Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

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Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:03 am

It was suggested that we begin a thread on vitamin B5, which like vitamin C and niacin seems to have much value way above the recommended daily allowances or dietary intakes. (There may not even be a recommended dietary intake for vitamin B5, but I have seen 5 - 7 mg.)

Good idea and here it is. First I have collected all the recent posts about B5 so we can view it all in one place.

OVERVIEW

Co-enzyme A
Fat Burning/Weight Loss
Acne Cure
Adrenal Hormones

The areas of most interest at this point are the fact B5 is the "vitamin" required to make Coenzyme A. The body can make everything else it needs. So the result of more of vitamin B5 is to help the body create more of Coenzyme A. For example, Pantethine is a more complete, or at least closer to Coenzyme A, and it is thought to be more metabolically active (because the body has to convert Pantothenic Acid to Pantethine). For this reason, in theory, less P is required to achieve the desired beneficial effects, i.e., overcome the lack of Coenzyme A.

A CoA deficiency leads to body fat, loss of hormone production, and acne.


COMBINED B5 POSTS


ofonorow wrote:Finally, if memory serves, the latest knowledge is that of vitamin B5... When I say late, what I really mean is knowledge that has been ignored, for perhaps as long as I have lived. B5 may be involved in more than 50 metabolic pathways, is clearly related to adrenal and hormone function, and a lack of B5 may lead to weight gain. And a "high B5 dose" according to the Linus Pauling institute is 50 times their max recommendation for vitamin C.

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13310&start=15#p48483

Dr. Levy shared some important knowledge with me that may help me reactivate my own adrenals. The adrenals make all the steroid hormones (including pregnenolone, DHEA, androsteinedione and testosterone, (plus female hormones), etc. According to the Levy material there is a co-factor (Coenzyme A) that if in short supply, results in low adrenal output..... Basically vitamin B5 - pantothenate- in multiple gram amounts, is the outside requirement to make this co-factor.. His material indicates that like vitamin C, persons have taken 10-20 g of B5 daily for over a year without side -effects - they just seemed to get healthier. (Imagine a study of 100 people taking 10 grams vitamin C for one year! Probably 10% would have reported severe diarrhea)

So if you do ry multiple gram amounts of a "vitamin" (B5), please let us know if that helps with your libido :D Give it a month or two.


http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13303#p48252

Okay, so I tried what I recommended to you on myself last night (thank you again Dr. Levy!).. I took 6 600 mg vitamin B5 around dinner, and 6 600 mg of vitamin B5 before bed. (Total 7,200 mg) (Conenzyme A precursor Pantethine)

I woke up feeling like a 20 year old :D :D :D :D

I had no idea it would work that fast.

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13303#p48283

pamojja wrote:
2 g per day Calcium Pantothenate gives about 180 mg of calcium, not that bad. I personally didn't experience anything bad at such low levels of calcium for many years. And some expensive Pantethine added brings the intake further up. Just make sure your Magnesium intake is multiple of that, and don't miss out on vitamin K2
.


You're right in saying 180 mg of calcium is not too much, but 2 grams is nowhere near the 10-20 grams recommended. At that dose you will be taking in too much calcium.

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13303&start=15#p48292


Back to this discussion, while interesting, this thread has diverged from testosterone. And there is, in my opinion, must misinformation in this thread - intentional or not: Re: vitamin B5. (We are developing a weight-loss product, so I don't want to divulge everything we know or are doing at this point, but we have looked into the "side effects." Our Conclusion So Far: Vitamin C and/or water probably have more real side effects - at any affordable dose of B5. If you can afford more than 20,000/day - you are in the category of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet)

Turns out that there is a way to titrate down to the lowest necessary dose of vitamin B5 -- but for now, that is a "trade secret."

Hair loss has been reported in some of the weight-loss forums by posters reportedly taking rather modest doses of vitamin B5. For all we know, the post by onne person was a troll, or on Chemo, but assuming it is true, there is other knowledge about B5. It can "use up" other B-vitamins, by speeding up metabolic reactions, and other B-vitamins can "use up" body stores of B5. Over the years, we read that the "B complex" is important - probably because of these observed interactions.

