in fat. I am completely satiated, happy and have no cravings -- none.

I have limited my carb intake to ~15 grams per meal (these come strictly from fiber rich vegetables).

I have lost, on average, about 10 pounds per month. Between Feb and July, I lost 60 pounds. I have tracked my weight and recorded it once a week. My weight loss has been segments:
Feb - Mar: large, blocky weight loses of 5 or 6 pounds one week, none the next
Apr - no weight loss but, I did lose inches around my waist
May - July: very smooth, consistent weight loss of 3 pounds per week
Aug - no weight loss, I did appear to "tone up" during this period
Sept - weight loss has resumed, 5 pounds 1st week.

I tried B5 (3 grams per day divided) in Aug. It dried my face, reduced oil production in my hair and I lost no weight. I switched to pantethine, it gave my diarrhea after a week. It may or may not have restarted my weight loss.

I have had great results on low carb. Because of the heart attack, I also have my blood tested and all my cholesterol parameters have shockingly increased.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#89  Post by ofonorow » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:55 am

Congratulations, except for the last sentence. But since cholesterol is vital for life, you probably don't have anything to worry about. Curious, what are the cholesterol numbers?
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#90  Post by johndom1 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:10 pm

I am sorry, very poor choice of words on my part. I meant that the quality of my numbers has increased, not necessarily the numerical value. Sorry, sorry.

I don't worry about LDL but it has not gone up, it has lowered a little bit.
Triglycerides have dropped 30% on last check.
HDL has risen by 10% on last check.

My last check was ~3 months.


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