Basically, B5 becomes Conezyme A. Weight loss ( Inefficient lipid processing ) and certain other conditions (including INADEQUATE production of adrenal hormones) are dependent on Coenzyme A, so a deficiency can lead to various syndromes. It is a fascinating new avenue of research for me personally (i.e., someone with adrenal malfunction.) . From all I have read so far, we are talking about a substance, vitamin B5, that is safer than Vitamin C or water! (Per other posts, LPI labels as "high dose" 10,000 mg (10 grams) of vitamin B5 - probably on the basis of the studies that Levy sent to me.)

We had noticed a single post in a weight-loss forum about "hair loss."I agree with the follow-up poster who mentioned that he added Biotin - and the second poster, nor anyone else, has had no problem with hair loss. The reported weight losses in that forum on B5 matched the rate in the paper Levy sent me, i.e., about 2 lbs per week. So to be safe, our product will include Biotin. (And we will recommend 1 or 2 Super-B complexes)

There is another common condition caused by inadequate CoEnzyme A - (thus too little B5) - which is sometimes exacerbated by supplementing either B12 and/or B6. (ACNE) The Chinese doctor's theory is that adding these two vitamins can accelerate the body's use of B5 - depending on biochemical individuality. Again, depleting B5 stores creates a Coenzyme A shortage. When you have "enough" B5 (and thus Coenzyme A) you don't have to worry about either of these two B vitamins exacerbating the "condition." (I have my reasons for not saying what the condition/disease is - we don't want to accidentally create a drug, because B5 is a cure for the condition.)

The other misinformation is the advice to rely or use HRT - Hormone Replacement Therapy - first. Why use any HRT, if you can restart your own hormones with "adequate" B5 supplementation? Normally, if you take a hormone - it depresses your own ability to make the hormone. There are feedback mechanisms. For me, DHEA is very important, however, I know that taking it can prevent my body from making its own, etc.

By the way, DHEA is a precursor to Androsteinedione, which is a precursor to Testosterone (and all the hormones come from cholesterol, and then pregnenolone - the mother hormone. For me, up until now (with my new massive vitamin B5 intake), pregnenolone did not seem to make up for my abnormally low total serum cholesterol.

As far as ED versus Libido. Libido is connected with testosterone's affect in the brain - in both men and women, but men generally have 10 times more testosterone than women. This is the desire. (So making more of your own T should increase desire.)

ED has a lot to do with blood flow (Pauling therapy, vitamin E, arginine, etc.) but I have learned on my journey that the affect diabetes can have on nerves plays and important role in creating ED - no matter how the blood can flow or not flow. You want to fix the plumbing, but that may not do it.

We learn from Richard Bernstein, MD, DIABETES SOLUTION, that everything that goes wrong with Type I diabetics can be corrected if they do one thing - control their blood sugar to around 80 mg/dl. By the way, Bernstein is WRONG (in my opinion) about vitamin C (because it affects his meters, he is down on C) but he is the oldest living Type I diabetic.

Guess what, if you turn your body from an inefficient carb burner into a more efficient fat burner - your blood sugar will remain low. So B5 is likely to have a strong, secondary effect on ED - after the blood sugar is lowered.

And did I mention that B5 allows you to diet without hunger. I have been fasting (after my B5 loading dose) for 3 days. NO HUNGER :D :D :D

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13303&start=45#p48484

Are you still taking 7.2 G's/day of pantethine?



I have cut back slightly. (Partially for supply reasons.) We are using that amount (16 -- 600 mg pills, split 4 ties daily) as a "loading dose" in our weight-loss study, to make sure everyone's tissues are saturated; before we begin the calorie restriction (which I tried to jumpstart by fasting, but couldn't resist a fine meal last night with friends :-) ) A doctor friend and biochemist has found other research indicating that while "Pantethine" is poorly named, it may be 10 times better than ordinary vitamin B5 for Co-enzyme A activity - which is what we are primarily interested in for weight loss.

And as I said, there is a way to determine the lowest dosage necessary to promote sustained weight loss, and after that process begins (if it begins) and we are confident, people who want to will titrate while we are monitoring their weight. (There is a chance that this will turn into an online study of thousands... but more on that later.)



The original Dr. Leung study was with panothetic acid - ordinary B5, which in 1995 was probably calcium-panothenate. 10 grams, and they sometimes had to titrate UP to 20 grams. As you have surmised, our study will be with Panathine. We hope to at least duplicate the results, but there is a chance it won't work, and we'll have to go back to regular vitamin B5. This is what experiments are for!

So far results are good, for both regular B5 (10 g) and high dose Pantethine (7.2 g) and we'll be posting more information about joining the online study

I wish I could post the paper - did I mention the Hong Kong doc Leung should have been nominated for a Nobel prize? This is the thought that I get every time I reread it -- but I had to pay sciencedirect or Elseiver or what every around $50. I may post the reference. This particular paper was not given to me by Levy, but parts were incorporated in the papers Levy sent.


I am becoming even more enthused about the value of MEGA dose vitamin B5.

I knew that MEGA dose vitamin B3 led to a pre-1970 book by A. Hoffer, MD, PhD. A book on schizophrenia that Lunes Payling read, and sparked his interest, and is why he coined the term "orthomolecular" nutrition. For while tiny amounts of B3 solved the "deficiency disease" (Pellegra), Pauling was fascinated that thousands of times more could be used to treat mental conditions - without any toxicity. I never really came close to understanding the mechanism of therapy, until Hoffer presented his theory in NIACIN: THE REAL STORY. And based on Hoffer's knowledge, as revealed in that book, a LOT of people may not have full-blown mental conditions, but they require niacin for significantly better mental health (Childhood ADHD is one example of a condition that would be easily corrected if it is caused by a Niacin deficiency. And it would be quite easy for parents to find out!) And anyone care to guess why Niacin can have such a profound effect on mental activity? Answer: Because the people that require more niacin have another genetic defect that Hoffer has traced and identified. Sound familiar?

As far as vitamin B5's affect on the adrenal cortix, and thus the production of steroid hormones, I hope to find out that Coenzyme A is a crucial key to that puzzle, and that "sloughing" out any dead adrenal cells, using DMSO, as well as using DMSO to reactive the Cortisol-requesting hormones in the brain (turned off by viruses by the way) removes my own dependency on cortisol. Time will tell. That would be something, perhaps not as amazing ad eDOC's fifty reversal of ESRD patients, that I will KNOW. I am working to titrate my cortisol down from the current full-replacement dosage.

I was shocked :shock: :shock: to say the least that high dose Pantethine (a direct Coenzyme A precursor) at a high dose did something in one day as far as Low T/ED! And if others are unafraid of such high doses, and have a similar immediate effect, I would welcome reading that news here.

The weight-loss aspect of vitamin B5 is a "side issue" (unless you have struggled with weight loss.) And if the knowledge is true and correct, that a symptom of a vitamin B5 deficiency is gaining weight, that would explain why EVERY diet eventually fails. People can lose weight, they simply bounce back to their original weight at some point. Usually because of hunger - which I can already verify goes away when you are on mega-B5. And adding mega-B5 would correct a failing in the Atkins-style diets. With B5 - the body more efficiently burns fat than it can burning carbohydrates. This "fact" is what puzzled the doctor who came up with this theory. When people move out of ordinary carb burning to fat burning, it is less efficient (without B5/Coenzyme A). He proved it on 100 people over the course of one year.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
My statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. Any product mentioned is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.”

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13303&start=60#p48532


ofonorow wrote:
And if others are unafraid of such high doses, and have a similar immediate effect, I would welcome reading that news here.




A plant based diet and loosing weight, as for example zarfas mostly suggests, couldn't help me. Since I've been my whole life very skinny and low-fat vegan since age 10, but still got a 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta at age 41.

Then it's 60% walking-disability gradually reversed with Pauling's therapy consistently through the last 9 years. On gofanu's report of good experiences with vitamin B5 and PAD, I increased B5 gradually up to 2 g per day (25% of it as pantethine). Maybe because of the still much lower than really high B5 doses, nevertheless, after 2 years on that much B5 my free testosterone did indeed improve for the first time in 9 years. From in average of 6 pg/ml to 10.3 (8.7 - 54.7 normal range. Still not breathtaking levels or an immediate effect, tough the direction is there which I otherwise couldn't explain. I'm in with this high dose experiment, though it'll take a month or 2, till I'm able to afford restocking on any further supplements.

PS: A correction, I've already been for 4 years on about 2 g/d of B5, till free testosterone normalized.

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13303&start=60#p48533



As Pauling points out in HTLLAFB - the need for all vitamins arose from genetic deletions (defects?) in our DNA. The red rice/yeast mold can manufacture EVERYTHING it needs except biotin. (From memory and will edit if wrong).

All humans effectively have a vitamin C genetic defect - GULO.

A substantial number of humans, but not all, have the genetic defect Hoffer identified -- and that can be corrected with mega dose Niacin.

Is the mega need for B5 dictated by yet another defect, it is apparently readily available in foods and plants? It is interesting that pamojja is skinny - perhaps simply from not having enough calories to store as fat - but that adding B5 may have increased his testosterone. So unless there is a "problem" pamojja that you are not sharing, I'm not sure what you might achieve with even higher dosages.

But to me, if American's are fat because the amount of B5 in foods is not enough to correctly metabolize fat (via coenzyme A), and that would also mean they are "deficient" in vitamin B5 - then we have a making of a theory behind what Zarfas is quoting. It would appear that the fatter you are, the less testosterone you have. The fat indicates a B5 deficiency. . And losing weight, taking the load off B5 metabolism, might help.

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13303&start=75

This is from eDOCs advice for combining with DMSO to address my adrenal malfunction..

eDoc wrote:7. I don’t think that you would require any supplements, since you already must be taking the needed ones, but I’d recommend, adding Silymarin, Glutathione, Selenium, and Pantothenic acid.

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/viewto ... 266#p47984

Note: I was taking the others - except for B5 (Pantothenic acid).

References to the Papers Dr. Levy sent to me

Pantethine, a derivative of vitamin B5, favorably alters total, LDL and non-HDL cholesterol in low to moderate cardiovascular risk subjects eligible for statin therapy: a triple-blinded placebo and diet-controlled investigation Malkanthi Evans, John A Rumberger, sao Azumano, Joseph J, Nolitano, Danielle Citrolo, Toshikazu Kamiya, Vascular Health and Risk Management, 27 February 2014.

Compared with placebo, the participants on pantethine showed a significant decrease in total cholesterol at 16 weeks (P=0.040) and LDL-C at 8 and 16 weeks (P=0.020 and P=0.006, respectively), and decreasing trends in non-high-density lipoprotein cholesterol at week 8 and week 12 (P=0.102 and P=0.145, respectively) that reached significance by week 16 (P=0.042). An 11% decrease in LDL-C from baseline was seen in participants on pantethine, at weeks 4, 8, 12, and 16, while participants on placebo showed a 3% increase at week 16.


Basically, Pantethine is like statins - lowers cholesterol - only SAFER and without side effects.



Pantethine Monograph, Alternative Medicine Review, Volume 15, Number 3, 2010 (All Rights Reserved)


A Stone that Kills two Birds: How Pantothenic Acid Unveils the Mysteries of Acne Vulgaris and Obesity Department of Surgery. Hong Kong Central Hospital. Hong Kong Lit-Hung Leung. M.D. Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine Vol. 12, No. 2, 1997

From the reference in the above paper, I ordered this Leung paper devoted to weight loss.

Leung, L H: Pantothenic acid as a weight-reducing agent: Fasting without hunger, weakness and ketosis. Med Hypoth 1995; 44: 403- 405.

From that paper there is a reference to this paper (which I haven't decided whether to purchase (from before I was born!)
Ralli E P, Durum M E. Relation of pantothenic acid to adrenal cortical function. Vitam Horm 1953; 11: 133-158.

Finally, my biochemist friend began researching how much better Pantethine may be for weight loss that ordinary vitamin B5 (and thus how much lower the dosage might be) but he filled a flash drive and i haven't had time to read the papers. He told me that for acne - where Leung used 10 g/day and cleared it up in 2 to 3 weeks - 1 to 2 grams of Pantethine accomplishes the same thing with far fewer pills. Cures acne. Our current pilot study on weight loss is trying to determine if there is indeed a 10 to 1 ratio of Pantethine to Panothenic Acid.


Things I'd like to know more about... hint hint

PANTHENOL

Currently Panethine powders come as 50% "something else".. eg. cellulose or silica. This is interfering with our putting it into a product. I see that you can get 100% Panthenol - but need to learn more about it,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthenol
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#2  Post by Joanna45 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:16 am

Owen
I am really interested in vitamin B5 I have been diagnosed with Morton's neurons in both feet ..but I'm not sure that is the correct diagnosis..and I was doing reasearch on Vit.B5 and it said a lack of it can cause burning in the toes which is what symptoms I have ..I have had cortisone shots which do not work..so if I was to start taking B5 what would you recommend as a starting dose. I would like to be part of the study ..I am not really over weight I'm 5'2" and weigh 125lbs but would like to lose at least 7lbs which I have been unable to do

Thanks
Joanna
Last edited by Joanna45 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#3  Post by tangy » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:30 am

I would like to be part of the study, I am obese and would like to lose weight. I can order B5 and get started in a week.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:50 am

Thank you both. Record your starting weight. Keep track of the daily dosage, and the type/brand of B5. We will be able to load the information into our online study tool in the very near future. (Work up to 10,000 mg of ordinary B5 daily, in 4 equal dosaages. We don't yet know the amount of Pantethine.)

In the meantime JOHNWEN - if you make it this far into this topic... I am trying to figure out what companies in the world manufacture Pantethine, before we go about trying to contract out. Apparently there are over 400,000 chemicals, and more than 150,000 chemical companies, etc.

You are usually very good at research... Unfortunately, our primary supplier (DSM - formerly Roche) does not manufacture pantethine.

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/D-Pantethine#section=Top

The only products that I have been able to find are more than half silica and cellulose. I infer that Pantethine is "sticky" so these additions are necessary to make the product flow. I kind of like the silica, because over the years many doctors have called to "educate" me on the heart health benefits of silica (and its relation to collagen and the ground substance.) At one point we even considered adding some to Cardio-C...

The cellulose is the problem, since cellulose is not digested. If the pantethine is sticking to the cellulose, then unless there is something in the digestive process that releases it, some/most/all might be pooped out with the rest of the cellulose... We would love a "pure" pantethine, but if that is not possible, then one with silica only, or perhaps joined with something "else"..


Edited - also Johnwen, here is a NOW foods description of ordinary B-5 - sounds like my ailments may be ALL a B5 deficiency, heh?

Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B-5) is a member of the B-complex family of vitamins and is found in nearly every living cell as a component of Coenzyme A (CoA). CoA is essential for the generation of energy from fat, carbohydrate, and protein.* It also plays a critical role in many biosynthetic reactions as well, being necessary for the production of fats, cholesterol, neurotransmitters, red blood cells, and adrenal secretions.* As such, Pantothenic Acid is vital for countless cell functions and the maintenance of healthy cellular metabolism.*
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#5  Post by exitium » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:38 am

Im going to start upping my B5 dose and see what happens.

While according to the BMI I am obese my bodyfat is not high. As a matter of fact knowing my BF and subtracting that weight from my total bodyweight and running that through a BMI calculator It sill considers me as obese at 0% bodyfat so I don't put any faith in it. I would however like to drop a few % BF so will give this a whirl.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:00 am

https://www.walkinlab.com/vitaminb5bloodtest.html Had a thought...we can run this $240!!!! b5 test and see whether the powder with "micro cellulose" is allowing the unstable (some sources said more stable) pantethine to enter the blood stream...
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#7  Post by Joanna45 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:15 am

Do we take the B5 first and then have the lab test done and also no labcorp labs near me

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#8  Post by Johnwen » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:55 am

I’m a little confused as to what your trying to accomplish here with B5??

I’ll let this quote from wiki show why the confusion.

Although pantethine can serve as a precursor for generation of vitamin B5 and consumption of therapeutic amounts of pantethine results in higher circulating concentrations of vitamin B5, this is not thought to be the mechanism of action. Vitamin B5 requirements are on the order of 5 mg/day. High doses of vitamin B5 do not result in the lipid changes seen with pantethine.
Two mechanisms of action are proposed for pantethine. In the first, pantethine serves as the precursor for synthesis of coenzyme A. CoA is involved in the transfer of acetyl groups, in some instances to attach to proteins closely associated with activating and deactivating genes. By this theory, either the genes responsible for cholesterol and triglyceride synthesis are suppressed or the genes governing the catabolism of compounds are turned on. In the second theory, pantethine is converted to two pantetheine molecules which are in turn metabolized to form two pantethenic acid and two cysteamine molecules. Cysteamine is theorized to bind to and thus inactivate sulfur-containing amino acids in liver enzymes involved in the production of cholesterol and triglycerides. What is known is that high doses of the related vitamin - pantothenic acid - has no effect on lipids.


So what is evidenced here is if you want to just lower cholesterol, Pantethine would be the way to go but to get the full benefits of B5 (Pantothenic acid)
Is the route to take.
Then you have Panthenol and Calcium and Sodium D-pantothenate which is a different but same story as Pantothenic acid. So saying B5 supplement is like saying “car” there’s so many variables involved.
Maybe this link to LPI (Org.-State U) may help you target on with what your really looking for it to do!!

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins ... henic-acid


BTW; You do know L-Carnosine nulls out Pantethine and renders it inactive!! Right???
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#9  Post by tangy » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:01 pm

ofonorow@ Should I take Pantethine or ordinary B5 and how much of either?

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#10  Post by zarfas » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:59 pm

Johnwen wrote:I’m a little confused as to what your trying to accomplish here with B5??

i am also

sayiung B5 increases fat loss is just saying you can lose more fat if you take gobs of pyruvate(t does, at a LITTLE at 30grams+ a day)

b5 mIGHT help give you clear skin
http://www.coenzyme-a.com/acne_vulgaris.html

How Much Pantothenic Acid?

In trying to determine the amount of pantothinic acid necessary to relieve acne patients of their symptoms, Pauling's experience with vitamin C provides a good guideline. Pauling had for a long time recommended vitamin C in high dosages to achieve optimal health. Radically different from what is recommended by the Food and Nutrition Board of the National Research Council (who recommended 60 mg daily). Pauling's recommended daily intake of vitamin C amounts to several grams a day. The recommendation was stepped up to 15-20 grams a day in his later years. Using these recommendations as a background, it becomes somewhat easier to arrive at a proper dosage for pantothentic acid in the treatment of acne vulgaris.
Pantothenic acid, which acquires its name from the Greek word meaning ubiquitous, is present in all tissues. Its universal presence is an indication of its importance. This is further reflected by the many reactions that it catalyzes. It should not come as a surprise then, that the amount of pantothenic acid required for optimal health, is of the same order of that of vitamin C. Based on this argument, the dose of pantothenic acid administered to the acne patients was up to 10 grams a day, and the result of these studies were first reported in Medical Hypotheses.

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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:10 pm

Joanna45 wrote:Do we take the B5 first and then have the lab test done and also no labcorp labs near me


Sorry for the confusion - no reason for anyone to take the lab test.. We are, lets say, "unhappy" with the only form of pantethine we can find to put in a product, e.g. bulk Pantethine powder, is sold as 50% wood chips - cellulose. Before we use the Pantethine powder - we just want to be assured it makes it into the blood stream. We are afraid that as a combined powder, it may not be absorbed because of the leaching to the indigestible cellulose. ( I saved the lab reference for myself for later reference. We will use the lab for our own in house testing.)

We already know that the NOW Foods Pantethine "works" so there is no reason to worry about blood or tissue levels.

You'll know that the Pantethine (2-6 g) or B5 (10 g) works because:

You will not be hungry or weak.
You will lose about 2.5 lbs per week, more if you reduce calories, especially sugars
You will not enter ketosis

As far as joining our weight loss study - simply record your starting weight, try to take 10 g ordinary vitamin B5 daily, or 4800 mg of NOW Pantethine daily (divided into 4 doses), and keep a log (which we will later transfer to the online study tool.) If you want to combine B5/Pantethine, okay, just record it.


Now on to johnwen's comments in the next post.
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:37 pm

All good points! The papers Dr. Levy sent me were focused on pantethine, (and I suspect this is because of the high amount of calcium that are in the "10 grams" dosages or ordinary vitamin B5 as calcium penathenate.) So the original objective was to see whether stimulating Coenzyme A, through superior B5 supplementation (and possibly much lesser Pantethine supplementation) would assist and help restore my own adrenal function.

One of the papers by Leung showed a common thread between Acne, fat metabolism and Coenzyme A. Leung's theory explains all the current contradictions in the current theories of acne. As a person enters purberty and adrenal hormone function begins or increases, more coA is needed, and the only limiting factor is vitamin B5. Leung has found that 10 grams given daily cures acne in 2-3 weeks (with some minor modifications depending on the case.) Today's orthomolecular doctors are able to do the same thing, cure acne in 2-3 weeks, but with only 1 to 2 grams of pantethine. The same CoA theory explains why diets fail - and as mentioned, he gave 100 people 10 g vitamin B5 for one year. NO SIDE EFFECTS. They all lost 2.5 lbs per week, were not hungry, were not weak, experienced a feeling of well being, and did not go into ketosis
.

Johnwen wrote:I’m a little confused as to what your trying to accomplish here with B5??


Adrenal restoration/regeneration - along with IV/DMSO.
Design a weight loss product around Dr.Leung's theory/discovery.


I’ll let this quote from wiki show why the confusion.

Although pantethine can serve as a precursor for generation of vitamin B5 and consumption of therapeutic amounts of pantethine results in higher circulating concentrations of vitamin B5, this is not thought to be the mechanism of action. Vitamin B5 requirements are on the order of 5 mg/day. High doses of vitamin B5 do not result in the lipid changes seen with pantethine.


The point being made here depends on what the dosage of b5 is. The 5 mg/day is probably less that what is in the food supply. The idea that the "requirement is on the order of 5 mg/day" is the issue. I have a feeling that we can live with 5 to 7 mg, but like vitamin C, living on these tiny amounts only creates large hospital bills and fat people. So what is the "high doses" of B5 that do not result in the lipid changes seen with Pantethine? I didn't read it. If Pantethine is 10 TIMES ordinary B5, then this statement is only accurate if B5 at 10 TIMES the Pant was tested for the effect on lipids. A little birdie within me doubts it.

Two mechanisms of action are proposed for pantethine. In the first, pantethine serves as the precursor for synthesis of coenzyme A. CoA is involved in the transfer of acetyl groups, in some instances to attach to proteins closely associated with activating and deactivating genes. By this theory, either the genes responsible for cholesterol and triglyceride synthesis are suppressed or the genes governing the catabolism of compounds are turned on. In the second theory, pantethine is converted to two pantetheine molecules which are in turn metabolized to form two pantethenic acid and two cysteamine molecules. Cysteamine is theorized to bind to and thus inactivate sulfur-containing amino acids in liver enzymes involved in the production of cholesterol and triglycerides. What is known is that high doses of the related vitamin - pantothenic acid - has no effect on lipids.


Maybe. What are high doses of B5? From my biochemist friend's analysis - Pantethine is "almost" coenzyme A, and there is less work necessary to create conezyme A from pantethine. (I still have a flash drive of his papers to go through.) The above is speculation based on the assumption that pantothenic acid has no affect on lipids. That's like saying coenzyme A has no effect on lipids - which I of little knowledge know to be false.

So what is evidenced here is if you want to just lower cholesterol, Pantethine would be the way to go but to get the full benefits of B5 (Pantothenic acid)
Is the route to take.

Certaintly a LESSER (or is that LESSOR?) amount of Pantethine.

Then you have Panthenol and Calcium and Sodium D-pantothenate which is a different but same story as Pantothenic acid. So saying B5 supplement is like saying “car” there’s so many variables involved.


Exactamundo. However, the end point. i.e., what we seek based on Leung's theory, is the creation of more Coenzyme A. (From that chemical web site, Calcium and Sodium are added to stabilize the highly volatile D-pantothenate. People fear sodium, sigh, so calcium is the major form produced. ) Panthenol is on my list. And we are about to order a liposomal form too..

Step #1 will be measuring blood levels.. (To bad there is not a B-5 meter like there is a glucose meter than can measure vitamin C.) But we can also use weight loss to help estimate the dosage with trial by error. If the subject on a ketogenic diet goes into ketosis - they are not getting enough CoA.


Maybe this link to LPI (Org.-State U) may help you target on with what your really looking for it to do!!

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins ... henic-acid


Thanks, I have adrenal malfunction, anemia, and low cholesterol... All signs of a B5 deficiency according to the expert at NOW foods.
Image
BTW; You do know L-Carnosine nulls out Pantethine and renders it inactive!! Right???

No, I didn't know that. How do you know ?

Went looking... so far http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/25668941 Deceleration of cataract development in rats under the action of N-acetylcarnosine and D-pantethine mixture

Note, I've responded in an earlier post to joanna and others - no need for lab tests in our study - just keep track of dosages and weight loss numbers.
Owen R. Fonorow, Follow #OWENRFONOROW at twitter

Joanna45
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#13  Post by Joanna45 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:09 am

Owen
The only B5 I could find was pantothenic acid in 500mg tablets as calicium pantothenic.with cellulose and silica as the other ingredients..also it was $18 for 60 tablets this could get quite expensive I would think..


Joanna45
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Re: Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) - The Anti-Fat Vitamin?

Post Number:#15  Post by Joanna45 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:53 am

Thank you Owen will order this today..will take the B that I bought a few days ago till gone..


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